posted June 07, 2009 03:52 PM         

Don't get me wrong, I believe in love terribly. I believe in the deepest most Piscean love. I think love is the best thing we humans have going for us. Yet I think it is silly to try to contain love in a box. And I do not believe monogamy-whether sexual or emotional, is natural or usual (though I have a high belief in honesty, which at times is hard for people-funny huh?). Though I'm not saying its impossible.

The institution of marriage was founded upon financial/material security and the reproduction of our species/continuation of family. In many many cultures it was also the only legal/socially accepted way to have sex and for most cultures it has always held an idea of ownership-mostly a man owning his wife, especially his wife's body. It has to do with Scorpio and debts: a sexual/reproductive debt was owed by a woman and in exchange she and/or her family would get security/money, etc. Though some of this has changed slightly in many cultures, the underlying principles of two people "owning" each other and financial security and reproduction haven't.

It has nothing to do with love, equality, etc. Across cultures it has always had to do with the same thing. I think in this culture, with our freedom to choose who to marry, people have deluded themselves into thinking marriage is really about love. We see in other cultures, like Sweden, that when the state provides well for families (VERY LONG PATERNITY AND MATERNITY leaves, health care, child care, and other social benefits) that people DO NOT get married. They fall in and out of love, they have children whether they cohabit or not (though most of them do) and they are just as happy (I would argue happier). There is not a big social push to get married from families either (like other European cultures), perhaps because finances are taken care of. There is more equality, freedom and love. Also, the church isn't big there and so they don't get ridiculously immature ideas about sex stuffed down their throats.

It seems there's a big emphasis on something that in this day of age, in this country, is simply unnecessary. I do not want to be part of something that was founded on, and still stands for, grotesque principles. I believe in love. Legal/financial contracts can always be enacted if necessary-outside of marriage. A woman can almost always have a child if she wishes, and her reproductive system is sound.

I find it shocking that many women/girls who have contemplated/determined every detail of what type of dress they will have on their wedding day, or what type of venue it will be held, are simultaneously A LOT LESS THOROUGH or even rather vague or ignorant about the type of person they will be spending "the rest of their lives with" (as if this is reasonable in an age when we all could possibly live to 120) or how that "rest of their lives" with this person will be like. It seems like they are focused on this ONE (1) day of dress-up and ceremony, which I find utterly ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I like clothes and makeup but they have a spot on my lists of priority and lists of values.

Like I said, people seem to have more illusions about marriage than ever. At least before we had these freedoms technology (birth control) and society (choice of love, ability to earn a successful living, etc.) have given us people had a more realistic understanding of what marriage has always been. I think a person should spend more years thinking about the nature of the vows they will have to take and the legalities, and perhaps WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEIR LIFE IS FOR than the one day of ceremony.

So no, I never want to get married. I believe love doesn't need marriage and though marriage can benefit from love it isn't necessary. I think the latter is like eating a soup with a fork: it can be done but it tints the soup eating experience. It would be better to use a spoon. I think marriage tints the truest ideals of love (which as a Pisces I believe in terribly). I think emotional contracts like marriage (like all friendships) should be determined by emotional factors and not be constrained by other factors which threaten the purity of love and truth of that emotional contract. It's like giving your friend money every time she comes over (or being ridiculously rich). Are your friends really there because they love you???

I do not have it in me to marry for what marriage was based on (money and children). But at the same time I would find someone that does highly rational and realistic, someone that probably has a better idea about marriage than most people and is signing a contract with their eyes wide open instead of shut tight behind a pair of rose colored glasses.

And lets just be realistic. To quote from one of my fav movies (St. Elmo's Fire) "marriage is a concept invented by people who were lucky to make it to 20 without being eaten by dinosaurs". I think we all may have a very long time on earth-especially if we take care of ourselves well. So the whole, rest of our lives thing is kind of crazy. Maybe that's just me. I'm not obsessed with security.

posted June 07, 2009 04:07 PM         

to each, his/her own

I see nothing wrong with marriage. It's not for everybody. I believe in marriage rights for all people,and so I support gay marriage.

I would like to have a wife and children.

I am not a christian,and so I don't care about traditional marriages/weddings.

I have a strong Pisces influence with my Moon in Pisces,and it squares Neptune.

I was born out of wedlock. I never knew my father, and my mother's parents weren't even together for a year. My mother was in a marriage of convenience from when I was 6 years old to 18 years old.

I definitely would like to marry for love.

As a feminist, I believe in equality in a marriage. I am liberal overall,and so I would like to be married to somebody who is liberal too. Unconventional is fine. I am unconventional. tradition is not my thing.

I don't fit the norms of society as a multiracial, neurodivergent, high estrogen-level male any way.

I will probably just end up in a common law marriage.

I have Uranus in Libra in 2nd house,and it's unaspected. It only trines Midheaven in Gemini and North Lunar Node.

The heliocentric Uranus Nodes square my Ascendant/Descendant axis with 25 minutes of arc.

posted June 07, 2009 04:14 PM         

I'm not one who dreamt of marriage, but I know myself, and if I met someone really great, I'd definitely want to get married... I think I would flourish in a married state, because I like consistency and security and hate change. I like knowing what to expect.

