posted October 15, 2012 06:44 PM            

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Originally posted by C1ND3R:

It's every woman's fantasy, i guess...

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erm, no, not this woman`s fantasy.
Or actually the writing style did disturb any kind of fantasy I might have had.
Also found it to be a bit boring, yes, the sex scenes as well .

Well, I don´t want to say anything; whoever likes it, perfectly okay.
Just wanted to point out it is not EVERY woman`s fantasy.

posted October 15, 2012 06:46 PM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
I read the first two and a half of the 3rd. i was bored. I don't know why everyone said it was so racy

Mars in Scorpio. Of course! xx

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Exactly.

Actually I have been reading "racier" scenes in some fantasy novels.
Though, after having read some of Christine Feehans`, now that was REALLY A turn off. *shudder*

posted October 15, 2012 07:14 PM            

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:

erm, no, not this woman`s fantasy.
Or actually the writing style did disturb any kind of fantasy I might have had.
Also found it to be a bit boring, yes, the sex scenes as well .

Well, I don´t want to say anything; whoever likes it, perfectly okay.
Just wanted to point out it is not EVERY woman`s fantasy.

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Yes, I thought it was boring, too. The 1st book was good but then it felt like the author was going for cheap thrills, as if the reader was stupid

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted December 30, 2012 10:23 AM            

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From Fifty Sheds of Grey:

"Hurt me!" she begged, raising her skirt as she bent over the workbench.

"Very well," I replied, "You've got fat ankles and no dress sense."

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posted January 07, 2013 02:43 AM            

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Originally posted by ail221:
He's actually a Gemini sun and no I didnt like the book.

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See Spot Run was more deserving of being published.

posted September 06, 2014 11:29 PM            

I think the energy will be right:d

Reading the books at the time, I could see the dominant Grey as scorpio, capricorn or taurus.

Ana could be a libra, pisces, gemini.

posted September 07, 2014 09:20 PM            

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Originally posted by libragrrrl0923:
The taurus men that I have been with have been dominant with me in bed and not in the abusive way. That's why I thought taurus

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I can see Christian as a Taurus (the bad kind, not the typical kind), but as I reread this trying to find what exactly was said I couldn't help but notice this.

It's false. Btw, that guy who explains the difference between kinky and assault, BDSM and rape, is deeply into BDSM himself. He's not against it if it's play, but what that book described was clearly abuse.

posted September 07, 2014 09:36 PM            

There's actually a really good Reddit post about this that explains it far better than I ever could:

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BDSM is a community that believes in safety & comfort. Consent is always necessary, and partners take care of each other. After acts and roleplays, partners comfort each other to help transition out of that zone. FSOG does not include any of this. Mr. Grey gives Anastasia (a then-virgin) an ultimatum; to sign a contract or leave. She is sexually inexperienced (being a virgin) and he manipulates that to push her boundaries to make it seem like the sexually violent things he is doing to her are okay. There are instances where after an act, he is mad at her for being upset, but does not comfort her. He uses alcohol to sway her consent - this is by law rape. There is also an instance where she uses the safe word, yet he continues. That is consent being retracted, and Christian ignores the retraction of consent. That is sexual assault.
Those are not the only problematic instances. Anastasia begins to hide things in fear of Christian's anger. He becomes jealous and easily angered. Anastasia fears for her safety. Experts have even matched her behavior with that of abused women, in accordance with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's description of partner violence.
This book completely throws people who participate in BDSM completely under the bus by misrepresenting BDSM as a whole. Bad people do sneak into BDSM to find a way to escape persecution for their violent ways, but the majority of those in BDSM are not abusive, like this book would have you believe.
This book romanticizes and fetishizes abuse, and painting abuse in a 'sexy' and 'fun' light is really dangerous for women. 1 in 5 women will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime, that's why this book should not be defended. Making this behavior seem okay to accept from a man is dangerous, and people will be influenced to dabble in 'BDSM,' but not have an actual idea of what it is, and they will get hurt.

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Link from here: http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/2byz2l/many_women_do_not_agree_with_me_on_this_subject

posted September 07, 2014 09:37 PM            

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Originally posted by fenia:
Ana could be a libra, pisces, gemini.

What do you think?

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And btw, I could see an unhealthy Pisces or Gemini being Anna, but I like to think even an unhealthy (and unbalanced--same thing to Libra) Libra wouldn't be inclined to be as her. I'd make a case for that but I did know one Libra who submitted to something similar and even made it permanent (though he wasn't rich or attractive, and I blame all the self-destructive Scorpio in her chart along with unresolved intense abuse from her childhood) and a couple of books by Anne Rice makes me think the author might actually love at least a fling like that (but then she has a Pisces moon, Scorpio Mars & Saturn, and Chiron in Pisces, a mix that might make her want to experience true degradation just to learn more about herself and human nature, and also overlook a lot as long she's the focus of his attention). Furthermore, the OP looks as if she's a Libra, too.

