posted April 08, 2013 10:23 PM            

The author doesn't condemn it per se, but questions how healthy a social ecosystem is when it's seen as the only valid option. She claims that many of her interviewees expressed a malaise or ambivalence about it - that they didn't feel particularly happy with the status quo, but that it seemed like the thing to do.

From working on a University campus and overseeing the work of (mostly) undergrads, I can say that I saw the same thing. A few randomly asked me for advice or what I thought about a particular situation they were in (which was always surprising - anyone else in their 30s still look around to see who a person's *really* talking to when they begin addressing you as "the responsible adult"?), and they so often seemed so hurt without knowing why.

What're your thoughts (especially if you've read the article)?

posted April 08, 2013 11:15 PM            

Edited to add: I'm not sure how scary it is to the parents of these kids anymore (it's how *they* rebelled, after all), except insofar as they may hate to see their kids' sadness.

That's not to say that the author (or I) am judging casual sex, but I can see how the expectation that it's what everyone should do (and enjoy doing) could knock some kids out of whack. They do it because that's what all of their friends are doing and are at least pretending to have great fun doing, but - both according to this author and a few of the convos I've had - some of these kids feel trapped by expectation.

Social pressure's a hell of thing, especially when you're in a new setting.

posted April 08, 2013 11:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mockingbird:
Something interesting that the author addresses (and which ag has referenced in past convos), is that rather than being a form of rebellion, it's become the default way to conform.

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posted April 08, 2013 11:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
the hook-up culture has cheapened intimacy and created a generation of people who dont know how to have real relationships.

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Very true. Intimacy is from the neck up. The other is a cheap imitation.

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 08, 2013 11:37 PM            

I suppose that the same can be said for the inverse, though, and this is just a case of the pendulum's swing.

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Mods: I think I've kept this low key, but let me know if this is crossing over the bounds of what you'd like in this forum.

posted April 08, 2013 11:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Very true. Intimacy is from the neck up. The other is a cheap imitation.

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That's the thing, though - this isn't supposed to be about intimacy.
In part, it's supposed to show that you don't need "intimacy" to enjoy sex.
Some don't.
I think the paradigm's fallen apart for those that do, however.

posted April 08, 2013 11:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mockingbird:
[b]Something interesting that the author addresses (and which ag has referenced in past convos), is that rather than being a form of rebellion, it's become the default way to conform.

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In the last days, people will call good evil and evil good. Urrggg xxx

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 09, 2013 12:17 AM            

What I have noticed is a sort of 'sex as an answer" approach amongst early 20's mid 30's people.

-bored? sex
-sort of like them? sex
-bad day at work? sex
-so and so thinks they are good looking? sex

To me, it not only devalues intimacy, it also takes much of the fun out of it all.

No need to even try so to speak, the chase imo, is a part of the fun of the process, it's not even seduction it's more like a more personal form of a hug.

posted April 09, 2013 12:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Maybe i'm too old school but i actually want to get married someday and i dont want to get married to a girl who has been with every guy in town, i'm sorry but that just doesnt appeal to me. Also I dont see why any girl would want to get married to a guy who has been with every girl in town. I have been soo disillusioned by the whole thing that I have considered moving to a european country and buying prostitutes to satisfy my urges because i dont see any difference between that and what is going on in the world today. its basically like "you're hot! lets screw... "ok".

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Ah but AG, the real question is does it bother you when it happens, or is it they are not saying "yes" to you?

One of the downsides to "hook up culture" is it creates clear lines (so to speak).

posted April 09, 2013 12:59 AM            

Hmm, then AG, why does it bother you at all though?

For myself I just sort of laugh at it all, from what I've witnessed this is more or less a sort of form of validation for those engaging in it.

posted April 09, 2013 03:02 AM            

That said, including a little kissing as hooking up like intercourse? Are you kidding me? I'm tempted to dismiss this as invalid right there, but I'll keep going since you asked (we air signs do like to play with ideas after all). So, moving on to some more specifics...

quote:

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Students say a lot of this sex "just happens." There's not a lot of agency. Why is there such a disconnect between students' intensions and actions?
That's the million-dollar question. It's really problematic when people don't see their participation of their own volition. There's a lot of complicated territory when people say, "I don't know how it happened." Some of it has to do with the social contract piece. You teach yourself not to care. You're disassociating yourself from the experience and feelings you might have and the person you're with. Students think, "I want to be with someone, but I have no alternative. And in order to this, I'm going to drink a lot of alcohol." So it's kind of a self-medicating thing. The alcohol helps students disassociate from the experience. I often say hookup culture is a culture of pretend. A lot of men and women are performing for each other, even though many don't want to engage in the performance. They'll say, "I woke up one day and was like 'who was I last night?' I don't see myself as someone who would do this."

