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Author Topic:   The Dependency Paradox
Aquacheeka
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posted May 14, 2012 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
In a laboratory study, experimenters asked one member of a couple to report how much he/she accepted the other’s dependency (e.g., “I am responsive to my partner’s needs”); higher scores indicated more dependency. The other member of the couple was put in a separate room and given some challenging puzzles to complete. The couples were also given computers to communicate via instant messaging (IM), but this was a ruse. Participants completing the puzzles thought their partners were on the other end of the computer, but really it was an experimenter delivering IMs with direct assistance (hints, advice, or in some cases, solutions to the puzzles).

One might think that the participants with more dependency in their relationships would freely accept this assistance, but instead, the opposite pattern emerged. Those with more dependency actually completed more of the puzzles on their own, independently, and were more likely to reject IMs that contained hints or solutions. Paradoxically, dependence and independence went hand in hand.

In a second study conducted outside the lab, participants listed a personal goal that they would like to achieve on their own in the near future. After 6 months, the experimenters asked participants if they accomplished their goals. Those participants who independently achieved their personal goals (without their partner’s direct assistance) were the ones with more dependency in the relationship.



http://www.scienceofrelationships.com/home/2012/5/14/the-dependency-paradox.html

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 14, 2012 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So says science, the ability to discern who is dependable and trustworthy and then allowing ourselves to trust/depend on them without reserve allows us to find true liberation. Independence comes from embracing how truly dependent on one another for emotional support we really are.


What are your thoughts on this?

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Yin
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posted May 14, 2012 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aquacheeka:
So says science, the ability to discern who is dependable and trustworthy and then allowing ourselves to trust/depend on them without reserve allows us to find true liberation. Independence comes from embracing how truly dependent on one another for emotional support we really are.


What are your thoughts on this?



My thoughts are that I absolutely agree with the above statement.

Have been pondering the dependency/co-dependency subject for a while. When you have a truly supportive partner, whom you trust, you (or I, anyway) are more self-sufficient, more organized, better equipped to deal with adversity. Relying on another human being gives me wings. I know I have to do most things myself but having the emotional support makes all the difference. I'm strong when I feel loved. But doesn't everybody?

When I came to the States, my first impression was that people valued individual freedom and expression a little too much. The "cult of the individual" as I call it. There is no need to put so much stress on personal achievement. Yes, it's important that we are all realized human beings but we don't, can't and SHOULDN'T live or act like we live alone. Our mental health depends on how well we communicate and socialize with others.

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Linda Jones
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posted May 14, 2012 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Linda Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aquacheeka, excellent find!

And it is true. Except that what appears to be a paradox on the surface is actually a paradigm. It makes complete sense that only in accepting our own 'limitations' which include the natural need to relate emotionally with others in relationships are we truly at peace with ourselves and therefore free. The need to trust another in a relationship is as natural as a baby's need for love. It is also true that the more trust there is between two people, the more they can fully function as free or independent thinkers able to perform a myriad of tasks successfully.

However, when we see our need for another as a weakness, we start buying into the notion that independence equals not needing another. But this state of mind creates struggles within a relationship as well as within the individuals themselves, because it goes against what is truly a natural need. Such relationships also often have intimacy issues as, in order to be intimate, it becomes necessary to allow ourselves to be open to needing our partners/spouse.

The real paradox, imo, lies in the mostly western outlook of separateness among individuals when the spiritual truth is actually the opposite-that we are all one, despite having discrete human appearances. This idea of separateness is what causes the ego to flourish and feeds false notions of what it means to be truly independent.

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 14, 2012 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Linda, if I may ask, what sign are you?

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 14, 2012 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yin:

My thoughts are that I absolutely agree with the above statement.

Have been pondering the dependency/co-dependency subject for a while. When you have a truly supportive partner, whom you trust, you (or I, anyway) are more self-sufficient, more organized, better equipped to deal with adversity. Relying on another human being gives me wings. I know I have to do most things myself but having the emotional support makes all the difference. I'm strong when I feel loved. But doesn't everybody?

When I came to the States, my first impression was that people valued individual freedom and expression a little too much. The "cult of the individual" as I call it. There is no need to put so much stress on personal achievement. Yes, it's important that we are all realized human beings but we don't, can't and SHOULDN'T live or act like we live alone. Our mental health depends on how well we communicate and socialize with others.



