posted October 18, 2016 03:52 PM            

Please read this and if you've known somebody who fits this description (you will KNOW if you've been in a relationship like this), please share their chart if you care to attempt to identify astrological characteristics of narcissistic sadists...

posted October 18, 2016 05:10 PM            

Anyway he has Moon conj ASC in the 12th house in Leo. I think that explains a lot of the way he handles life emotionally. He's also got Mars opposite Ascendant and Sun/Pluto forming a T-square to the both of them in Scorpio. So much is weighing and pulling on his sense of self. I think his way of coping manifests in a narcissistic way at times but I am also not a professional psychologist nor astrologer so my experience ends there.

posted October 18, 2016 11:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MermaidDreamz:
The saddest part, it's a family member

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Yeah, mine too. A close family member. I struggled for many, many years to have anything resembling a real conversation with them.
I was reluctant to label them 'narcissist' - partly because I don't quite agree with labels in the first place. It's more of a spectrum, with certain tendencies being highlighted. Having said that, we do need labels for understanding what things are. Call a spade a spade.

It all happened, everything mentioned in that article. It got to a point where I was questioning my own sanity. It was only when I grew into my late teens that I realized it wasn't all my fault after all.

One really, really needs *distance* to cope with such a person. Distance and perspective. It's hard not to play into the drama, but it's important to steel yourself and not feed into it either. They're like the boy who cried wolf. (When they see no way to win an argument, they'll immediately switch to playing the victim. So you'll be distracted and guilted into letting go of whatever it is you were trying to say.) Eventually, we get tired of running to rescue them from imaginary demons. And get painted as the bad guy to boot.

Nope, nada. Not happening.

The best way to cope would be to walk away. If that isn't possible, for whatever reason - re-define boundaries. It won't be easy, because once they feel their power slipping away, they'll act out worse than before. But it's crucial to stand your ground. Let the accusations fly, take 'em and wait for the storm to pass. Lack of reaction takes the wind out of their sails faster than any amount of arguing, or discussing (which they won't participate in anyway).

posted October 19, 2016 12:27 AM            

You know your stuff. Evident you've really been through the wringer. Thank you, this is exactly what I'm noticing, that I just wait it out, the wind out of the sails... exactly... and boundaries, distance, big time. My ex has called me 8 times today... I answered once, just now... I actually didn't see he had called because my ringer was off... so that was a good thing. And I'm so not in the pits doubting myself anymore. That's where the diagnosis REALLY comes in handy (not as a hard and fast rule, but to remind myself that 99% of what he does is manipulative narcissistic tactics, and a small percentage of the time I am talking to his spirit and not his terribly damaged ego).

It seems he definitely needs me... we are like family, I've always known that... and luckily what he says almost never touches or hurts me anymore, because I just see so clearly what's going on and I do not pity him when he threatens to kill himself (it is so regular in the conversations, and so unlikely given the narcissism... he acknowledges he won't and doesn't want to and then switches right back to it... I have compassion, understand... I know his self pity is quite real, but my pity doesn't benefit him or me in any way).

"I was reluctant to label them 'narcissist' - partly because I don't quite agree with labels in the first place. It's more of a spectrum, with certain tendencies being highlighted. Having said that, we do need labels for understanding what things are. Call a spade a spade"

I have always been very reluctant about this too, but it's like anything... I'm a dreamer, I'm a technician, I'm a narcissist... the shame doesn't do any good. It's not a judgment but an appraisal, and not intended to limit somebody to something... But as I say, if you witness all these things, and then you read this article, and you KNOW what it's talking about to the letter... well it's hard not to commiserate.

Of course, there is a spectrum of narcissistic behaviour. Our whole society is embroiled in it.

posted October 19, 2016 02:05 AM            

-flip flop between being super nice to super mean?

-when in "super mean mode", would even the smallest, NORMAL, question be reciprocated with anger or responses such as "stop asking me the wrong questions!! why are you always causing drama"?

