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Author Topic:   Pluto in the 4th or 5th.........
Cynnared
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posted May 01, 2009 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynnared     Edit/Delete Message
I'm having a hard time figuring this out for my own chart. In Koch it is in the 4th and in Plac it is in the 5th house. I don't think the Pluto in the 5th house description works for me but then I have attracted men with Venus square Pluto.

My childhood home was a major nightmare and many control and power trips when I was growing up. I had a very cruel and mean stepfather who would take things out on me.

Any ideas on trying to figure this out who be appreciated! Thank you

Cynn

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MyVirgoMask
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posted May 01, 2009 08:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MyVirgoMask     Edit/Delete Message
Power trips growing up might put Pluto in the 4th. I have known a couple of people with Pluto in the 4th with similar issues.
I don't like Plac and prefer Equal or Koch. Even Whole House/Sign. My Pluto is in the 6th with Plc and in the 5th otherwise....who knows. I think in the end it's what you identify with the most (probably)

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Cynnared
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posted May 01, 2009 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynnared     Edit/Delete Message
When I learned astrology I always saw Plac houses. I got my chart done up by a few Astrologers and they used Koch. The only time I have used equal houses is for solar charts when I don't know the birth time.

I know when I was a teen, I tried so hard to leave my home - I was always over at my grandparent's place. My mom would terribly scold me for being over there but I felt safer with the old folks and had peace there. At my mom's place there was a lot of emotional, mental, psychological abuse. There were too many kids at home.

Hmm I think back to when my folks divorced and transiting Saturn was in Virgo about to conjunct my Pluto in Virgo. (later one Saturn will hit Pluto again at 27 degrees of Virgo. I'm not sure what that will mean and or what houses it will effect....


Cynn

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MyVirgoMask
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posted May 01, 2009 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MyVirgoMask     Edit/Delete Message
Feeling safer with older folks sounds Capricorn-ish. I have Cappy on my MC and NN, and I feel that same around much older people and always have.

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Cynnared
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posted May 01, 2009 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynnared     Edit/Delete Message
I was extremely close to my maternal grandparents. Well after the divorce, they were all I had cause my mom went chasing after men. I have Moon trine Neptune that would show something like a surrogate mother.

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mblover
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posted May 01, 2009 09:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mblover     Edit/Delete Message
Do you fear your mother when she tries to come close to you or tries to control you? If so, Pluto would like to be around 4th more than 5th.

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Cynnared
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posted May 01, 2009 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynnared     Edit/Delete Message
My cancer moon always desired to have a close relationship with my mom. Any problem I had she would severely rake me over the coals and berate me. She thoughts I should never have any problems..... I think she hated being a parent and didn't want me around.....

I think my mom is a joke now....

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Geocosmic* Valentine
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posted May 01, 2009 10:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Geocosmic* Valentine     Edit/Delete Message
Hello Cynnared,

I could never tell you which one to use without seeing your chart or you providing your birthdata. There could be other planets in the 4th suggesting the nightmare childhood or rulers to your 4th House, to your Moon, all kinds of other things. I use Tropical Placidus so I think that if I saw your chart I could find the symbolism describing your life developmental tensions and whether it fits 4th House of 5th House.

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Cynnared
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posted May 01, 2009 10:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynnared     Edit/Delete Message
My father scared me way more than my mother. I lived in fear from my father and my mother was just nasty emotionally.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/3493116380_bd6a9b58ee.jpg?v=0

This is the equal house chart.Placidus shows Pluto in the 5th. I haven't used the equal houses that much with my own chart....

Cynn

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MyVirgoMask
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posted May 02, 2009 02:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MyVirgoMask     Edit/Delete Message
Geo, what if the 4th house is intercepted and the ruler of it peregrine, as well as there being no planets in there?
I'm curious.

Cynn, Uranus in the 4th too? I guess that would show a degree of instability as far as the home life in childhood?

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Glaucus
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posted May 02, 2009 04:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Your t-square of Mars square Sun-Uranus opposition indicates experiencing the father as potentially impulsive,quicktempred unstable,aggressive..even violent


on a hunch, I checked to see if your Sun is in hard aspect(conjunct,opposition,square,semisquare)sesquiquadrate to one of the big kuiper belt objects in regards to trauma and/or abuse
With Leo Imum Coeli(4th house cusp), your Sun is your 4th house ruler...so aspects involving the Sun indicate not only matters with the father figure but also the domestic environment in general

I also had a hunch that you have a big kuiper belt object making a hard aspect to your Imum Coeli in regards to trauma and/or abuse. Imum Coel is the domestic environment,roots,past


You have 4th house ruler Sun conjunct the kuiper belt dwarf planet plutoid, Eris in 12'21 Aries with 54 minutes of arc. That means that you have Sun-Eris in opposition to Uranus,and Mars squares that. A t-square. That configuration indicates that you experienced your father figure as well as your domestic environment as full of discord,strife,controversy. As transneptunian, it's highly metaphysical to the point that the energy can be hard to handle.....it can feel deeply karmic. hard kuiper belt aspects can indicate a certain type of trauma and/or abuse too.