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This doesn't strike me as anything new, and all too many people of all ages report the same thing and probably always have. Sometimes it "just happens" and people get "caught in the moment" (especially when there's a lot of alcohol or other intoxicants involved). Also, clubbing and the like is also a lot of pretend, it's basically a bunch of mutual head games and pretending to be someone other than you (with better ways to sell yourself than are true) to seduce each other, which I believe is a strong contributor to why divorce is so common, because people didn't know who they married as one or both kept their actual selves hidden until after the honeymoon when they could "relax and stop pretending" (and/or "trying so hard").

There's also the belief that men and women can't just be friends by some people, they believe that if a man and woman were to spend significant time together that they will ultimately have sex. I was warned about this when I was younger and told to hang around rich guys while avoiding others because it would eventually happen that I could lure a rich guy into marriage (whereas if I hung around "less worthy" men that I'd end up with one of them instead). It's all based on the belief that men and women are driven to hook up, even when they know it's wrong, often even if they're already with someone else. I don't subscribe to this belief myself, but I do know it happens often enough to understand why others do believe it.

And because of that I'm less than impressed by her assertions.

quote:

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On a small, rural campus, everybody knows everybody else, there are no parents around, there's nowhere else to go, and there's this sense that there's nothing else to do but drink and hook up

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Yes and no. Not having parents around does widen the possibilities and makes a lot of people more bold about experimenting, including hookups. OTOH, most behavior is actually controlled by peers...which they say right there...and while guys are generally encouraged to hook up without emotional commitment women are not and **** shaming remains alive and well, especially in small towns. Of course some women get marginalized, some are disturbed, others are independent enough not to care, and others still hate other women enough to not care what other females say, so not all females will be discouraged by this peer pressure, but it exists,including among the college aged.

Just look at Kristen Stewart, aka "the Trampire," when the family man she cheated with got almost no blame whatsoever despite that he was older, married, and with children, so he had less excuse than her and betrayed more people more deeply, but it's all the woman's fault according to the men & women (including many college women) which shows me (along with similar examples) that **** shaming is alive and well and therefore the women described in this article don't describe the majority as that doesn't fit with them saying they're obligated while shaming a star for doing what they're supposedly driving each other to do (especially if so crass as to brag of sleeping with 40 guys in 3 years, definitely the exception to the rule, at least would be in most places). And whenever there's cheating it's almost always the female who gets blamed by both genders (the only exceptions I can think of offhand was purely political ones of convenience to blame the politician).

And generally speaking, once a girl gets a reputation, which may be undeserved by the way (I got called a **** for walking home with 2 guys once and then guys kept coming after me and after I turned them down they lied about having "scored" with me, for example), then she's typically barred from girl world. And then the only place she can get attention is with guys, but of course to keep that attention she's generally got to be a **** , or close enough that guys realize there's a real chance (not always, I wasn't forced into that, though partially because I didn't require as much peer approval as others). It may be degrading, but at least she has SOMEONE to relate to.

quote:

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To be a guy in college is to hide. There are exceptions, but I think guys are better at hiding than girls are. Girls are allowed to express themselves emotionally. They're allowed to say, "I'm hurting." Guys are never allowed to say, "I'm hurting."

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Yes and no. Guys aren't suppose to admit to any feeling other than humor or anger (and lust) but it's so much easier to ignore girls who tend to turn their anger inward and write poetry about hating and hurting herself (and generally showing in your face anger is disapproved of for females, even adopting a cause is frowned upon in high school, though serving a cause is ok as long as she serves and doesn't lead) while guys are much more likely to vent publicly which thus gets more attention, though for better and for worse. Guys get attention they need, but also attention that makes things worse and schools also put in almost useless things like metal detectors because of what a few boys do which raises fears over male violence which grows into fears of male anger & aggression and thus they can be singled out and punished for just expressing anger (which can ironically push them over the edge turning them into threats that they weren't before).

IOW, both genders have to hide, but they hide differently.

(Though I recall with some amusement about a girl fight in high school that was arranged completely through intermediaries without the girls ever even looking at each other before they met for an actual fist or cat fight, though I wasn't there and can't recall if the fight actually went down or not. Girl fighting is usually even more sneaky and passive aggressive than that, though it can be even more devastating than what guys tend to pull since the more popular girls tend to command a lot more social pressure over boys & girls both while also holding grudges much longer while guys tend to vent them and then are expected to get over it, and not have others do their fighting for them the way girls do.)

quote:

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I heard lots of young men who were gay complaining about the hookup culture. It wasn't different if you were gay or lesbian or bisexual.