-always threaten with divorce at the smallest perceived annoyance BUT doing it in a roundabout way ie presenting it in terms such as "if you want to leave, do it!"? You, of course, have never even mentioned, let alone thought about, divorce..

-ALWAYS blame you for not understanding and subsequently stop talking altogether when all you did was asking politely for a better explanation?

-ALWAYS accuse you of ruining relationship and not being able to "move on"? Btw, you are STILL puzzled about certain things because you never got a proper response...see point prior to this one..

posted October 19, 2016 02:31 AM            

Sun in 6th Trine Mars would make you a very passionate person in daily life, you will also know how to get what you want by using Virgo strategies, and with Mars adding to this you will be driven to succeed in your work or serviced

Off topic but the hardest working and most influential entertainers have some sort of sixth house placement or Virgo placement or they'd have mercury in a earthy house which is all about stability and success in the real business world

Keanu reeves is Virgo with a stellium in 1st including Mercury

Michael Jackson Virgo also with sixth sun

Bruce Lee had Saturn in sixth

Kurt Cobain had sun and mercury in sixth

Beyonce is a Virgo

Prince had Venus in sixth

Leo DiCaprio has Jupiter in the Sixth House, so on and so on.

Everybody has everything within them just depending on your chart is where and what you will show the world and be primarily focused on

posted October 19, 2016 08:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by charlie:
Would a Narcissist:

-flip flop between being super nice to super mean?

-when in "super mean mode", would even the smallest, NORMAL, question be reciprocated with anger or responses such as "stop asking me the wrong questions!! why are you always causing drama"?

-always threaten with divorce at the smallest perceived annoyance BUT doing it in a roundabout way ie presenting it in terms such as "if you want to leave, do it!"? You, of course, have never even mentioned, let alone thought about, divorce..

-ALWAYS blame you for not understanding and subsequently stop talking altogether when all you did was asking politely for a better explanation?

-ALWAYS accuse you of ruining relationship and not being able to "move on"? Btw, you are STILL puzzled about certain things because you never got a proper response...see point prior to this one..

Last question: would a Narcissist become worse when s/he feels their "power" is slipping away due to other person shutting off all feelings?

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posted October 19, 2016 08:10 AM            

Also, Jupiter has to be afflicted, imo

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posted October 19, 2016 09:19 AM            

This morning he flipped out because I was eating his clif bars. When I go to school, I typically eat clif bars as a quick snack for breakfast in order to get my metabolism going, so I was eating those. Apparently they were supposed to be for his hunting trip, EVEN THOUGH no one TOLD ME about it. He then starts flipping out and slamming doors and all.

Yeah, terrible start to my day

His chart:

posted October 19, 2016 10:37 AM            

that's tough. I'm sorry you're going through this.

I wonder if having the NN/SN axis placed near the angles plays an important factor in a person's potential to be a narcissist?

posted October 19, 2016 10:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hearttreasure:
Mine is one. I have known this several months before but didn't think it can be seen in the chart, I thought it's a psychological matter.

.

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Some of my ex's behaviors, and my responses to them, led me to google around about personality disorders--he hits some of the checklist points for psychopathology, sociopathology, narcissistic personality disorder, and borderline personality disorder, but doesn't fit any one of the profiles to t. I'm not going to post his chart here, but I wanted to jot down some of my (complicated, not very articulate) thoughts about these diagnostic categories. For a while, the books about psychopaths AND ALSO an Internet forum I found called "surviving infidelity" were the only places I could find any understanding or support---friends did not understand the effect that my ex's silent treatments, lying, stonewalling and gaslighting were having on me. But there were also many complicated things about his personality and our relationship that made the diagnoses NOT resonate.