Kuiper Belt dwarf planet plutoid, Makemake in 13'19 Leo is conjunct your Imum Coeli with 1'27 orb. That could indicate a lot of intensity,deeply karmic issues,and possible trauma,abuse and/or abuse involving the homelife

Your Moon semisquares Kuiper belt dwarf planet plutoid, Haumea with 41 minutes of arc, and that could indicate possible issues with the mother.


I checked the declinations because they are important.

You have kuiper belt dwarf planet Pluto parallel the Imum Coeli with 28 minutes of arc, and that indicates intensity,power issues as well as possible trauma and/or abuse involving the domestic environment. This is similar to Pluto in 4th. It's possible that you do have Pluto in 5th, but you feel that you have Pluto in 4th because Pluto parallels your Imum Coeli which is the 4th house cusp.

You have Saturn parallel the Imum Coeli with 25 minutes of arc, and that indicates that there was a lot of control, restrictions,limitations involving the domestic environment.

You have Moon contraparallel Mars with 11 minutes of arc, and that can indicate conflict with the mother.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.


You're a highly kuiper belt person

You even have Sun trine Makemake with 4 minutes of arc, Mars quincunx Makemake with 4 minutes of arc, Venus trine Ixion with 43 minutes of arc, Ixion sesquiquadrate Ascendant with 25 minutes of arc,Mercury oppose Quaoar with 21 minutes of arc.

Your chart ruler Mercury conjunct Sedna with 0 minutes of arc is amazing! wow!

here is stuff on the kuiper belt objects http://www.philipsedgwick.com/


I could relate to a lot of that stuff that you talked about. Like you, I am heavy in kuiper belt energy including strong hard aspects involving kuiper belt objects. I was verbally,physically abused by my mother and stepfather. The homelife was very dysfunctional. I have a t-square involving a luminary like you, but mine involves the Moon. I was more scared of my mom because of her mental,emotional instability..especially her temper.


Raymond

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
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posted May 02, 2009 04:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
I want to add a few more things

Your Sun squares 2002 AW197 in 12'32 Cancer with 42 minutes of arc.


actually....AW197 completes a grand cross with your Sun,Mars,Uranus t-square


AW197 is another big kuiper belt object, but it hasn't been named yet. It's minor planet number is 55565


Philip wrote the following preliminary keywords for it. He finds clues by looking at the heliocentric north node and the perihelion of the object at the time of its discovery as well as any astronomical,orbital features


55565 (2002 AW197) - Orbital Period: 325.50 yr.

Positive: Resourceful, able to manage the mundane. A magical sense of alchemy. A shamanic knowing of the relationship of energy and matter.

Negative: Greedy, manipulative via monetary means, financially controlling.

Mundane: Financial fraud, black magic, fiscal exploitation.

Ceremonial: Prosperity ceremonies, energy work, moving matter with vibration for a benefic result.
http://www.philipsedgwick.com/


You also have Moon quincunx 2002 TX300 in 25'41 Aquarius with 50 minutes of arc, and that could indicate possible issues with the mother too.


TX300 is also a big kuiper belt object but is not named yet


here are preliminary keywords from Philip Sedgwick

55636 (2002 TX300) - Orbital Period: 283.15 yr.

Positive: Acceptance of one's personality quirks. Innovative. Free thinking. Highly spirited. Eccentric. Adventurous.

Negative: Always comparing self to others, competitive to the point of being willing to steal another person's thunder or inventions. Sullen. Solipsistic.

Mundane: Inventions, self realization tools - books, programs, etc. Intellectual property. Pioneers.

Ceremonial: Sacred time to "listen" to the Universe and conceive greater notions. Creative process ceremonies. Any ceremony involving electrical devices, lightning or nerve stimulation.
http://www.philipsedgwick.com/


I hope that helps

Raymond



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Cynnared
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posted May 02, 2009 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynnared     Edit/Delete Message
Holy crow! I'm in awe with your insights! I never studied the Kuiper belt objects and this is a whole new thing for me. Not sure what the Kuiper objects mean but I'll have that figured out in time. I think I have questions but I don't know where to start.

What is the significance of Sedna conj mercury?

Thank you soooooooooooooooooo much Glaucus!

Cynn

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
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posted May 02, 2009 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
You're very welcome.


Sedna is named after Inuit Seagoddess who was the victim of her father. He threw her off his boat. She clung to the boat,and he chopped off her fingers which turned into sea animals. She sank down into the depths of the ocean.


