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Author Topic:   Ophiuchus the 13th Sign
sevannah
Knowflake

Posts: 1
From: Canada
Registered: May 2009

posted March 24, 2009 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sevannah     Edit/Delete Message
I was just wondering what your thoughts on this were. Do you think it effects or changes astrology as we know it? Do you see it being incorportated into the current astrological wheel? I'm just curious to know what you all think and if you feel this has an impact on astrology and the signs as we know it? I mean would this explain some aspects in our charts that currently may not make sense in our own charts?

------------------
Sun: Aquarius
Moon: Aquarius
Venus: Aquarius
Mercury: Aquarius
Mars: Taurus
Rising: Cancer

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 163
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 24, 2009 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Not really.

There are so many astrological systems.
Vedic Astrologers use the Sidereal Zodiac. Even though most Western Astrologers use the outerplanets, most of them don't.
They also nakshatras which are connected to the actual fixed star energies.


Many tropical zodiac astrologers use the fixed stars even though they don't use the constellation zodiac. I believe that if you use fixed stars,then why not use the actual constellation zodiacs. If the fixed star of a constellation has an influence on a planet/angle, then the constellation of the star should have an influence on the planet/angle too. That would be a logical conclusion.


There are 13 constellations on the the ecliptic which we know as the zodiac with Ophiuchus included which both the sidereal and tropical zodiacs don't account for. Also the Scorpion is the smallest of the constellations by far. The Virgin is the largest of the constellations. Even though my Sun is in tropical Scorpio,my Sun is not in the Libra constellation, it is in the Virgin constellation. I was born on October 29th. The last day that the Sun is in the Virgin constellation is October 30th. Spica, the alpha star of Virgo,is my heliacal rising star.

That's something that I point out to Cyril Fagan Sidereal Astrologers who start with Eris-type arguments of "I am using the right zodiac,and your're using the wrong zodiac". Even when I do that, they still maintain their argument. I know one that is just like that. They don't listen to reason. The tropical zodiac is a season-based zodiac any way. It has nothing to do with the constellations. However, the tropical zodiac is a northern hemisphere season-based zodiac, and I believe that using it for people born in the southern hemisphere is illogical. I believe that they probably benefit from a constellation zodiac chart.

My Mercury is in tropical Scorpio,and it is in alignment with the beta star of Libra Zuben Eschamali. Astrologers would say that star has an influence on my Mercury. If that is the case, then the Libra constellation should have an influence on my Mercury.

My Moon is in tropical Pisces, and it is in alignment with the alpha star of Aquarius, Sadalmelik. Astrologers would say that star has an influence on my Moon. If that is the case,then the Aquarius constellation should have an influence on my Moon.

My Ascendant is in tropical Virgo, and it is in alignment with a Leo star, Coxa. Astrologers would say that star has an influence on my Ascendant. If that is the case,then the Leo constellation should have an influence on my Ascendant.

My Midheaven is in tropical Gemini,and it is in alignment with the alpha star of Taurus,Aldebaran. Astrologers would say that star has an influence on my Midheaven. If that is the case, then the Taurus constellation should have an influence on my Midheaven.

My Imum Coeli is in tropical Sagittarius, but it is in Ophiuchus. It is in alignment with the alpha star of the Scorpion,Antares. That gets tricky. That is out of constellation conjunction.

also many stars are far off the ecliptic.
My Moon is in alignment with the alpha star of Pisces Austrinus, Fomalhaut. I am not sure if my Moon is influenced by the Pisces Austrinus constellation.

My Venus is in alignment with the alpha star of Serpentis,Unukalhai. I am not sure if my Venus is influenced by the Serpentis constellation.

I do believe that we can be a blend of the tropical zodiac and constellation signs.

