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Author Topic:   yes our healthcare is fabulous dahling
AbsintheDragonfly
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From: Gaia
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posted August 19, 2010 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AbsintheDragonfly     Edit/Delete Message
Ok I know I already said this, however, I think it's very important fact.

When Medicare and Social Security were put into place, people screamed and moaned about it, and talked about how it was gov't invading peoples private lives, and now no one minds them being there a bit.

All I know is that if it hadn't been for those programs, when the private insurance decided that they'd reached their limit and wouldn't pay any more money out for Kevin's healthcare, in the hospital, we'd have been screwed.

------------------
We justify ourselves each time we take a breath...

Me

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AcousticGod
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posted August 19, 2010 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Quick note on Social Security (it's too busy at work to get into too much), Social Security passed both houses of Congress easily, and was viewed as a more conservative approach to the retirement problem.

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emitres
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posted September 03, 2010 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for emitres     Edit/Delete Message
drives me absolutely batty when people who don't live in Canada start talking nonsense about the healthcare system...

quote:
...but those Socialist systems..like Britain and Canada let people die before they ever get to see a doctor.

really??? are you absolutely sure about this?? where exactly does this happen? and please, don't reference some blogger who is most likely mis-informed at
best...

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katatonic
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posted September 03, 2010 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
emitres you need to understand that jwhop thinks "socialist" is the equivalent of the old soviet union and there is no in-between.

that said, i agree with you completely. it's basically a load of conservative garbage rhetoric that some people swallow whole. i hear great things about the canadian healthcare system, and know canadians who would not give up their citizenship for anything even though they have married over here they go home when they need a doctor!

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted September 03, 2010 07:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
drives me absolutely batty when people who don't live in Canada start talking nonsense about the healthcare system...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...but those Socialist systems..like Britain and Canada let people die before they ever get to see a doctor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

really??? are you absolutely sure about this?? where exactly does this happen? and please, don't reference some blogger who is most likely mis-informed at
best...emitres


How about Canadian doctors emitres? Would you accept their direct experiences with the Socialist Canadian Health Care System...or are Canadian doctors...."misinformed" about their own medical specialities and patients?

Canada's Medical Nightmare - by Robert J. Cihak, M.D. - Health Care
September 2004
Written By: Robert J. Cihak, M.D.
Published In: Health Care News > September 2004
Publication date: 09/01/2004
Publisher: The Heartland Institute

For decades, Canadians have cast pitying glances at us poor American neighbors who actually have to pay for our medical care while they get theirs for "free."

Yet the major candidates in Canada's recent national election both agreed the country's health care system is failing. They made the usual socialist diagnosis of "not enough money." None of the candidates mentioned government control as what ails the Canadian system....


High Costs, Low Quality

A July 2004 study by the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute, Paying, More, Getting Less, concluded that after years of government control, the Canadian medical system is badly injured and bleeding citizens' hard-earned tax dollars. The institute compared health care systems in the industrialized countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and found Canada currently spends the most, yet ranks among the lowest on such indicators as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.


Dying in Queues

In 1999, Dr. Richard F. Davies, a cardiologist at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute and professor of medicine at the University of Ottawa, described in remarks for the Canadian Institute for Health Information how delays affected Ontario heart patients scheduled for coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In a single year, for this one operation, the doctor said, "71 Ontario patients died before surgery, 121 were removed from the list permanently because they had become medically unfit for surgery," and 44 left the province to have the surgery, many having gone to the United States for the operation. (According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, 33 Canadian hospitals performed approximately 22,500 bypass surgeries in 1998-99.)

In other words, 192 people either died or became too sick to have surgery before they could work their way to the front of the line.

In a May/June 2004 article in the journal Health Affairs, researcher Robert Blendon and colleagues described the results of a survey of hospital administrators in Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, the United States, and Canada. Fifty percent of the Canadian hospital administrators said the average waiting time for a 65-year-old man requiring a routine hip replacement was more than six months. Not one American hospital administrator reported waiting periods that long. Eighty-six percent of American hospital administrators said the average waiting time was shorter than three weeks; only 3 percent of Canadian hospital administrators said their patients had this brief a wait.
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/15524/Canadas_Medical_Nightmare.html

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katatonic
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posted September 04, 2010 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
Canada's Medical Nightmare - by Robert J. Cihak, M.D. - Health Care
September 2004 ...

A July 2004 study by the ...

In 1999, Dr. Richard F. Davies, a cardiologist at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute and professor of medicine at the University of Ottawa, described in remarks for the Canadian Institute for Health Information how delays affected Ontario heart patients scheduled for coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In a single year, for this one operation, the doctor said, "71 Ontario patients died before surgery, 121 were removed from the list permanently because they had become medically unfit for surgery," and 44 left the province to have the surgery, many having gone to the United States for the operation. (According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, 33 Canadian hospitals performed approximately 22,500 bypass surgeries in 1998-99.)...

[in other words the canadian doctors are unhappy that everyone can't be saved from their heart condition]

In other words, 192 people either died or became too sick to have surgery before they could work their way to the front of the line.

(in "other words" under 200 out of 22.5 thousand people were too ill for surgery or died before they got to the appt for surgery; that is .08% unsaved and hardly a shameful statistic for any medical community. heart patients do have a tendency to die)

In a May/June 2004 ..

just one more of several OLD reports used as backup for slanting reports to look bad ...

i wonder jwhop, do you think american heart surgeons save every single heart-challenged patient? cos the surgeons i know ALL admit that some patients will by the law of averages not make it to surgery or die on the table or in postop...and they would all like OUR own system to be perfect but admit that it is NOT.

so canadian doctors making reports in an effort to improve their system...6-12 years ago, mind you...proves nothing about the state of that system, just that it could improve. even the world famous clinics and hospitals cannot boast 100% success, nor do 100% of americans get exactly the care they need exactly when they need it.

