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Author Topic:   Euthanizing Disabled Children?
tautomer4314
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posted May 02, 2012 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tautomer4314     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am extremely conflicted over this, and have yet to draw a definitive conclusion over this. Part of me strongly agrees, and another part of me strongly disagreed. Until I can sort out how objective each opinion is in my mind, I can't say.

I want to see everyones opinion on this, how do you react to it, and how do you feel about this. This will aid in ironing out the details of my opinion, as many of my opinions are driven by the collective opinions of others.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2012/05/02/horror-mom-wants-right-to-her-euthanize-disabled-children/

Discuss.

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pandacake
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posted May 03, 2012 04:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pandacake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is tricky.

From a practical, financial & primal point of view, I can get why one would want to kill their disabled children. For what's worth, animals instinctively do it too. (Not saying that all people who are pro infanticide are cruel animals, just noting that animals do it too.)

To be honest, I don't feel anyone should have the right to end someone else's life, even their own children's whether they are mentally or physically disabled ...

The clear line for me is birth.
I'm 100% pro choice *at any stage* of pregnancy. The woman is entirely boss over her own body and has *absolute* right to decide who she lets live in *her* womb. Therefore I also find that thorough testing prior to birth should be a must, this together with the improvements of medical technology should reduce the chance of having a disabled child.

After birth, the newborn is a human with basic rights.
I do believe every human should be boss over their own body, thus I am pro-euthanasia out of free will. And if a person is unable to decide over their own faith, there's palliative care. To me personally, there’s a big difference between killing and let die. I know via via, parents who had a mentally & physically disabled child who was in pain and had constant seizures and heart attacks. After a certain point with no hope, the parents decided to just focus on relieving the pain but the next time the child will have a heart attack, they would not rescue.

If despite all, the mother still gives birth to a disabled child. The mother could always relieve herself from the responsibility to take care of the child. Don't kill. I have faith that there will always be people who are willing and capable to take care of them and cherish them. This and together with the help of people who are willing to financially chip in to help the less fortunate (I'm the latter).

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sand
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posted May 03, 2012 06:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sand     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pro but it is an emotional choice for me more than a rational one. I feel very bad for the caretakers in the same way it might be inhumane to euthanize them I feel it's also inhumane for people to have to serve someone like that. I get that there are really good souls that love to be of service but not every caretaker feels it was their calling to go into that profession.

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juniperb
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posted May 03, 2012 07:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tautomer, This is a very controversial subject and more in tune with another forum.

I`m moving this over to SPITR . I was not sure what forum was most suited for it but SP it is.


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Faith
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posted May 03, 2012 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
pandacake,

Do you have any children?

My children were absolutely human beings before they were born. I don't know how anyone can look at a newborn baby and think, "I would have killed you a few minutes ago, before you were born, no problem."

All the intelligence and beauty of a baby is there being formed inside the womb.


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Faith
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posted May 03, 2012 08:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As for the video...what does anyone lose by caring for these disabled people? What does society lose for trying to make the lives of disabled people as nice as they can?

I think we lose nothing. We gain compassion, patience, and appreciation for what we have.

But what do we gain by legalizing "euthanasia"? (As far as I'm concerned, it is only truly euthanasia if the person being killed can explicitly ask for it; otherwise we can't KNOW if they want to die.)

More reasons to kill? More free time to pursue our mostly-frivolous lives? Some money?

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Hera
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posted May 03, 2012 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hera     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sigh...

This is extremely personal decision, based on my own life experiences and life style. It is what I would personally do, not what everyone should do. I don't think I'm qualified to answer that.
I am against... First of, I love children, especially the ones with problems. I don't know why, probably because of my Chiron, but always stuck with the underdog. Second, I am a doctor and I took an oath. Might not mean much to many but it does to me. I sympathize with my patients (Moon conj Nep exact), but would never commit murder to help them. Sorry, but no. The guilt would drive me suicidal for sure. Third, there are sophisticated ways to find out if your child will be disabled or not, before birth. Okay, not every test is 100% sure, but still 98-99% accurate is good enough. Forth, I have some fertility issues. I might not be able to have biological kids. I want a family badly and I intend to adopt a child. Yes, preferably healthy! But if I do get pregnant and my child will be disabled or I will feel a child was meant to be my family I will not let disability stop me.
As I said, my opinion is strictly personal. I will never judge someone who thinks differently about such a sensitive subject, we all have reasons why we feel this way. But I could never do it - to a child or an adult. I have colleagues that are in favor of it, and I actually admire their courage, but I can't do it myself.

