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Author Topic:   Cynicism
SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 04:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Watch what people are cynical about and one can often discover what they lack."

I find this to be extremely true.

quote:
General Patton is often quoted for saying, “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.” He may have been talking about Army soldiers, but he understood that cynicism anywhere comes from an unfulfilled need.

Thoughts?

ETA for clarity.

quote:
cyn·i·cal/ˈsinikəl/
Adjective:
Believing that people are motivated by self-interest; distrustful of human sincerity or integrity.
Doubtful as to whether something will happen or is worthwhile.
cyn·i·cal   [sin-i-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
like or characteristic of a cynic; distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.
2.
showing contempt for accepted standards of honesty or morality by one's actions, especially by actions that exploit the scruples of others.
3.
bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic.

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T
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posted May 25, 2012 05:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The most cynical people I've known have also been the most sensitive. They couldnt be that way without being super sensitive ....and they are usually extremely caring with those they love once you get to know them or they allow you to get below that surface. Cynicism can be healthy for a certain type of person, who has been through a lot in their life. It can be healing, theraputic, it can also be a protective mechanism and much needed to survive in this world. I don't see it as negative. It takes a perceptive and equally sensitive and caring person to see below a cynic's surface and see their beauty and not be hurt by it or judge it or try to find something they think the other person is lacking.

I don't know if what they are cynical about shows "what they lack", but does indicate that the person is much more sensitive than the average person.

I wish there were more of them out there. I appreciate their raw honesty and choosing to look at things without sugar coating them.

IMO, they have the best senses of humor & often make great comedians.

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charmainec
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posted May 25, 2012 05:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for charmainec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with T about it being protective mechanism, especially for a person who has endured much pain. They do tend to be quite sensitive beings.

------------------

quote:
Remember, love can conquer the influences of the planets....It can even eliminate karma.

Linda Goodman

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T
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posted May 25, 2012 05:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

....it's a Saturn thing.

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teasel
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posted May 25, 2012 05:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I seem to alternate between a certain amount of naivete and real cynicism. I've been really lucky in ways that others haven't been (so far, anyway, where my parents are concerned), but in other ways, I've really been burnt.

Funny this topic should come up now. I've felt okay for the past couple of nights - until this movie just got to me (Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants). I won't get into why it did, but I was just crying, and then saw this. Hopefully I'll feel better again later - just need to cry a bit occasionally.

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T
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posted May 25, 2012 05:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by teasel:
I seem to alternate between a certain amount of naivete and real cynicism..

Same here.

& i was just thinking of someone i use to know that was quite cynical. The person was extremely wounded. Deep down a very loving and deeply sensitive person, but almost no one ever got to see that side. Sad.

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teasel
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posted May 25, 2012 05:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, I have Saturn inconjunct Neptune! Also square Mercury, Jupiter and Pluto.
Then with Neptune trine Jupiter and the MC, and Jupiter widely sextile my Moon/Venus conjunction, I can see how the above works out for me.

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 06:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Makes sense T. I don't see it as negative, im asking because it was hard enough once living with a highly cynical person for ten years and that person is now back in my life. It may come accross that Im shallow about it but nothing could be further from the truth. He was a person who went through much pain and dissapointment. I know what I'm cynical about but I don't express it, so, when I read that quote it rang true as a current theme I'm dealing with where ever I look. Thank you for your thoughts

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 07:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think to say if your are cynical that makes you automatically pragmatic, that may be true to a degree, I'm just wandering if that is an easy route, I find it too easy to be cynical, introspectively speaking. Not to say it doesn't have a purpose, ive had the best laughs from cynics and the most hurtful experiences. Eh I'm on some strange wavelength tonight.

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 07:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thinking further. It is from my experience with cynics that after all the fun and enlightenment gained, there's an abrasiveness that has always hurt me and crushed me. It's always happened with every cynic I've known. My 2nd stepfather was one too, highly, cynical but highly pragmatic, funny, witty. I've had my guts crushed as it feels and I've spent nights bawling from hurt.. It's like I can't take it anymore. I am down to using a communication book with the most recent one. I need a lot more insight so my ego can stop feeling sorry for itself. Because I've given everything I had to show compassion for him (and others) I feel burned.