Here's where it was so confusing:

-With everyone else I've encountered in my entire life (in my personal llife, family OR as a researcher) who's EVER engaged in unhealthy or abusive behavior or self-destructive activities, there's been a simple, straightforward explanation of it in their family of origin--I can map direct links from the behaviors of their parents or parent-figures (or lack thereof) to their issues and problems. In those cases, I don't think a personality disorder diagnosis is appropriate at all--people who have ever been abuse victims should be diagnoses with Complex Post-Traumatic Stress. Destructive and self-destructive behaviors in abuse victims are not maladaptive, they are unavoidable---they are how a "normal," healthy human responds to that treatment, just like if you have a normal, healthy leg and someone bashes it in a million places with a crowbar, it breaks and has to heal. It doesn't mean you started out with a leg that was less healthy.

With my ex, in contrast to everyone else I've ever known, I can't find an explanation in his family of origin for why he's SO messed up and troubled and dishonest.

Also, his lying isn't a dynamic that comes up in certain relationships, it's something that's all on him. He does it with strangers as well as with aquaintences, family and friends he loves, people he has relationships with that feel good and safe to him, as well as ones that feel bad. I saw NO evidence of this problem in the first four years I knew him. He has dear friends from childhood who he has deceived in similar ways (who seem to be kind and honest people themselves) who are still friends with him and still loyal to him.

I STILL think it's likeliest that I'll uncover an explanation for why he's so damaged, and that he'll uncover one himself and start to work on himself and turn out, after all, to be the loving, trustworthy, deep-thinking guy I thought he was......reading people wrong was never an issue for me before this.....I still think there's an 80% chance he's just really good at bottling things up, and he has a crazily-slow emotionsal processing time due to his low-water, air void chart, and whatever he bottled up will come up and get worked on, and the world that felt true to me will turn out to be true......BUT, there's a 20% chance that these personality disorders I didn't believe in DO exist, in the sense that someone can be that messed up for NO reason.

In the psychological thinking on this, these disorders are largely untreatable, because they're not situational. And I didn't believe that was possible before I dealt with this situation.

Astrologically, I think looking for markers in a chart is just as problematic as these psychological diagnostics----the marker could show energetic indications that a traumatic event is likely to happen, OR it could show fixed personality traits that have no explanation. There are astrologers on this site that believe a chart fully determines both your inborn personality and your experiences (like showing that abuse is inevitable), and those who believe that we can work with the chart constructively and transcend challenging aspects or placements.

I've always believed that psychiatric diagnoses have limited accuracy and usefulness....better to work closely with a therapist on individual issues that come up, and see each patient/person as unique.

BUT all of my belief systems have been shaken by this situation and relationship. Especially my astrological belief systems, because astrologers on here accurately predicted how horrible the relationship would be long before it played out that way in real life.

As I heal from the situation, I find myself circling back to my old beliefs, though--which feel more real to me. (Which are: this guy is fundamentally the person my gut told me he was, but he has mental health issues that come from a suppressed trauma he's bottled up....when it surfaces, he'll be remorseful and devote his life to fixing things.......I'm not the kind of person this happens to. I'm too loving and powerful, and the universe has my back and wants me to devote my life to serving others/the planet in my own small and unique ways.....we each have the power to manifest our charts at different vibrational levels, and nothing in a chart "fixes" us with any particular problem or issue forever).....but I also am trying to sort out a lot of complicated questions.

posted October 19, 2016 11:02 AM            

To make things worse, our Mars-es are conjunct and our Mercuries are square.

So, my theory about my mom is this:
Her Moon/Neptune in Scorpio opposite Saturn shows hardship with getting her needs met. Her mom was schizophrenic and her dad an alcoholic who left them to their own devices.
She is majorly prone to delusions.

Moon, Neptune, Venus, Jupiter in 7th House:
She relies heavily on others in her adult life to meet her needs. She is very sweet and charming if you stay on top of her demands but..

Sun, Mercury, Pluto, Uranus, Mars, SN, Lilith in Virgo (plus 6th H):
She has impossible standards. And a huge martyr complex. Then...

Pluto conjunct retrograde Mercury in Virgo:
Intense communication, backwards logic, nitpicking, sadistic intent..