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T
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posted May 03, 2012 09:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think people are born disabled for reasons we won't always understand and they are born to certain caretakers for even more reasons we might find hard to understand.

I dont think euthanization is the answer or best way to handle these situations.

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juniperb
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posted May 03, 2012 09:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe in the right to die and voted for it when it was on the table.

FOR adults in their correct mind.

Euthanizing disabled babies and children is simply not an option for me.

Who deems their disability euthanizable,> me? Drs or society?

Thats a whole kettle of worms in it`s self.


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T
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posted May 03, 2012 09:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Same here

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pandacake
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posted May 03, 2012 09:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pandacake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
pandacake,

Do you have any children?

My children were absolutely human beings before they were born. I don't know how anyone can look at a newborn baby and think, "I would have killed you a few minutes ago, before you were born, no problem."

All the intelligence and beauty of a baby is there being formed inside the womb.


Hi Faith,

I understand what you mean. This is a very difficult (& personal) subject indeed.

I can't find the documentary anymore it's a long time ago, but it was about a woman in her latest term of pregancy and the doctor made a big mistake and overlooked something important and only discovered way too late that the child had severe health issues. After much struggle, she decided she wanted a late term abortion anyway.

As someone who loves children, my gut feel says it's wrong: in the echography we can see the hands, feet, face etc of the baby ... Personally, I would prefer her to give birth and give the child away for adoption if she wasn't able to care of it (I want to adopt one day). But, in the end it's her body and her choice. I don't feel I have the right to criticize or condemn her for the choice she makes. I understand your point of view and I can understand where she is coming from too ...

However euthanizing disabled newborns is a big no no for me.

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amelia28
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posted May 03, 2012 10:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for amelia28     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pandacake:
This is tricky.

From a practical, financial & primal point of view, I can get why one would want to kill their disabled children. For what's worth, animals instinctively do it too. (Not saying that all people who are pro infanticide are cruel animals, just noting that animals do it too.)

To be honest, I don't feel anyone should have the right to end someone else's life, even their own children's whether they are mentally or physically disabled ...

[b]The clear line for me is birth.
I'm 100% pro choice *at any stage* of pregnancy. The woman is entirely boss over her own body and has *absolute* right to decide who she lets live in *her* womb. Therefore I also find that thorough testing prior to birth should be a must, this together with the improvements of medical technology should reduce the chance of having a disabled child.

After birth, the newborn is a human with basic rights.
I do believe every human should be boss over their own body, thus I am pro-euthanasia out of free will. And if a person is unable to decide over their own faith, there's palliative care. To me personally, there’s a big difference between killing and let die. I know via via, parents who had a mentally & physically disabled child who was in pain and had constant seizures and heart attacks. After a certain point with no hope, the parents decided to just focus on relieving the pain but the next time the child will have a heart attack, they would not rescue.

If despite all, the mother still gives birth to a disabled child. The mother could always relieve herself from the responsibility to take care of the child. Don't kill. I have faith that there will always be people who are willing and capable to take care of them and cherish them. This and together with the help of people who are willing to financially chip in to help the less fortunate (I'm the latter).[/B]


I am pro choice but during the first three months of pregnancy. I like what you had to say and felt it was very well balanced perspective.


OP, I understand why you feel conflicted with this topic. Personally if I were to become disabled there is a chance that I would seek euthanasia, don't know for sure but there is a very good possibility. However, Pandacake and Faith both brought up good points about personal choice, personal responsibility and the right to life. Hence if the disabled person can think and so has consciousness, euthanasia then should be that individual's personal choice not their caregiver's decision. However if the person is a vegetable/brain dead hooked up to a machine to stay alive then the right thing to do is let them die and move on bc a machine is keeping the person alive and the person is brain dead so in essence the person is already dead.

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Medicine is suppose to cure and prevent, not manage diseases. Mainstream medicine revolves around managing diseases, keeping people sick, and reducing the population. Mainstream medicine is really only truly good at trauma care. Pharmaceutical companies got in bed with the government and this is why mainstream medicine is the way it is today.