"The cult of the individual," very compelling and powerful phrase. It invokes an immediate image/reaction in one's mind.

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Linda Jones
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posted May 14, 2012 12:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Linda Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aquacheeka:
Linda, if I may ask, what sign are you?

Of course you may ask, Aquacheeka, and of course I'll let you know. But first let me toy a bit with your intuition. Keeping in mind that we're more than just the Sun sign, can you guess?

Also, what prompted you to ask?

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 14, 2012 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Linda Jones:
Of course you may ask, Aquacheeka, and of course I'll let you know. But first let me toy a bit with your intuition. Keeping in mind that we're more than just the Sun sign, can you guess?

Also, what prompted you to ask?


Do you have the influence of one of the transpersonal signs as your sun or moon (Aquarius or Pisces)? The reason I ask is because of this article: http://astro-chologist.com/oprah-and-company-the-crusade-against-egoism/. It's sort of left an indelible impression on me since reading it; apparently people who villify the ego tend to be Aquarius- and Pisces-centric because they're not capable of understanding it [why an ego is even necessary]. The astrologer on that website showed me the article after I had been railing against people with large egos myself . It would simply never occur to me that there may be something wrong with us and that a certain amount of ego expression may actually be healthy.

So now whenever I hear people villifying society's obsession with ego, which I am inclined to do myself, I have to wonder if they're Aquarians or Pisceans.

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Yin
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posted May 14, 2012 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Linda, you sound airy(make a good argument) and Venusian(write well) to me at the same time. My guess would be Libra. However, your statement was a little short and more to the point than what a Libra would have written.

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Linda Jones
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posted May 14, 2012 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Linda Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aquacheeka and Yin,

You are both right I think. I'll tell you in just a bit. First, I'll address my understanding of the ego (Aquacheeka, I haven't read the link you posted yet).

I see ego as being psychologically essential in developing individual identities (from our parents) as we grow into young adults. This psychological separation from our parents in quest of our individual identities makes us experience a lot of turmoil in our teenage years.

However, once we've finished developing our identities, the ego can begin to create problems for us especially if the love we received in childhood was deficient in some way. So I see the ego as a double edged sword. On the one hand it is necessary for the individualization of our identities, on the other, it becomes the bane of our existence if we didn't get adequate childhood love and care.

And if we define the ego (crudely) as being a cover up for our own perceived weaknesses, and our perceived weaknesses will be, to a lesser or greater degree, dependent on the childhood love we receive, then we can potentially spend all of our adult lives using the ego as a barrier to healthy relationships.

So what is a 'healthy' ego? Frankly, imo, there is no such thing as we're always trying to battle with it in order to control it, lest it control us. I think our greatest battles in life are with our own ego.

If we think about it some more, and incorporate some basic spiritual principles into the picture, we can see (I at least can see) that the cause of almost all human suffering lies with the ego.

Understanding and incorporation of spiritual beliefs and principles then becomes necessary in the battle with the ego. Even in the absence of adequate childhood love and care, we can still over time, develop an understanding of what is real and what is ego (I believe the ego is unreal or our false self), by developing our own spirituality. I believe the ONLY effective weapon against the ego is the development of our spirituality. It brings light where there is darkness-like turning on a light switch in a darkened room. You don't have to fight the darkness, you just have to turn on the light.

Do you guys now think as you did originally about my astrological influences?

Yin, I'm sometimes embarrassed about how lengthy my posts can be.

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ghanima81
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posted May 14, 2012 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ghanima81     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cancer?

But it's also contrary, so I see Aqua in there as well. The rational and intellectual parts. There is a hint of spiritual/psychological analysis though, so perhaps some Scorpio?

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 14, 2012 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see heavily Piscean influence in a lot of that rhetoric, specifically the need to incorporate spirituality into our day-to-day existence.

On the other hand, whenever I've seen the words "we are all one," it was an Aquarian saying them.

So I am inclined to stick with my original query .

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 14, 2012 03:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps seventh-house/Libra, oftentimes when you can feel a person weighing two opposing ideas against each other in an effort to achieve balance, there is a Libran influence there. They can also come across as contradictory because of this desire for intellectual fairness.