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katatonic
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posted September 04, 2010 05:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
meanwhile my 90 yr old friend continues to be manhandled - badly bruised - in hospital and WANTS to die, but can't get into the hospital that could actually treat her condition because the doctors and insurance don't agree with her. after all she is 90 and "what do you expect?" they say, "at her age"....nice, shiny american doctors who are tending a highly insured patient.

as you have fairly admitted, no system is perfect. but 99.92% is a pretty high passing grade for any system...

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted September 04, 2010 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
In other words, more than 190 heart patients who needed treatment didn't get that treatment under the Socialist Canadian Health Care System. Many died before they could be seen and many more became so ill they couldn't be treated at all. Some came to America for their treatment.

Give it up katatonic. America is not going to accept a Socialist Health Care system where the government decides who gets treated and who doesn't.

However katatonic, let me say you have a rather callous attitude about the deaths of treatable patients who died and didn't have to die. Those were in only one medical speciality and in only one Province in Canada.

The only good thing to come out of O'BomberCare is that lots and lots of demoscats who marched off the cliff for O'BomberCare are going to lose their congressional seats in November. That's a good thing.

I would tell you what you can do with Socialist Health Care but I think you already know.

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emitres
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posted September 04, 2010 07:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for emitres     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
How about Canadian doctors emitres? Would you accept their direct experiences with the Socialist Canadian Health Care System

probably not, as much depends on which province they're actually practicing medicine in...

don't get me wrong, our system is far from perfect... however, you can not cite out-dated examples from two larger cities and assume that it's the same across the entire country, 'cause it ain't...

quote:
...delays affected Ontario heart patients scheduled for coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In a single year, for this one operation, the doctor said, "71 Ontario patients died before surgery, 121 were removed from the list permanently because they had become medically unfit for surgery," and 44 left the province to have the surgery, many having gone to the United States for the operation.

while i do not doubt that these number are accurate the simple fact of the matter is that majority most likely could have travelled elsewhere in Canada - even within their own province - to have bypass surgery...

quote:
the average waiting time for a 65-year-old man requiring a routine hip replacement was more than six months.

again, which hospitals exactly?? all of them in all of Canada? does this even seem remotely logical to you? i personally know of four people who required hip or knee replacements ( one being my father-in-law )
and not one waited longer than a month...

it's really easy to find material to support your claim when that's what the journalists in question are specifically looking for...

in Alberta, our former premier wanted to introduce a more "american" tier system... it was shot down repeatedly.. the entire time he was in office

and you seem to use the word socialist a lot but you never define WHICH socialist system?

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emitres
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posted September 04, 2010 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for emitres     Edit/Delete Message
katatonic
quote:
i hear great things about the canadian healthcare system, and know canadians who would not give up their citizenship for anything even though they have married over here they go home when they need a doctor!

it's funny you should mention that i know of a few canadians that live in the US and come home to see the doctor in spite of having insurance that would cover their expenses down there...

i did the same when my husband and i lived in Houston for nine months... like i said, i know it's not perfect but it's better than some of the other systems out there

i suspect ( possibly in error ) that jwhop has never been in the situation where he or his ( assuming gender here too, sorry if i'm off ) family couldn't get medical attention when needed...

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katatonic
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posted September 04, 2010 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
However katatonic, let me say you have a rather callous attitude about the deaths of treatable patients who died and didn't have to die. Those were in only one medical speciality and in only one Province in Canada

nothing callous about my attitude jwhop. certainly nothing as callous as your assumption that people who can't afford insurance here are just plain lazy selfish tivo watching single moms etc...

but if you consider admitting that we all die of something (and heart patients are more likely to die sooner than healthy people) is callous, i guess you got me!

just pointing out that 8/10ths of a percent failure is better than most systems i've ever heard of, whether its the post office or the mayo clinic.

and emitres was able to see what you apparently missed, that those reports are old as the hills. do you know what the failure rate in america is for cancer treatments???? or bypass surgery for that matter?

also i noticed that one of your reports was on a GROUP of socialist medical systems, if the name has anything to tell about it. why do you think canada came out so poorly? if they're all socialists how does that damn the socialist aspects of the system? could it be that the writers of the report had an axe to grind, like yourself?

once again you are oversimplifying, fudging AND drawing the wrong conclusions.

it wasn't the government who decided who was going to get the op and who wasn't, it was a matter of not being able to get everyone in the theatre at the same time. as i've told you jwhop, my sister is a nurse who REGULARLY has to discharge people who are on death's door because their insurance says so for whatever reason, and admit people who don't belong in her hospital because their insurance won't pay for somewhere else.

i would say the rate of that sort of occurrence is a good deal more than .08%.

as YOU said, no system is perfect. and socialism comes in a lot of different brands.

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katatonic
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posted September 05, 2010 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
of course i do know, jwhop, that despite never having availed yourself of the healthcare in EITHER canada or britain you know much more about both from reading the tabloid press like the daily mail etc...and take to heart all the moaning shite stirrers there. and that nothing i say will ever convince you otherwise.

however i would like to point out that i know LOTS of americans who are caught without healthcare at all (except dire emergencies) because they can't afford insurance OR doctors but make too much to qualify for "aid". many of them suffer quite as much under our system as anyone you can drag up from "socialist" systems.

but don't worry i know you can't handle firsthand accounts so i won't bother you with anymore of them

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emitres
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posted September 05, 2010 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for emitres     Edit/Delete Message
here here katatonic

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