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katatonic
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posted May 03, 2012 01:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the question of WHEN a fetus becomes a person is obviously a matter of opinion. some will consider a fertilized egg a person(though the oklahoma courts just decided that LEGALLY it is not); some see the "quickening" as a point where a soul enters the body and therefore makes it a person; some consider birth the "deadline"...

and in fact there are probably as many different views on this as there are people considering the possibilities.

one thing is incontrovertible in this argument...the MOTHER is definitely a PERSON. how much is HER life worth? is she entitled to decide what her body produces?

now...if abortion were not an option and all compromised fetuses were mandatorily birthed...who is going to look after them? and who is going to guarantee that they are WELL cared for? i recently saw a story about a school for autistic and disabled kids that exposed systemic abuse of the kids there by the teachers...and the teachers apparently had "tenure" and could not be fired.

but i have to agree in the end that these kids, disabled though they may seem, ONCE BORN have a right to life...we don't know what the future holds in terms of helping such people...but it behooves the general public (for the sake of the kids, family and the rest of us too) to make sure they can be cared for without DESTROYING THEIR FAMILY OF ORIGIN...who may not be able to pay for their care. and HOW we do that is one of many hot contention points in today's divisive viewpoints. should we leave this up to charitable folk? should we consider it a right of all living humans to be cared for, and thus the responsibility of taxpayers to come up with the money?

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katatonic
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posted May 03, 2012 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
euthanasia is so tricky, even in normal people's cases. an old woman i know recently had a stroke and feared being a vegetable so much she truly desired a trip to oregon and ending it all. then one day she crossed over into full dementia. she is only nominally living in the present, preferring to dwell in some version of the 60s-70s when she was in her prime. she still recognizes her kids and friends even though we are all older now, but she is not really "with us" in a practical sense.

but she is happy. would suicide have been better? perhaps, if her continued existence was a huge drain on her family, but she is covered so it is not. again i have to ask, are people like this solely their own responsibility when they get to such a stage? or should provision be made through taxing the general public so that NONE of us are left living a life not worth continuing? some families have been destroyed by such a situation. should they be called lazy and shiftless for seeking public aid?

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katatonic
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posted May 03, 2012 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i have had several pets, by the way, that the vet recommended putting down as a kindness to end suffering. i could never do it, and i couldn't to a child either. as long as there is life there is hope, right? in most of those cases the animal survived to live a long healthy happy life! in two, they died anyway...we all die of something.

but my own mother chose NOT TO CONTINUE her life in constant pain but to ALLOW it to end...when she had that option. i would not argue with her choice for one nanosecond...it was her conscious choice.

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SpooL
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posted May 03, 2012 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpooL     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The exact same topic came up during the fascist period before and during the second world war.

I guess were going back to "extremism" that
mankind has supposed to have learnt from.

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BearsArcher
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posted May 05, 2012 03:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BearsArcher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
pandacake,

Do you have any children?

My children were absolutely human beings before they were born. I don't know how anyone can look at a newborn baby and think, "I would have killed you a few minutes ago, before you were born, no problem."

All the intelligence and beauty of a baby is there being formed inside the womb.


Beautifully put. Sadly, I don't have children but that isn't because I did not want children. Sadly, I have had many miscarriages but I knew that as I got older there would be a chance of having a "disabled" child. I believe they deserve as much love as any other baby. I have a very dear friend that was only 20 when she had a Down Syndrome little boy. He is now 40 years old and is still thriving. He works, lives in a home with other disabled adults and has a great relationship with his mother.

He is caring, loving and funny as hell (he loves to tease people). I have played shuffleboard with him and he is a tough player. He is the light of my friends life.

I am pro-choice for others but for me, I am pro-life. For me, conception begins when the cells form a tiny fetus in the very first stages. I am a biochem major and had to take many courses on developmental bio, genetics and so forth. But, to each their own. I would never consider an abortion (even if raped.. which I was).