As for me, I'm a Libra...if Christian Grey pulled some of that crap on me, he'd be in a shallow grave.

posted September 08, 2014 12:49 AM            

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Originally posted by socialgraffiti:
Mehhhh. As a person interested in BDSM, I don't think the book really portrayed it in a healthy light. TBH, the book was more about abuse and manipulation than consensual sex.

There's actually a really good Reddit post about this that explains it far better than I ever could:

Link from here: http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/2byz2l/many_women_do_n ot_agree_with_me_on_this_subject

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Totally agree. I read parts of the book and as a person actively involved in the bdsm, this is absolutely an incorrect portrayal of a healthy, consensual, sane bdsm relationship. I've read horror stories about lovers who have tried to replicate scenes from the book and things have gone horribly wrong, people using the book as an cover up to abuse and torture each other in an insane and non-consensual manner. It's extremely disturbing and also paints the bdsm community in a negative light.

posted September 17, 2014 08:34 PM            

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Emotional abuse is present in nearly every interaction, including: stalking (Christian deliberately follows Anastasia and appears in unusual places, uses a phone and computer to track Anastasia's whereabouts, and delivers expensive gifts); intimidation (Christian uses intimidating verbal and nonverbal behaviors, such as routinely commanding Anastasia to eat and threatening to punish her); and isolation (Christian limits Anastasia's social contact). Sexual violence is pervasive—including using alcohol to compromise Anastasia's consent, as well as intimidation (Christian initiates sexual encounters when genuinely angry, dismisses Anastasia's requests for boundaries, and threatens her). Anastasia experiences reactions typical of abused women, including: constant perceived threat (“my stomach churns from his threats”); altered identity (describes herself as a “pale, haunted ghost”); and stressful managing (engages in behaviors to “keep the peace,” such as withholding information about her social whereabouts to avoid Christian's anger). Anastasia becomes disempowered and entrapped in the relationship as her behaviors become mechanized in response to Christian's abuse.

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And again on how it violates the standards of consensual and playful BDSM:

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The Fifty Shades plot involves central tensions between BDSM practices and romance. As a general practice, BDSM can include a range of activities that may be played out within and outside of sexual contexts; typically the activities include aspects of power and pain, with consent (agreement about the activities from involved parties).46–48 Within the context of consensual BDSM relationships, substance abuse negates consent, negotiations and contracts are taken seriously, and boundaries are respected.46 Additionally, while there are variations in opinions about what constitutes “acceptable BDSM,” many involved in BDSM are uncomfortable with activities that perpetuate traditional gender role dynamics, such as rape and domestic violence scenes.46 In Fifty Shades, the couple's BDSM practices involve Christian as the “dominant” and Anastasia as the “submissive.” In sexual settings, Christian uses power and pain manipulations, such as restraint and physical punishment, which are both terrifying and exciting to Anastasia; as we will argue in this manuscript, Anastasia is coerced into these sexual activities. Christian also attempts power and pain exchanges in nonsexual settings, such as in the couple's interactions at restaurants and in e-mail correspondence. While Christian seems comfortable concentrating on and nurturing BDSM aspects of the relationship, claiming he is not a “hearts and flowers” guy (p. 110), Anastasia desires and values “romance”; her ideas about “romance” include envisioning Christian as one of the literary characters she has read about, for example, “he's not a dark knight at all but a white knight in shining, dazzling armor—a classic romantic hero—Sir Gawain or Sir Lancelot” (p. 69).27

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posted September 17, 2014 10:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Someone sent me this today:
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/jwh.2013.4344?src=recsys

And again on how it violates the standards of consensual and playful BDSM:

[QUOTE]The Fifty Shades plot involves central tensions between BDSM practices and romance. As a general practice, BDSM can include a range of activities that may be played out within and outside of sexual contexts; typically the activities include aspects of power and pain, with consent (agreement about the activities from involved parties).46–48 Within the context of consensual BDSM relationships, substance abuse negates consent, negotiations and contracts are taken seriously, and boundaries are respected.46 Additionally, while there are variations in opinions about what constitutes “acceptable BDSM,” many involved in BDSM are uncomfortable with activities that perpetuate traditional gender role dynamics, such as rape and domestic violence scenes.46 In Fifty Shades, the couple's BDSM practices involve Christian as the “dominant” and Anastasia as the “submissive.” In sexual settings, Christian uses power and pain manipulations, such as restraint and physical punishment, which are both terrifying and exciting to Anastasia; as we will argue in this manuscript, Anastasia is coerced into these sexual activities. Christian also attempts power and pain exchanges in nonsexual settings, such as in the couple's interactions at restaurants and in e-mail correspondence. While Christian seems comfortable concentrating on and nurturing BDSM aspects of the relationship, claiming he is not a “hearts and flowers” guy (p. 110), Anastasia desires and values “romance”; her ideas about “romance” include envisioning Christian as one of the literary characters she has read about, for example, “he's not a dark knight at all but a white knight in shining, dazzling armor—a classic romantic hero—Sir Gawain or Sir Lancelot” (p. 69).27

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I don't agree to this. Anastasia is not abused in the relationship. She is a true submissive at heart and she enjoys his controlling behaviour. She wants his attention and his dominating behaviour. She finds him sexy because he intimidates her. Even if she denies his punishment, she is expecting it with pleasure and smiles at the thought that she made him mad and he would punish her (it's in the 3 book).