Diana Rosenberg talks about the constellations and and their blending with tropical zodiac signs

the follow is from Diana Rosenberg's site

The sky itself, with its majestic star-set figures, is the root of every astrologer’s knowledge and craft; without an understanding of why and how these glorious star-emblazoned constellation shapes were created, established, and carried down to us through thousands of years, we risk remaining narrow and unsophisticated in our delineation of nativities. Now at last, at the end of the 20th century of the Common Era - more than 5,000 years after the scribes of Sumer first recorded the extraordinarily ancient wisdom that had been passed down to them by memory-chanters - our computers, data collections, and the recovery and translation of ancient texts have made it possible to rediscover, analyze, and test our great heritage of star-knowledge that was once known only to the most learned priests of the earliest civilizations.

Perhaps the most extraordinary discovery is that there is nothing casual or coincidental in the constellational sky - every constellation, (including those of the "Sphaera Barbarica" - the figures above and below the ecliptic that are not part of the zodiac), indeed, each posture, position, length and breadth of every figure, has its reason and message. These energies are still operating, and may be taken and used in the day-to-day counseling of a modern astrologer!

Gradually, over more than two thousand years, the Zodiac of Signs, that is, of our familiar tropical degrees, has shifted backward, largely bypassing the ancient sky figures that gave them their original names and identities, and now overlaying the star-figures that once preceded each of them. Our familiar division of 12 equal signs, each 30° in length, came into being in Babylonia some time in the early 5th century BCE, apparently designed to jibe with an already existing calendar of 12 months of 30 days each. The earliest known horoscope, without houses or aspects (except conjunctions), is dated April 29 410 BC, at Babylon; the positions of Sun, Moon, and planets were defined only by the constellations they were in. By the time of Hipparchus, however (2nd century BCE), the equinoxes and solstices were slipping noticeably out of sync with the beginnings of the constellations they were identified with. Hipparchus (fl. 146-127 BCE) realized the implications of this phenomenon, discerning the process known as the precession of the equinoxes, whereby the Vernal Equinox - the point at which the Sun on its apparent course defining the ecliptic, crosses the celestial equator each spring, moving backwards (or westward - to the right on a star map) through the stars at the rate of 1° every 72 years. The 5th-century BCE calendar of Athenian astronomer Euctemon was based upon the solstices and equinoxes, naming each month by its sky sign and offering Hipparchus a structure based upon the actual seasons rather than the ancient figures in the sky. This we now know as the tropical zodiac.

By the time of Ptolemy (2nd century CE) the signs were "off" by 8° against the backround of their corresponding constellation patterns, and a choice had to be made: whether to stay with the sky figures, or to count in twelve 30° segments from the gradually precessing Vernal Equinox. For the most part, the Greeks stayed with the 4-cornered structure of the seasons, i.e. the sol-stices & equinoxes, and let the actual sky-figures gradually shift from away from their former seasonal places. But at the same time they kept the constella-tions' traditional names, assigning them to the new, gradually-moving tropical signs. This is the system we in the west have inherited: 12 equally sized signs, beginning with 0° Aries, where the ecliptic crosses the celestial equator.

Even though the venerable constellation star-figures have been bypassed, each one overlaid with the sign that originally followed it, these archaic "pictures in the sky" retain and maintain an influence and power, not only in the symbolic, "mythic" areas of our lives, but in a physical way as well. To a surprising degree, the outer frame, shape, and condition of our physical bodies, and the enveloping myths that we enact in each lifetime, are derived from these primordial figures; they represent the personal incarnational drama each of us enacts, every day, in each lifetime.