And finally,
All of her Virgo and 6th house placements, plus her Mars / Lilith on her SN, show a huge pull away from her NN. She feels stuck, because her entire personality holds her back from developing empathy and compassion for HERSELF, and for others (Pisces NN).

posted October 19, 2016 11:15 AM            

quote:

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In those cases, I don't think a personality disorder diagnosis is appropriate at all--people who have ever been abuse victims should be diagnoses with Complex Post-Traumatic Stress. Destructive and self-destructive behaviors in abuse victims are not maladaptive, they are unavoidable---they are how a "normal," healthy human responds to that treatment, just like if you have a normal, healthy leg and someone bashes it in a million places with a crowbar, it breaks and has to heal. It doesn't mean you started out with a leg that was less healthy.

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I definitely think a personality disorder diagnoses is still appropriate. Especially when someone who came from an abusive household chooses to have children and chooses to abuse them, and especially if they have absolutely zero interest in changing their maladaptive behaviors. :/
Such as in the case of my mom ^
I mean, her brother grew up in the same house and he isn't sadistic, he's just .. very eccentric.

posted October 19, 2016 12:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by girlwiththerainysoul:
@Electro DGX

that's tough. I'm sorry you're going through this.

I wonder if having the NN/SN axis placed near the angles plays an important factor in a person's potential to be a narcissist?

3 out of 4 in the charts I shared, and the father of Electro DGX have it near their AC/DC axis. the other one (number 3 in my post) has it near the MC/IC axis!

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When I was on the phone with my ex, I was focusing in on his South Node conjunct Neptune in.the 7th house...

posted October 19, 2016 12:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by cottonball:
I've read narcissism can be caused by a difficult relationship with a parent. One narcissist I know has Moon square Saturn.

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I was reflecting that maybe there is a limit to the amount of unfair criticism we can endure as a child before we lose the ability to distinguish what is correct and what isn't... we spend so long thinking it is our fault, being afraid, trying to be "better," and then something switches and the only way to survive is to decide that nothing is our fault... or a complex variation wherein we are still totally committed to being "good" and fear the repercussions of being bad... But because it's all been twisted and locked away for so long, it is difficult to distinguish and we think the world is literally ending if we are identified as having been bad, so the trauma causes us to lash out in really intense ways.

I know how it feels as somebody who was just in a relationship with a narcissist... you can see how somebody exposed to a narcissistic parent would really easily become a narcissist. My mind is strong enough but a child's mind... no.

posted October 19, 2016 12:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Selenite:
I definitely think a personality disorder diagnoses is still appropriate. Especially when someone who came from an abusive household chooses to have children and chooses to abuse them, and especially if they have absolutely zero interest in changing their maladaptive behaviors. :/
Such as in the case of my mom ^
I mean, her brother grew up in the same house and he isn't sadistic, he's just .. very eccentric.

I mean, I agree with your message but in reality people are still responsible for themselves and should be treated as such. If you're sadistic, you're a sadist. It took me forever to stop making excuses for my mom and until I saw her for exactly what she was, I could never heal.

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Yes. This diagnosis is so key for the people who have been compromised by abusive behaviour... It's hard to understand for those who haven't been through it, but if somebody is constantly using all their guiles to manipulate you, trick you, play on your weakest spots, it can take years, or even a whole lifetime, to finally get out. Whereas if you realize the way they're treating you is THEIR problem, not yours... even for a minute! Then you start to get your life back.

I believe in being responsible for one another, I believe in not abandoning one another. But being under the thumb of an abusive individual does absolutely nothing for anybody... it is essential that we use the tools and lexicon at our disposal to at least get distance.

It doesn't mean we're not seeing them as real people who have been hurt badly... on the contrary, many people who have been on the receiving end of this kind of treatment have spent quite a lot of hours commiserating about this very thing... But the thing is that it seems to go nowhere...

I love the idea that it's treatable, that through really understanding what happened and deeply processing the trauma... it can be healed.

I think it's likely that spiritual and energetic healing modalities would be very very helpful... I have a friend who is really good at pulling stuff out and clearing things, but personality disorders, he says, are sometimes particularly stubborn, and can't just be removed because they are so integral... :/