And when we are talking about passionate love and lust at the highest levels, there is not such thing as stalking (in my opinion).. you want the presence of the significant other, he doesn't suffocate you because you have this need to consume each other, Christian is not creepy to her.. And she is not trapped, she leaved him in a week..

Now, I don't say that women would experience it like this in real life, it's only an imaginary character, a fantasy in a fake world. And I do believe tortured women, who have been abused before, are usually the ones into this kind of attitudes and relationships.

posted September 17, 2014 10:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by fenia:
That character, in an imaginary world, is not abused in my point of view.

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And I disagree with you and cringe at how many women love these works (though being raised on romance drivel and tales like Beauty and the Beast I suppose I can see how such women are trained to think such abuse is actually love). I see it as clearly demonstrating abuse and Ana shows standard patterns of one abused but accepting of it due to weakness and damage. She's not strong, she's weak and/or sick. (Actually, so is Christian, in the emotional sense at least.)

However, that one part I quoted I can agree with in that one isn't actually abused in a fantasy. That is, when one someone fantasizes about rape and abuse the violence and such done against them is still completely in the control of the "victim" as well as the consequences not being a problem (and that's typically true enough in a consensual BDSM as well). In this sense the reader can vicariously enjoy a masochistic fantasy but put the book down, no harm done, and I don't see it as that different from someone who vents through video games, no harm done despite the carnage racked up in the game. (There's even studies suggesting that such escapism actually decreases the chance of the ones enjoying it acting it out in real life which is good.)

posted September 17, 2014 10:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
And I disagree with you and cringe at how many women love these works. I see it as clearly demonstrating abuse and Ana shows standard patterns of one abused but accepting of it due to weakness and damage. She's not strong, she's weak and/or sick. (Actually, so is Christian, in the emotional sense at least.)

However, that one part I quoted I can agree with in that one isn't actually abused in a fantasy. That is, when one someone fantasizes about rape and abuse the violence and such done against them is still completely in the control of the "victim" as well as the consequences not being a problem (and that's typically true enough in a consensual BDSM as well). In this sense the reader can vicariously enjoy a masochistic fantasy but put the book down, no harm done, and I don't see it as that different from someone who vents through video games, no harm done despite the carnage racked up in the game. (There's even studies suggesting that such escapism actually decreases the chance of the ones enjoying it acting it out in real life which is good.)

But when people mistake the fantasy for reality, or when they say 50 Shades of Grey (or Grand Theft Auto) is an ideal to achieve in real life (or even that Christian isn't abusive), then that's where it becomes a problem, both because it's unhealthy and destructive, and also because women like that are giving men the green light (and even encouragement!) to act as vile (even criminal) as Christian. As a fantasy (or a book you can put down), it's fine, but under no circumstances should you say that "this is what healthy women want in real life" or even encourage men to act as vile as Christian toward women. Or if you do then you should jump in to defend the men (including at LL) who say women just want to date jerks and bad boys, at least if they're cute and/or rich.

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posted September 18, 2014 04:57 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

But when people mistake the fantasy for reality, or when they say 50 Shades of Grey (or Grand Theft Auto) is an ideal to achieve in real life (or even that Christian isn't abusive), then that's where it becomes a problem,

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Agree..

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Though being raised on romance drivel and tales like Beauty and the Beast I suppose I can see how such women are trained to think such abuse is actually love).

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And speaking of beauty and the beast, your post reminds me of this great vid I watched yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct-CdyT4HkM

posted September 19, 2014 12:56 AM            

Brilliant (and just added to my favorite YT vid playlist)!

posted September 19, 2014 10:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I can see Christian as a Taurus (the bad kind, not the typical kind), but as I reread this trying to find what exactly was said I couldn't help but notice this.

It's false. Btw, that guy who explains the difference between kinky and assault, BDSM and rape, is deeply into BDSM himself. He's not against it if it's play, but what that book described was clearly abuse.

Gods, if Aquaguy ever reads that book (or even finds a cheat sheet like this) he's going to have a field day throwing it at people at LL (especially those admitting they love it) the next time someone argues his assertions that women like jerks and bad boys as long as he's hot and/or rich. It's why I cringe every time I realize how popular this book is. (OTOH, I just realized that Aquaguy could actually become a best selling author by describing women exactly as he sees them but appearing to approve as such a woman gets exactly what she wants in the novel he writes...and using a female pseudonym for himself as the author. )

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