Our tropical zodiac sign of Taurus, was originally the sky figure of the Bull; but now, each year, as the Sun moves through tropical Taurus (the sign, not the constellation) it is actually traveling through a skyscape of the stars of the Ram. And those of us who call ourselves "Aries" were actually born when the Sun traversed the Fishes. In just this way, each tropical sign now largely overlays the star figure (or morpheme) that originally lay behind it. Just as tropical Taureans have backed up onto the Ram, tropical Aries swim with the Fishes; tropical Pisceans have moved in on the figure of the Water-Pourer; tropical Aquarians now brave the stormy waves with the Sea-Goat, tropical Capricorns ride the back of the half-human, half-equine Archer, tropical Sagittarians attempt to tame the menacing Scorpion, tropical Scorpios nest in the Scales of Justice (which were, even very far back, both Scales & the great Scorpion's extended claws). Tropical Librans now find their balance in the midst of the magnificent Virgin-goddess, tropical Virgoans have taken over the body & tail of the lion, but still possess the upper part of the head of the Virgin; tropical Leos, while still hanging on to the head and forepaws of the original Lion (hear them roar!), have the earlier 2/3 of their sign in the cautious, self-protective Crab; tropical Cancers now envelop the Twin brothers, tropical Geminis have bravely taken over the thundering, sensual Bull of Heaven, and we are back to where the zodiac started: the Bull, leader of the great cycle of signs from about 4,500 BCE (or about 3,000 BCE, depending upon whether you start the figure of the Bull at its horns, or its famous Royal eye), until about 2,300 BCE. Brilliant, red royal star Aldebaran, the Bull's South Eye (now 9Gem43), marked the vernal equinox at the time that the first system of writing developed in Sumer (southern Iraq) at about 3,300 BCE. (Exactly opposite the Bull's Eye, at 9Sag41, is red Antares, the fierce, royal Heart of the Scorpion).

These overlays, confusing at first, become enlightening when we search for the deeper layers of astrology's primeval sources. For while I persist in the belief that the tropical zodiac is the most useful for day to day interpretation of horoscopes, I believe that it is the ancient sky-pattern figures - the actual constellations - that reveal the "fated" or mytho-symbolic level of our lives. Fate is a harsh word, conjuring images of helplessness, passivity, "what's-the-use-of-trying" emotions; but the actuality is that the soul, in each lifetime, has chosen a body, sexual polarity, set of parents, locale, schooling, economic situation, and formative matrix that will best nurture the spirit and carry it forward in the direction it has chosen to explore.

It has been my experience in counseling that the most meaningful and exciting reactions from my clients come when I describe the constellation patterns and individual fixed stars on their charts (usually at the end of the reading). There is often a profound, personal emotional response that resonates on a "life-myth" level of being. Often a client’s deepest conflicts are delineated by the difference between the archetypes of the tropical signs and the original constellations: the variance, for instance, between proud, courageous tropical Leo, and his underlying sensitive, cautious, vulnerable star-Crab; or the tropical sign of Cancer, home-loving, self-protective, careful; but now fully overlaying the original Gemini siblings, who were rollicking, daring, athletic adventurers! It is the task of each of us to find ways to reconcile these differences and make them work creatively in our lives. Many Cancers, for instance, become actors, writers, or filmmakers, permitting themselves the vicarious experience of danger and adventure while actually remaining quite snug and safe, while others translate Cancer’s love of home to love of homeland, and become super-patriotic, adventuresome test pilots, astronauts, or Olympic athletes!

It was the realization that the original sky-figures carry powerful messages of the symbolic and mythic elements of our lives that led me to dig deep into astrology’s roots, to seek out the earliest sources of these ancient constellations and to rediscover and analyze their energies.
http://ye-stars.com/tmacons.htm

The Libra constellation was once the claws of a much larger Scorpion constellation.


Raymond


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katatonic
Knowflake

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Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 24, 2009 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
13th sign? do tell, this is a new one on me!

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 163
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 24, 2009 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Ophiuchus is the sign that is being referred to as the 13th sign.

It's located between the Scorpion and Sagittarius.
Technically, it's the 9th constellation in the ecliptic longitude zodiac.
http://www.geocities.com/astrologyzodiacs/realsolarzodiac.htm

Raymond

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sevannah
Knowflake

Posts: 1
From: Canada
Registered: May 2009

posted March 25, 2009 08:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sevannah     Edit/Delete Message
Oh wow! Thanks Raymond! I'll have to take some time and read through all of that again and the link you provided is awesome! Now I have even more questions! LOL how aquarian of me! LOL So now I wonder if all the right adjustments were made how that would impact astrology as we know it today? Also, I would love to do a chart for myself with the 13 signs inclusive to see how it differs and if it's more accurate. Is this available on astro? and what about interps for Ophiuchus? Many thanks for taking the time for such a detailed reply!

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It's just another day in the life of Aquarius.