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 07:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I get down about it because cynics can really start to embellish 'it' when they often don't realise they are hurting someone, as long as they feel good and have a good laugh, right? ( these are just thoughts with my ex in mind and step fatherS ).
And beware if you want to be all positive around them (as it comes naturally like the air I breath for my temperament.)
I want to understand so I can avoid taking it personally when I communicate with that person so my daughter can learn how to deal with it by my example. We are both fragile and are masters at hiding it.

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PixieJane
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posted May 25, 2012 08:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I'm proven wrong about something (from guessing a person's motivations & intent to predicting what the government is going to do) it's almost always because I wasn't cynical enough. However, people have almost always told me I'm too cynical. I find that very interesting.

quote:
Originally posted by SunChild:
"Watch what people are cynical about and one can often discover what they lack."

I find this to be extremely true.

Thoughts?


I don't understand what's being said here. Can you give an example?

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 08:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An example is easy

My ex lacked worldly success, status, money, sophistication, achievments, higher education,

There for it made him cynical about all that. (brooding resentment)

Then, his spiritual ideals were foiled by 1 charlatan so he became highly cynical about anything remotely spiritual (hurt, embarrassment )

I can go on....

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 08:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Worldly cynics are those on a mission. I have faith in them. Just can't give any more to the contaminate cynics. I'm sure there are several shades of cynic so its kind of wrong to generalize.

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PixieJane
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posted May 25, 2012 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks.

In that case I don't agree with it. What immediately comes to mind are people who strive for what they don't have, look up to it and worship the fictional characters that have it, and I believe include a few people who pretend to have these things (such as wealth and status that they don't actually possess) when presenting themselves on the internet because they believe it makes them appear better than they are (and they don't say anything bad about it). People who don't know martial arts seem to think it a lot more amazing than the masters do as well (though I have heard ignorant people scoff at it, though not often and I've heard more people claim prowess they don't have instead). The people who most likely think how wonderful it is to be married have probably never been married. That is a great many people seem at least as likely to be naive or have romanticized notions about what they don't have and want than be cynical of it.

And there are wealthy people who are cynical of other wealthy people, poor people cynical of other poor people, and while there are also poor people cynical of the wealthy there are also the wealthy cynical of the poor, and so even when one might apply the "cynical because of lack" rule it gets ridiculous to me to say "the wealthy are cynical of the poor because they lack poverty."

It's easy to be cynical of those one doesn't know, however, because one usually remembers those who did them wrong (as pain makes sure it's remembered) while those who did them no harm or even did them a kindness are much less likely to be remembered (save in the most extraordinary circumstances, but then there's pain there again that makes the mercy memorable). And when cruelty or callousness is remembered more vividly than peaceful coexistence and even kindness then it's easy to become wary of people of a different background (racial, economic, etc).

Of course cynicism is sometimes justified and the product of repeated experience and observation. Perhaps this could be called wisdom, whereas someone who lacks the ability to learn also lacks cynicism.

Though 1 charlatan making someone highly cynical about anything remotely spiritual doesn't strike me as wise anymore than become extremely cynical because of one quack (or even a honest medical mistake--which, btw, are frighteningly common making hospitals dangerous places to be) should make someone highly cynical about all things medical and scientific, or a criminal act making someone very distrusting of everyone who shares the race or gender of the criminal. That's not wisdom, that's mental laziness.

And then there are plenty of people who give cynical descriptions of the police who are themselves cops (or used to be), a lawyer who told me to never trust another lawyer (and told me things like any lawyer could pass an ethics exam by answering any & all questions with "I would not take that case under any circumstance"), academics against academia (some of the amazing & cynical stories I've heard from their personal experience are mind boggling!), and some of the most cynical of schools are themselves teachers (including the 1991 Teacher of the Year John Gatto).

And as for the military...I wonder what Patton would say Major General Smedley Butler lacked for being one of the most cynical men of the military that I've ever heard of? (Btw, multiple people warned me against joining the military, and they had nearly all been soldiers themselves once.)

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Yin
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posted May 25, 2012 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cynics are miserable people. Miserable people make me miserable so I avoid them.