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Odette
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posted May 05, 2012 09:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
My children were absolutely human beings before they were born. I don't know how anyone can look at a newborn baby and think, "I would have killed you a few minutes ago, before you were born, no problem."

quote:
what does anyone lose by caring for these disabled people? What does society lose for trying to make the lives of disabled people as nice as they can?
I think we lose nothing.

quote:
I am pro choice but during the first three months of pregnancy.

to all of that ^

I am only pro-euthanasia if it is at the request the patient, not their parents. If I had a child who was in sheer agony every single day - wishing and hoping for it to end - then I would want the law to respect that. But, as far as I'm concerned, this is not a decision to make for pure practical convenience (because life would be easier without the disabled child).

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katatonic
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posted May 05, 2012 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yes many disabled folk we once would have considered beyond hope have proven, with new knowledge, to be quite able to live happy and productive lives. downs syndrome is no longer even considered a major disability by many. with proper encouragement and care DSers can live very well indeed...

others are not so fortunate and hope for their survival/happiness belongs to the future...the question is what DO we do with such children in the meantime? i note that many "absolute prolifers" ie those who consider a fertilized egg to be a human, are also people who don't care for govt interference or high taxes. so who is going to pay to sustain those who cannot sustain themselves? what if the parents cannot?

what rights do these lives have once born?

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RegardesPlatero
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posted May 24, 2012 07:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RegardesPlatero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted May 24, 2012 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My horrors at the topic.

My 16 year old son remains chronically ill. His physicians in utero wanted us to terminate his life because of quality of life issues for him and for us. It was almost unanimous. We didn't listen. We were told we would be cruel to my son, to ourselves and they predicted our marriage would fall apart quickly from the strain.

Well, we got my son the kidney transplant he needed as a baby. We got him the care of about 30 different specialists. Even then, the physicians gave him less than 20% chance of living past one year old.

He is 16 now. His high school GPA is 3.9. He was said to be mentally challenged and deficient. He speaks six languages fluently and has six AP courses. He is a State spelling champion. He is an orchestra violinist and an accomplished pianist. He's a national level equestrian champion. Most of all, he is living a happy life.

If only we listened to the doctors about how cruel we are to him to let him live. Oh, we were so selfish to not consider his quality of life. The sufferring we put him through!

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pandacake
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posted May 25, 2012 04:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pandacake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^ YTA, I have the utmost respect for you, your wife and your son. What you all have achieved is a inspiring thing, it sure is a challenge not everybody can bear.

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pandacake
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posted May 25, 2012 05:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pandacake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
I'm very strongly pro-choice. I am not going to debate or argue it.

Me too ... I just really empathize with women who have to make such hard decision, nobody considers committing abortion out of fun. And if they do it, they have their reasons. I don't feel I have the right at all to meddle with their lives. All I can do is offer alternatives and options like adoption and make clear to them that there are ways they can get outside support too ...

Also, being pro choice doesn't mean I don't love children. I really do, even trying to get selected to assist severe autistic children as a volunteer this summer. Really hope I will be allowed!

quote:
Originally posted by katatonic:
others are not so fortunate and hope for their survival/happiness belongs to the future...the question is what DO we do with such children in the meantime? i note that many "absolute prolifers" ie those who consider a fertilized egg to be a human, are also people who don't care for govt interference or high taxes. so who is going to pay to sustain those who cannot sustain themselves? what if the parents cannot?

what rights do these lives have once born?


That's a good question. To me, personally, it only seems fair that if people want to impose their will on someone else and are strongly anti-choice, that these people should also make sure that the parents and disabled children could receive proper care and support when needed too no?
Would love to hear the opinion of someone who doesn't agree though. Just genuinely curious, that's all.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted May 25, 2012 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
pandacake,

Thank you for that compliment.

Just to make sure you understand where I stand. I for all forms of government staying out of social issues and family-based decisions.

To that extent, I'm both pro-choice and pro-life. The logic is that the family/lady is in the best position to decide what to do. My stance is that government has no business interfering with personal decisions.

In my example, I don't need the government mandating that I must euthanisize both my sons because their have Asperger's. I have the same thing as well, as does my brother and my two brothers-in-law. We are consider autistic. So what? We must die? Where do you draw the line between that and the facism of WWII?

Most western countries can begin by balancing their budgets and paying down their debt.

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pandacake
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posted May 26, 2012 05:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pandacake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi YTA,
Thank you for expressing your view on this matter, just wanted to let you know that I wholeheartedly agree with you.

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