posted May 10, 2011 04:22 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
I disagree that everything is in the chart. The chart shows potential in either direction. The choices we make in relation to our environment can determine where we fall along that astrological scale. Astrology is a good tool in which to guage likely issues and problems that need to be worked through, but there's more to being a sociopath than indicators in a birth chart. That's fatalistic in thinking, and it is exactly what great Astrologers like Sydney Omar (one of Linda's teachers) warn against. It's as if you are saying to the person who has a newborn baby that their child is going to be a sociopath. Not so. Astrology can be used by said parents to see where their child will struggle and provide more attention there to foster Growth (for example, more hugging and positive reinforcement). Just my opinion. We all have one. But I feel Astrology is only an indicator of possibilities. We always have our box of Free-Will Legos to play with, and we can all build anything we want out of them, if we believe we can. We are only limited by what we feel is possible and impossible. Astrology is a Map. Astrology is our individual Guide. But Astrology does not take away our choices. We can fall anywhere on the Grid that is our Celestial Map, and that grid has a very wide latitude.

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posted May 10, 2011 04:23 PM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Just my thoughts.I think we are made by a Creator ,designed as He wanted us for His purposes which are unknown to us while we are on the earth.
I don't think God would make anybody bad/not redeemable/ unable to manifest good.
Some people have many more challenges than others. The reasons,again,are unknown to us.
They say you can't see a Saint from a Sinner by the charts.
You can see huge challenges ,for sure, though

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posted May 10, 2011 04:24 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
Yes, exactly what Ami said. Exactly. You can see the challenges. And challenges can create a hero...or a monster. Just like too many Trines can create a lazy good-for-nothing who wastes all of that positive influence. The thing about Astrology is that it is an amazing tool to use once we already know a problem exists. Yung used it well with his psychology patients. But to, for instance, take 100 charts and pick out the sociopath from a chart alone would be a daunting task to say the least. Take Hitler, for example. I have read that according to his powerful chart, he could have done great things. Linda spoke of this also in Star Signs. Was he fated to be the most evil man who ever lived? Of course not. He chose to use his power to harm instead of to heal. We can go back now and point out all of the bad things in his Natal, but looking at the charts of 100 random people, I doubt any Astrologer could have predicted his to be profoundly worse than the 99 others. I do think it's great to look at charts and dissect them for clues to behavior, and "after-the-fact," yes, it is amazingly accurate to go back and see why and how. But I try not to forget Free-Will in the equation and the environment. Just one example--If I am abused as a child, I might grow up to be an abuser myself. Chances are, I will. And that being indicated within my chart can be very intricate and complex. But I may also choose to be a champion against child abuse due to what happened to me and help hundreds or thousands of children...and yes, with the same chart. Astrology is a good predictor, but it's not a perfect one. Astrology is a blend of both science and art, and Free-Will is always that wild card that turns everything on its head.

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posted May 10, 2011 04:25 PM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Just to add another wrinkle lol
There are thousands of Hitlers alive now .There have been thousands alive at any time in history.
It was the SOCIETY which allowed Hitler to rise more than his individual chart features.

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posted May 10, 2011 04:26 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
Oh, I see. I misinterpreted what you said also. Yeah, parents are definitely in the child's chart. But even they can change (though most of the time people don't change). An absent parent can suddenly make a choice to be a better mother/father after a lay-off at work--or an epiphany. And a bad parent can become better; in fact, horrid parents sometimes tend to become much better grandparents. Never underestimate Free-Will. It can create a Gandhi...or a Hitler.

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posted May 10, 2011 04:27 PM            

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Originally posted by Aya_and_baby:
Well, more specifically the boycott that was raised on Germany at the time and the disgruntlement (sp?) that it brought for the people. He promised better times so they followed him... If he were alive today, he'd probably hop on the "recession" bandwagon. Although I doubt that in this day and age, people would blindly follow him...

Then again, it wouldn't be the first time that people's general behaviour would surprise me. About a year ago, I wondered if someone would do that Milgram experiment again, would it give the same results. I thought it wouldn't, but only days later there was an article that they have done that experiment again and even roughly 40 years after the first one, and it being common knowledge, people were surprised to find that it produced roughly the same results as before. Makes you wonder.

I do suspect that people such as Hitler would probably have gotten into power in this day and age too, but just with a different soap box. If their chart allows it. But it certainly has to be something that is disgruntling the people. As a politician, you would have to be able to pick up on that, and if you can't, you may have Hitler's almost exact same chart, you probably won't get elected as chancellor

Somehow I imagine that Hitler would have done less damage as a painter, though

There's a few more quite interesting things that can be said about Hitler, but I kind of suspect he wasn't a sociopath... So sorry for the long and tedious off-topic

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posted May 10, 2011 04:29 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
Yeah, life is all about our perceptions of reality--from the chair I am sitting in (that looks as it does and feels as it does to my touch but in reality is nothing more than open empty space between countless tiny atoms and vibrating energy that triggers the form "chair" to my brain) to the way we each perceive the unique gifts and challenges represented by another person's chart and reflected in their actions and personalities that trigger those perceptions within us...whether true or not. Quite!

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posted May 10, 2011 04:29 PM            

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
I also don't think that life is so subjective...

If someone hurts someone else on purpose, that has nothing to do with my own subjective reactions to that - it has to do with the PERSON.

That person is choosing to hurt someone else's feelings, body, mind, etc. A person's motivations and behavior defines them.

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posted May 10, 2011 04:30 PM            

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Originally posted by maira:
Oh, no, of course not! I was talking about how we perceive our parental figures in childhood, that's it. An emotionally absent father may not have been that absent, but he may not have met the requirements that particular infant needed at the time.