Sedna seems to be Neptune-like,but more otherworldly,remote in its influence. I think of Sedna as "out of this world"

according to Roy MacKinnon:

Victim, sacrifice sometimes unavoidable: transformation of victimhood – losses, possibly emotional, in mundane house where Sedna is, particularly if afflicted: inevitable fate – destiny: not of this world – worlds in collision – not of this culture, not of this time: uncovering that which is hidden, remote, unseen: concealed and acting unseen in an inky blackness: search for new knowledge in an alien world: issues around preservation of that which is untouched, essential, numinous: purposeful activity fuelled by a burning inner spiritual drive not of the personality: superconscious perception which incorporates a multi-dimensional mystical universe: far-sighted intelligence: misperception of reality – delusional, self-deception: release of soul to the world of spirit in the process of dying: psychic/mediumistic – this world connected to the other: the suffering of the unloved, outcast, sick, homeless, limbless: Noah's ark – preservation of what would otherwise become extinct: buried alive – entombed: Thy Will, not my will: essence not personality: preservation of nature and ecosystems: receptive to a spiritual calling from afar: the power of water: in this world but not of it. http://zanestein.com/keywords.html#Sedna


according to Philip Sedgwick:

Sedna's influence appeared in the bowl of chili severed finger incident, a finger in custard incident, punishment of primarily female members in the military for the Abu Graib scandal and (hopefully more joyfully) in Tim Burton's anifilm, The Corpse Bride.

Sedna - She is the first body to bear the mythology of the arctic's Inuit culture. Orbital Period: 11,013.05 yr.

Positive - a forgiving disposition, discernment, clarity of perception, recognition of free will and choice, responsible, conscious of consequence, far thinking, dharma-oriented, does the homework of life

Negative - victimization, abuse, being deceived, history of betrayal, bitterness, “gold digging” attitude in relationship, transfers blame to others, numbs out, goes unconscious

Mundane - blubber, products made from sea mammals, whaling, diving bells that go into the dark of the sea, emotional healing, forgiveness, sorrow, engagement, masks, flight of the birds

Ceremonial - cleansing in the sea, propitiation to the sea, sea creatures, use of sea creature talismans (walrus tusk carvings, scrimshaw), ceremony with masks of sea creatures, ceremonial masks in general
http://www.philipsedgwick.com/


Philip Sedgwick referred to the transneptunian objects as intensified evolutionary objects.


"Last weekend while doing a workshop on the TNO’s with emphasis on Charon, UB313 and Sedna, a term slipped out of my mouth that I am going to coin and propagate as an archetype. Many, if not all of the dwarf planets, especially the plutonian ones (not sure if that’s capitalized or not) create a category of astrological influences to be called EIO’s - Evolutionary Intensified Objects. Evolutionary suggests that emotional and spiritual crisis induced by the presence and passage of these bodies intends to enhance the insight, inspiration, creativity and consciousness of a person on Earth and through events on Earth containing these bodies in significant locations." http://www.philipsedgwick.com/StarBlogs/Archives/2006/Redefinition_~_24_Aug_2006.htm

Albert Einstein had Mercury conjunct Sedna with 17 minutes of arc, and I think that it fit with his "out of this world" thinking. This could reflect his multimensional thought processes that helped him go beyond the barriers of time and space to understand the theory of relativity as well as physics in general. He had actually had a close conjunction of Mercury,Saturn,and Sedna. Albert Einstein is thought to have been neurodivergent,and he did have speech delays/problems. (some believe that he was Dyslexic, some believe that he had ADD, and some believe that he had Aspergers or high functioning autism). I don't like people being posthumously labeled as having neurodivergence though. There is no doubt that he was definitely an outside the box thinker which fits transneptunians like Sedna big time.


Raymond

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Cynnared
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posted May 02, 2009 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynnared     Edit/Delete Message
MyVirgoMask

Well I moved around 40 times in my life and alot in childhood. We would spend a few years in one place and then move. In my adult life I have found some stability, home wise and I have been living where I am since June 2003!

Glaucus,

Are there any more TNP/Kuiper sites out there on the beginner level?

Cynn

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Glaucus
Knowflake

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From: Sacramento,California
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posted May 02, 2009 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

Lets see

here is some astronomy stuff in regards to Kuiper Belt objects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt

astrology stuff http://www.zanestein.com/chiron_a.htm http://www.thegreenduck.com/ka/NewPlanets/index.shtml http://www.bristolschoolofastrology.com/ http://markandrewholmes.com/asteroid.html


there is not really much


Raymond

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Cynnared
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posted May 03, 2009 11:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cynnared     Edit/Delete Message
I was thinking to Pluto in the 5th - power struggles over children. This is what I have with my ex - he wants all the power and control in regards to the care of our daughter and harasses me terribly cause I have day to day care and control. But where I live is right on my pluto line.

Still trying to figure this out......

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