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Linda Jones
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posted May 14, 2012 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Linda Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aquacheeka,

Just got done reading the article you posted. I think the opinion stated is just that-an opinion. But I can see the debate. Whether the ego is viewed as personal or more impersonal/Aqua-like, either way it is still a source of problem in our lives. And the solution is understanding it from a spiritual viewpoint. The understanding necessarily involves taking a step back from very individualized emotions (therefore an Aqua approach, I guess), in order to see the bigger picture.

For the author to say that this approach may be easy for Oprah because of all her Aqua placements, but not for others is one way to look at it. But even this explanation is not the whole picture. There are lots of people, I'm sure who do not have Aqua placements but are deeply spiritual, and thus able to master their ego to the point of being peaceful in their daily lives.

As for my placements-

*RESPECTFULLY EDITED*

I seem to be driven to understand love of a kind that is free from ego hassles. At the same time knowledge, and understanding increase wisdom and bring peace, I feel.

I'm also very, very private and this is the first time I've talked so openly about my placements

**EDIT TO ADD**
Aquacheeka, what you and Yin are sensing as Libra in me is possibly from the heavy Venus effect in my chart. Yin had also correctly guessed air (I have Gem. influence). And what you're sensing as Piscean is possibly the combined effect of 1H Moon plus a prominent Neptune in my chart.

My apologies as I don't mean to derail your thread.

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 14, 2012 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, no! Not at all! I think that is very fascinating, I never would have guessed you had so much grounded energy in your chart because your words are so ethereal. I am so glad you shared that with us! I know it must not have been easy because as you said with the Scorpio/Plutonian influence, and just in general, it can feel very exposing and make you feel a little vulnerable when you reveal your chart to people, it's sort of baring naked your psyche, you know? It's soooo personal and you sort of fear that you'll be judged (actually, I've yet to see a circumstance where it didn't subsequently happen, unfortunately ).So I appreciate that you did that

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Linda Jones
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posted May 14, 2012 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Linda Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^^ Thank you for your words of encouragement, Aquacheeka. Yes, I too have seen the negative (judgmental) effects of revealing one's chart here on LL. It is unfortunate as people succumb to their human nature of wanting to box and label others because it increases their own level of comfort and security-the unknown is feared in general. Regardless, the practice of using someone's chart against them is unkind.

However, my desire to be private has more to do with my spiritual discipline. I believe in the probability of "thought interference" from others as thoughts are very powerful energies we send out into our environment. Protection of our individual psyches becomes very important I think if one is to maintain health in life and relationships and be of effective service to others.

About my groundedness, yeah, people are generally surprised by it. I guess it allows me to make my very Neptunian outlook an actual reality in my life versus keeping the two compartmentalized as most people tend to do. It also allows me to have a strong sense of self. For example, I'm not so much bothered by what others think of certain astrological aspects I have, as I know myself fairly well and know that I've managed to get a handle on my hard aspects so as to be able to use them beneficially. An astrologer once told me that I seem to have continually "reinvented" myself.

It's been nice talking with you even though this is the first time we've actually spoken. But I follow most of your postings and like that you take stands on issues most people would hesitate.

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RegardesPlatero
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posted May 15, 2012 06:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RegardesPlatero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
--

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Faith
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posted May 15, 2012 07:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great thread! I saw myself in the experiment, because I am dependent on my husband for so much but at the end of the day, I'm my own person and love doing things my way. If only because it's my way.

Yin, well said about the cult of the individual. I see a paradox there because so many "individuals" are actually motivated by conformity in my opinion. They try and set themselves apart in standard ways: usually through personal style, body art (hair dye, tattoos, piercings), and consumer goods.

It's rare to find people who really wander outside of the box do something unique.

So I think what separates people is the attitude of singularity more than actual singularity. Does that make sense? It's the ego myth that "I am so different from you. Look how differently we are dressed, and you are a Democrat, I'm a Republican." When, in reality, you might have a ton in common with that person....but you focus on the differences.

Sorry if that's babbling.

Linda, I love your posts. I love that I don't know your sun sign and that you have worked on yourself enough that you just come across as a well-rounded, caring, intelligent person!