Sun: Aquarius
Moon: Aquarius
Venus: Aquarius
Mercury: Aquarius
Mars: Taurus
Rising: Cancer

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snohawk1
unregistered
posted March 25, 2009 09:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message
No, this doesn't change anything, it's just a new name for the same thing we already know.

Sounds lame to me, they even downgraded Aquarius or Water "Carrier" since whatsitsname now is the serpent "Bearer". Just some new age crap. I mean.. Scorpius..

Don't look at the names look at the sky, that's what I say.

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 163
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 26, 2009 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

That's not true.

It's not a new name

I was also wrong about the order of the constellation zodiac. Aquarius is last zodiac constellation.

The following is from Dr. Shepherd Simpson

The Thirteenth Sign? Ophiuchus is often mistakenly called the 'thirteenth sign of the zodiac' because the sign is thought of as an additional sign to the the twelve Tropical or Sidereal signs.

In fact, Ophiuchus is a Sun-sign in the Real Solar Zodiac, i.e. the Sun can be seen against the stars of Ophiuchus between 30th November and 17th December each year. [The dates of the cusps move a little from one year to the next, so sometimes they are quoted as 1st December to 18th December.] Aquarius, the Water Carrier, is the actual 13th, and last, sign of the Real Solar Zodiac.

Northern celestial hemisphere constellation map showing the sun sign of Ophiuchus between Scorpius and Sagittarius

Ophiuchus the Sun sign. The curved line marked with degree signs is the Ecliptic. The Ecliptic, the Sun's path through the heavens as seen from Earth, runs through Ophiuchus from about 245 to 265° away from the Vernal Equinox. This means that the Sun can be seen against the stars of Ophiuchus from 30th November to 17th December

Ophiuchus in the Planetary Zodiac: As Ophiuchus is a Sun-sign it is also a member of the Planetary Zodiac and the Lunar Zodiac, i.e. as well as the Sun, the planets and the Moon can frequently be seen against the stars of Ophiuchus, from the view point of the Earth.

The planet Pluto could be found in Ophiuchus until the end of 2003, after which it passed into Serpens Cauda, the Serpent's Tail. The Centaur object, the minor planetoid Chiron, was visible against the stars of Ophiuchus until November 2001, after which it passed over the border into Sagittarius. Venus and Mercury can be found in Ophiuchus for a time each year. Shown right is an example of a star chart for Pluto in Ophiuchus in June 1999.

So why isn't Ophiucus in the Commonly-Used Western Zodiac? Ophiuchus is an Ancient Greek constellation. The Serpent Bearer is one of the original Ptolemy constellations, appearing in Al Magest Star Catalogue [c 130 - 170 AD]. He also appears on the Farnese Globe, a Roman copy of a circa 2nd century BC depiction of Atlas holding the Celestial Sphere above his head. So why isn't Ophiuchus a member of the standard astrological zodiac - the Tropical Zodiac?

Good question! Ophiuchus is a Sun-sign. The Moon and planets all are seen against the stars of Ophiuchus. Unfortunately, the answer to the question is that Ophiuchus isn't in the Tropical Zodiac not because there is something wrong with Ophiuchus but because there is something wrong with the Tropical Zodiac. The Tropical Zodiac is an inaccurate oversimplification of the heavens dating from a time when we did not have telescopes or computers. Follow the Zodiac Wheels link for a description of the history of the Zodiacs.
http://www.geocities.com/astrologyconstellations/ophiuchus.htm

Raymond

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snohawk1
unregistered
posted March 26, 2009 09:39 PM           Edit/Delete Message
It doesn't matter if the name is new or not, that's not the point, it's that it's different than our norm (tropical).

And like I said, don't look at the name, look at the sky. So don't *add a new sign, and think you're a pro* look at the individuality of the placement in the sky of every placement, instead of just Scorpio or whatever.

I don't see placements for just their signs, I actually have a book called *the secret language of birthdays* which has a writeup for the personality of each day in the year. I often look at the degree possibilities of a birthday, look at a placement in a chart, and read the book for those (usually three) days in which it would be possible to have someone born with there sun that same degree.

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