As adults, I definitely agree. Hurt and evil are real, and are perceived as such. That's why we, as a [b]society chose to react against what Hitler did. I believe there is no right and wrong in the absolute world. But here, in the material world, we define ourselves by what we are and what we are not.[/B]

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posted May 10, 2011 04:30 PM            

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Interesting, Maira. I've thought about those things before, regarding parenting and the special needs of each unique child.

I like your distinctions between the Absolute and Material world...

However, disagree with the no right/wrong part - but that's another philosophical discussion.

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posted May 10, 2011 04:33 PM            

I'm itching to do it though... Should I?

posted May 10, 2011 04:39 PM            

I'll be back tomorrow, as it's getting late in my country, but I'd like to say a few words about what I think in terms of right and wrong in the absolute world.

I feel that they don't exist in absolute terms, as they are merely two facets of the same coin.

posted May 10, 2011 04:41 PM            

I like to think that we're all civilized people here, and that this kind of discussion should be carried with respect and with an "agree to disagree" policy, should that be the case. No one here holds the absolute truth anyway.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure Hitler was a sociopath either. I simply don't know. He might as well be someone who believed really hard in "his" truth, and that may be the reason he was able to convince so many.

posted May 10, 2011 05:11 PM            

I believe that the chart DOES show everything...but that it should not be read or interpreted in a deterministic way...bit of a contradiction....
So I think with enough EXTREME research you should be able to pinpoint the astrologically inherited aspects that show learned behaviour or genetic pre-disposition...

For example...
There is a recurrent theme in my family of one aspect that I'm singling out...
Grandmother had Pluto square Moon
Mum has Pluto in the 12th house opposite sun/moon conjunction
I have Pluto sun/conjunction in the first house
My son has Pluto in first house opposite his Sun

Not sure exactly what kind of behaviour this indicates except extremely strong will, and instinct for survival...
Basically we are all extremely headstrong.

posted May 10, 2011 05:53 PM            

I personally don't think everything can be seen in the natal chart. Possibilities, yes. I don't think the environment can be seen in the chart as people can easily be born in two different social classes with the exact same charts and end up different people altogether.

I also don't believe in absolute evil. Or what does evil, is evil. And I'm probably treading into deep waters here, but for example: to kill a man is considered evil. To kill a man in order to stop that man comitting genocide (no recent events came to mind here, really just an episode of House, M.D. actually ), would that be just as evil? Or when you donate to a good cause, only to get your 15 seconds of fame because the donation is televised 24/7, is that just as "saintly" as donating anonymously to a good cause?

I believe in a whole grey area. I believe there is good in everyone, but most - and probably most cynical - of all, I believe that the majority of people act in self interest anyway.

So far for right versus wrong... As for perception versus reality, my "perception" on that is probably a bit... emmm... too conventional?

Biologically speaking, our eyes "lie" to us all the time. What we see as colour is in fact the absence of colour. If our brain wouldn't automatically correct our vision, we'd see everything upside down. Sense of touch, or at least the nerves, can be altered either temporarily or permanently, changing our perception of cold and hot, pain or just a small pinch. Our sense of taste is linked to our sense of smell. Lose your nose and you lose the ability to correctly guess exactly what food you are taking in. Smell is a different thing altogether... Then there's the mind. It can make you smell things that aren't there, see things that aren't there, feel and taste things that aren't there, hear things that aren't there and most importantly of all, of what is there, your mind only registers what it deems important.

In short, our entire perception is, biologically speaking, very subjective. Reality is not. Yet, we rely more on perception because no one can really tell us what reality looks like.

And to add to the right versus wrong argument: one's perception of right isn't necessarily someone else's perception of right. One person donating to a good cause only to show their face on national tv could be considered "saintly", or that killing a dicator to stop him doing genocide is an act of heroism. While another person might find both acts terribly wrong and reckons that there should be an honest, selfless reasoning behind donating to a good cause and that murdering a genocidal dicator is still murder.

As for good and evil? I don't believe in either end of that spectrum. I don't believe someone can be pure evil, as I don't believe someone can be purely good. And good or evil, we are all still human and sometimes it is very hard to imagine the most murderous, evil-seeming people as new-borns who were completely dependant of their mother, or toddlers who were always laughing... (on the other hand, some of their twisted acts could have been the result of a bad childhood)

Imagine that, a Scorpio sun who never sees things black and white! And they say it's a typical Scorpio trait!

... And I still think Hitler would have been better off as a painter He wouldn't have been half as genocidal selling his own paintings than he was being a bundeskanselier (or whatever they called it in that day).

There! Hope I didn't kick up too much dirt with all this

posted May 10, 2011 06:11 PM            

"Sometimes if you just flip your perspective, you get a totally different idea of what's going on."

posted May 11, 2011 03:27 PM            

As for the "old" astrology, I tend to be on the fence. I believe that it is unethical to tell someone something very negative from the chart, but I feel that evolutionary astrology sugarcoated everything way too much.

posted May 11, 2011 03:38 PM            

I agree with everything that you said, that there is no pure evil and good, but in the material world. I believe that part of the human condition is to be denied the knowledge of the absolute truth. I also believe that such an absolute truth exists, and that there are some people, whom we call "enlightened", who were or are able to know this. But in general, here, in the relative realm, well, one can only catch glimpses and whispers of the Truth.

posted May 11, 2011 05:50 PM            

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"Hitler went to heaven. When you will understand this, you will understand God."

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I understand. *congratulates self*