Of course I have also witnessed people using chart information negatively here, and that is so unfortunate. I have never posted my chart; lately, I revealed an aspect I have trouble with, and someone picked that up and threw it in my face on another thread. Like, no wonder you are like that, you have XYZ placement.

Grrrrr.......

Why do people feel the need to lump others into categories, and attack the whole category? Does it make us feel superior? Don't we have better things to do with our time? Clean the fridge, write a poem?

Life is short!

But happily the Growth forums down here are relatively free of petty nonsense.

Nice talking with you!

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 15, 2012 11:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Linda Jones:
^^ Thank you for your words of encouragement, Aquacheeka. Yes, I too have seen the negative (judgmental) effects of revealing one's chart here on LL. It is unfortunate as people succumb to their human nature of wanting to box and label others because it increases their own level of comfort and security-the unknown is feared in general. Regardless, the practice of using someone's chart against them is unkind.

However, my desire to be private has more to do with my spiritual discipline. I believe in the probability of "thought interference" from others as thoughts are very powerful energies we send out into our environment. Protection of our individual psyches becomes very important I think if one is to maintain health in life and relationships and be of effective service to others.

About my groundedness, yeah, people are generally surprised by it. I guess it allows me to make my very Neptunian outlook an actual reality in my life versus keeping the two compartmentalized as most people tend to do. It also allows me to have a strong sense of self. For example, I'm not so much bothered by what others think of certain astrological aspects I have, as I know myself fairly well and know that I've managed to get a handle on my hard aspects so as to be able to use them beneficially. An astrologer once told me that I seem to have continually "reinvented" myself.

It's been nice talking with you even though this is the first time we've actually spoken. But I follow most of your postings and like that you take stands on issues most people would hesitate.



Thanks, Linda Yes, it's been nice getting to know you, too. It's nice to be able to make a personal connection with people here... I find it can be a little tough at times because of the lack of pictures, it helps when you can put a face to a name.

I am continually trying to "reign it in" a little bit. I have my Mars in what is arguably the most dogmatic sign so I have to consciously remind myself to not be so blunt when I disagree about something, lol.

I am interested in your wisdom about Neptunian singletons. I have one of those, too. You feel your Neptune very strongly you said? What sign is it in, if I may ask? Mine is in Capricorn and I'm not sure how it manifests, would the Capricorn be pronounced or the Neptune?

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Linda Jones
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posted May 15, 2012 08:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Linda Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^^ Aquacheeka, here's a thread I'd done on singletons, Neptune being one of them. The chart placements in the thread are not mine.
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/211979.html

The way I understand it (and I went into it quite a bit on the singleton thread), you have to consider not just the sign but also the house and the aspects (if any) the singleton is making with other planets.

So if Neptune is in Capricorn, the Capri theme of ambition, success, advancement, hard work. etc. will be present. But the expression of the theme will depend on the house. For eg. in 9H the theme will be directed toward higher education, learning, expansion of consciousness. So the native may want to advance in 9H areas but in a Naptunian/spiritual way.

At the same time, aspects to other inner planets are key. For example, in my chart, Neptune aspects all of my inner planets (except Venus), tinging almost my entire personality with a Neptunian flavor. I believe the aspects to my Moon and Mercury in particular, are important in my Neptunian/spiritual experiences which began as early as age 5.

Here's some of what SaggiMC said about singleton Neptune on the same thread-

"When Neptune is a singleton (or angular, highly aspected, or at a critical degree, 29 or 0), there is a likelihood that the person will have an extraordinary degree of sensitivity. They may be so highly intuitive that they believe they have “psychic powers.” The sensitivity operates on all levels. In the physical, it can correlate with such maladies as “environmental sensitivity,” allergies of all kinds as well as a variety of autoimmune diseases. Narcolepsy (a sleep disorder), and vision problems are Neptunian afflictions. On the mental/emotional level, a person may be sensitive to “higher realms,” and experience mystical inspiration or insane delusions." http://www.astrologyclub.org/

Hope this helps.

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Linda Jones
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posted May 15, 2012 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Linda Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
Linda, I love your posts. I love that I don't know your sun sign and that you have worked on yourself enough that you just come across as a well-rounded, caring, intelligent person!

Thank you, Faith


quote:
Of course I have also witnessed people using chart information negatively here, and that is so unfortunate. I have never posted my chart; lately, I revealed an aspect I have trouble with, and someone picked that up and threw it in my face on another thread. Like, no wonder you are like that, you have XYZ placement.