There IS a reason that gay people are pushing for marriage even though they can have civil unions -- people instinctively want to merge and celebrate their union. Marriage is special.

posted June 07, 2009 04:21 PM         

Raymond: I've read a lot about you on tribe (at least I THINK this is you :-). I guess I believe that you can have a committed partner without the standard business contract. I highly suggest people consider making their own, unique, contractual agreements if they feel that they must have one.

posted June 07, 2009 04:42 PM         

Something may not be really something special but once denied it becomes that. I'm an African and I don't make a big deal about where I sit on the bus. But I would make a big deal about it if I were denied the choice of where to sit because of my skin color.

posted June 07, 2009 04:47 PM         

You said it better than I did.

I did say to each, his/her own. Marriage isn't for everybody. It's definitely for me.

Raymond

posted June 07, 2009 04:52 PM         

Ask people who got married and who thought it was "just a piece of paper" and they will tell you that they are very surprised at how much more of a serious commitment it is, both psychologically and legally.

When you don't get married, but are in a committed relationship, you are leaving an escape hatch, even if it's just psychological. The fact that both people refuse to make the relationship legal says they want the option to get out, even if they don't want to admit to it.

posted June 07, 2009 04:59 PM         

So I did it twice and had 2 kids, then had a 3rd out of wedlock. He is now three and I no longer believe marriage for kids is necessary. In fact I'm solely raising a very intelligent and balanced kid with no father on a regular basis.

posted June 07, 2009 05:01 PM         

Personally, Uranus is strong in my chart and I'm a Pisces sun 7th house. I also have a Scorpio third house with Mars, Saturn, and Uranus (in Sag). Perhaps I'm just a person that contemplates things intensely before doing them. Maybe I just have a natural skepticism or distrust. Maybe I'm just a Uranial person and I don't just take traditions as they are handed to me.

posted June 07, 2009 05:20 PM         

I am loaded with Saturn aspects

retrograde 5th/6th house ruler Saturn in Gemini in 9th (the handle of a bucket, the only planet in my southern hemisphere)
conjunct Midheaven in Gemini
oppose/contraparallel 7th house ruler Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd
oppose 4th/7th house ruler Jupiter in Sagittarius in 3rd
square 11th house ruler Moon in Pisces in 6th
quincunx 12th house ruler Sun in Scorpio in 2nd
contraparallel 1st house ruler Mercury in Scorpio in 3rd
contraparallel 2nd/9th house ruler Venus in Scorpio in 3rd

I would also look at the Saturn Nodes for collective structure,tradition,

no more than 2 degree orb with planetary nodes.

Heliocentric Saturn Nodes in 23'25 Cancer/Capricorn in my 11th and 5th houses
trine/sextile my Venus

posted June 07, 2009 05:23 PM         

quote:

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Perhaps I'm just a person that contemplates things intensely before doing them. Maybe I just have a natural skepticism or distrust. Maybe I'm just a Uranial person and I don't just take traditions as they are handed to me..

---

so do you imply that people that want to get married just take traditions as they are handed to them and do not have natural skepticism and do not contemplate things intensely before doing them??

I am sorry but the tone of your posts is patronizing, you are not Uranian at all when it comes to the principle of live-and-let-live, no one here is trying to marry you off.. not wanting to get married does not make you any more original or wise, it is just your personal choice - nothing more, nothing less

posted June 07, 2009 05:27 PM         

I'm another who isn't interested in the institution of marriage. Yes, I'm extremely interested in a long-term committed partner, and I've practiced what I call Serial Monogamy all my adult life
I bore a son to my last partner without benefit of matrimony (to my mother's horror )
I can tell you right now that I would have been divorced several times if I had married the partners that I cohabited with over the years. In a couple of cases, I made a bad choice in a partner, and didn't realize how bad/incompatible until several years down the road. In a couple of cases, I grew (emotionally, mentally, spiritually) and they didn't, and weren't interested in keeping pace with my (new) interests or (new) growth.
I don't know that I will ever marry, even given the opportunity.....
But if others want to get married, that's fine -- I don't care if you sleep with people with benefit of marital (religious) blessing or not
I think it's sad tho, that some young girls see finding a mate (or soul-mate)and marrying him as the be-all, end-all goal of their existence, that as soon as they've accomplished the wedding vows, life will be all set in place and they'll have a committed, loving partner forever. In my experience, it doesn't work out that way very often. I know a lot of couples who are married, but whose lives barely intersect. To me, that seems odd, but again, to each their own, perhaps that has meaning for them.....

posted June 07, 2009 05:31 PM         

I spent my entire life saying the things you are saying now.

If I never meet someone who I think will be nice to me, and that I am truly compatible with, I will not get married.

And to say that people who believe in getting married are just wanting to be complete, etc. is like me saying you are just bitter and gave up. You cannot make a blanket statement about everyone who wants to marry.

A lot of people who don't get married don't stay together forever either...it's not "marriage" or lack of it that determines if two people will stay together, it's whether or not they picked someone they are compatible with and if they are willing to work at it, and not expecting love to be enough, because it's just not -- marriage or no marriage.