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PixieJane
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posted May 25, 2012 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I avoid miserable people, too, but not all cynics are miserable. Some have a wicked sense of humor, such as Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain) and George Carlin.

Of course it's possible we're all defining "cynic" a little (or even a lot) differently...

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Yin
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posted May 25, 2012 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
Of course it's possible we're all defining "cynic" a little (or even a lot) differently...

Of course we are! Hence my generalization.

BTW, I can be as cynical as they come, but I'd rather be a big girl and seek out positive experiences.

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PixieJane
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posted May 25, 2012 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds like you're talking about what I'd call "pessimists" rather than cynics.

And I know as for me I've gotten happier with cynicism because I stopped being so bitterly disappointed by my unrealistic expectations of thinking people were better than they were and I'm much more likely to be pleasantly surprised than I used to be and less likely to hold grudges (as I no longer feel betrayed or upset by common human foibles & weaknesses since I've come to expect and accept them, at least to a point). And now I shrug & laugh off a lot more than I used to and thus tend to be more relaxed & easy going.

And generally speaking my motto is hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Though I don't know if I'm a cynic or not. Many say I am, but more often than not I find I'm not cynical enough. I also seem to have a lot less anxiety about the future than many others do, including even many of the people who say I'm too cynical (perhaps this is because they're cynical as well but about different things and think their cynicism is just noting the facts but my cynicism is questioning what they have faith in so call me too cynical while ironically being just as cynical themselves, maybe even more so, only in a different way).

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jane I expressed how it is manifest in my ex. It's very true, I can't say it's true for every single cynic. Though I've seen the lack= cynicism aspect a lot so I find it sadly spot on. Not sure if I get your post though at all.

Ah I'm going to avoid cynics for a while, it crushes my spirit. Cynics are deep down miserable. I give up after ten years. Ick.

I had funny dreams last night, it was along the lines of showing me how ALL humans are sensitive creatures and people have varying ways to protect themselves. Like everyone morphed into vulnerable fluffy animals who all took on unique different attitudes. It looked really funny and sad at the same time.

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok I read your recent post, I understand what you meant now.

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 03:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You have a great motto Jane.

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Look to the future; see to it that the continual performance of duty under the guidance of a well developed Intuition shall keep the balance well poised. Ah! If your eyes were opened, you might see such a vista of potential blessings to yourselves and mankind lying in the germ of the present hour’s effort, as would fire with joy and zeal your souls!
- Masters Words

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yin:
Cynics are miserable people. Miserable people make me miserable so I avoid them.

Me too, I become depressed from it


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Look to the future; see to it that the continual performance of duty under the guidance of a well developed Intuition shall keep the balance well poised. Ah! If your eyes were opened, you might see such a vista of potential blessings to yourselves and mankind lying in the germ of the present hour’s effort, as would fire with joy and zeal your souls!
- Masters Words

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SunChild
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posted May 25, 2012 04:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This will be my last post for a while. Going on a computer/screen free break. Want to open up space for other things. I've moved the computer out of the main room and will be deleting all web based activities from my iPhone. A screen detox I call it.


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Look to the future; see to it that the continual performance of duty under the guidance of a well developed Intuition shall keep the balance well poised. Ah! If your eyes were opened, you might see such a vista of potential blessings to yourselves and mankind lying in the germ of the present hour’s effort, as would fire with joy and zeal your souls!
- Masters Words

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PixieJane
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posted May 25, 2012 10:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see a difference here, when I think of a cynic I think of a skeptic who trusts a message or organization or whatever only with a degree of caution and vigilance. That is to say a kid who refuses to take candy from strangers is getting practice in being a cynic by not trusting the good intentions of the stranger, but that doesn't mean the kid is miserable because s/he realizes not everyone in the world means well. Of course such a kid COULD be miserable from an inability to trust (that is, blind cynicism could be as bad as blind faith), but it's not required, and s/he is less likely to be traumatized than the kid who has faith that all people s/he meets mean well.

And I think I finally get what Patton was getting at: sour grapes. Of course this assumes the defining characteristic of a cynic is disappointment more than disillusionment (and I think disillusionment is more likely to come from experience rather than failing to experience) which doesn't mesh well with how I think of cynics which helps explain why I have a hard time grasping what he said.

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