Grrrrr.......

Why do people feel the need to lump others into categories, and attack the whole category? Does it make us feel superior? Don't we have better things to do with our time? Clean the fridge, write a poem?


I hear you about this and I myself don't like it. While researching on old threads I've come across this sort of thing so many times, that it's disheartening to say the least.

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juniperb
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posted May 15, 2012 08:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Excellent thread

I agree very much with the majority of the posts here.

quote:
Have been pondering the dependency/co-dependency subject for a while. When you have a truly supportive partner, whom you trust, you (or I, anyway) are more self-sufficient, more organized, better equipped to deal with adversity. Relying on another human being gives me wings. I know I have to do most things myself but having the emotional support makes all the difference. I'm strong when I feel loved. But doesn't everybody?

Yes! That partner could be a friend/spouse or lover but the fact remains, we are social beings and a bond of trust is essential to our well being and stability.

quote:
Of course I have also witnessed people using chart information negatively here, and that is so unfortunate. I have never posted my chart; lately, I revealed an aspect I have trouble with, and someone picked that up and threw it in my face on another thread. Like, no wonder you are like that, you have XYZ placement.

Unfortunate but true. On the lighter side, I have known some who have given incorrect placements knowing it would later become an arrow. They got a chuckle when the placements were threw out as a snide " "oh so thats why you are so mean, foolish, or whatever ".....

------------------
Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it. ~Rumi~

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 15, 2012 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Linda Jones:
^^ Aquacheeka, here's a thread I'd done on singletons, Neptune being one of them. The chart placements in the thread are not mine.
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/211979.html

The way I understand it (and I went into it quite a bit on the singleton thread), you have to consider not just the sign but also the house and the aspects (if any) the singleton is making with other planets.

So if Neptune is in Capricorn, the Capri theme of ambition, success, advancement, hard work. etc. will be present. But the expression of the theme will depend on the house. For eg. in 9H the theme will be directed toward higher education, learning, expansion of consciousness. So the native may want to advance in 9H areas but in a Naptunian/spiritual way.

At the same time, aspects to other inner planets are key. For example, in my chart, Neptune aspects all of my inner planets (except Venus), tinging almost my entire personality with a Neptunian flavor. I believe the aspects to my Moon and Mercury in particular, are important in my Neptunian/spiritual experiences which began as early as age 5.

Here's some of what SaggiMC said about singleton Neptune on the same thread-

"When Neptune is a singleton (or angular, highly aspected, or at a critical degree, 29 or 0), there is a likelihood that the person will have an extraordinary degree of sensitivity. They may be so highly intuitive that they believe they have “psychic powers.” The sensitivity operates on all levels. In the physical, it can correlate with such maladies as “environmental sensitivity,” allergies of all kinds as well as a variety of autoimmune diseases. Narcolepsy (a sleep disorder), and vision problems are Neptunian afflictions. On the mental/emotional level, a person may be sensitive to “higher realms,” and experience mystical inspiration or insane delusions." http://www.astrologyclub.org/

Hope this helps.



Thank you, Linda! Neptune is in my 6th house, so I might finally have a chart explanation for my OCD . There is an out-of-sign conjunction with my Mercury; it's the only aspect Neptune makes with my personal planets, though. I guess it would enhance my sense of spirituality? (That, or make me more foggy-headed and forgetful, right?) Unfortunately (or fortunately as it were from the sound of some of those Neptunianian ailments/afflictions ), none of the physical hypersensitivities pertained to me. I am pretty sensitive to smoking in my environment, though. Always have been.

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Aquacheeka
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posted May 15, 2012 08:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
Unfortunate but true. On the lighter side, I have known some who have given incorrect placements knowing it would later become an arrow. They got a chuckle when the placements were threw out as a snide " "oh so thats why you are so mean, foolish, or whatever ".....

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Linda Jones
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posted May 15, 2012 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Linda Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
Unfortunate but true. On the lighter side, I have known some who have given incorrect placements knowing it would later become an arrow. They got a chuckle when the placements were threw out as a snide " "oh so thats why you are so mean, foolish, or whatever ".....

This is hilarious!

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