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I am reminded of many gay men who have very similar complaints as straight women about players they meet, especially in bars and on dating sites.

In a way it comes with male upbringing, "as the twig is bent..." Boys (and young men in the military and college, etc) are encouraged to "be a man" and that means not being too sensitive and not being "whipped" by a girl (easily translatable to "guy") and mixed with the celebration of sexual expression it encourages them to be jerks (and worse), and to enjoy labels as "stud" and "player," and if they care too much about a relationship (other than being "respected" and being in control) then they cross into "Mr. sensitivity," are "whipped" (guys even make whip cracking sounds to their friends when he shows concern for her feelings or otherwise that he's not in complete control), and sometimes (especially if violating the Boy Code in other ways like not caring about sports) seen as "effeminate." In addition, the heroes in movies guys like to watch (such as James Bond) always ends up with a hot girl (typically younger, and always stunning) but typically shies away from actual love & commitment other than how she wants him and how he pleases her, and that encourages a sense of entitlement for someone "hot" while also telling him he doesn't have to be equally hot himself, just "in control" (which matches the Boy Code).

(In the hopes of preventing offense I'll add that I know how females are raised is just as messed up in its own way.)

In short they're trained to both pursue sex while not care about relationships, be they 15, 25, or 50. Of course many do care (one reason why some jerks get tolerated is because they show a secret side to those they date, though this might just be a head game in which he uses to play someone of course), and many outgrow the Boy Code (some by high school, others long after college), but many don't.

Many of them get a rep as a player (or at least will bring down the wrath of other women on the woman that has anything to do with him) that women start avoiding him, or are limited by married life, so they go to the dating sites looking for more booty from people who don't know them yet, and who are preferably young so s/he's more likely to be hot and easily controlled and/or dismissed (or at least appear so to his friends) and it's apparently a problem for both straight women and gay men using dating sites trying to find a real relationship. They're players, and as players they'll misrepresent themselves and play head games to get what he wants and careless of how it hurts others which frustrates so many trying to use dating sites for REAL relationships.

And this would also be a problem for guys and gals in college as both straight and gay men looking to play the field are looking for primarily for people college age, and many of them lie about wanting a relationship when all they want to do is hook up, use you, and forget you. For that reason I can see why dating sites wouldn't be a solution if enough college folk were really that upset by this. Whatever the case is with women, hook up culture is something many men of all ages practice, including married men (sometimes even with the approval of his wife who doesn't want to be the one to see to his sexual needs). Too bad there's so much deceit and head games rather than dealing openly and honestly with each other (heck, "hook up culture" might even be preferable in comparison to what I see as the norm, because at least it's honest).

Obviously I'm speaking in general terms.

quote:

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One of my most interesting conversations was with a lesbian who said that within hookup culture, everybody assumes that there's going to be girl-on-girl action. So many women are pseudo-lesbians in college. If you are a lesbian, not just once but for life, no one really believes you—you have to prove yourself. You never know if the partner you're with is just having her crazy fling to show everybody that she's so cool and she can do this. There's distrust. If you wanted to have sex with someone you love, it's tough, because to prove you're a lesbian you need to hook up with a lot of other women. That was one of the most jarring differences I heard about hookup culture—how it affected her sense of identity, her sex life, and changed the stakes for her.

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As for the lesbians, I hadn't heard of that and I'm not going to believe that without some confirmation. It's true that there are women who pretend to be lesbian or bi to attract guys (and also women who pretend to be lesbian to try to get guys to leave her alone) and these are the women straight men seduce since a REAL lesbian is NOT going to be seduced by a guy under all but the most extraordinary circumstances just as a straight guy isn't going to be seduced by a gay man (though I'm not counting pity or self-aggrandizement which sometimes motivate lesbians to have sex with men). But the point of this is to affect male behavior, not "prove themselves." They're not really into women and will only show intimacy if she's using it as a ploy to get a man to want her more (which generally means only while he's watching or can otherwise hear about it) which angers lesbians who feel used, and such women are dubbed "flesbians" for "fake lesbians." Flesbians do tend to be college-aged, however.

posted April 09, 2013 03:20 AM            

Short & sweet, it says the prevalence of porn is making it near impossible for men to have sex. In an extreme case (not going to track it down again) they were saying high school boys are unable to have sex because they could only get excited by porn. I personally don't believe it because I've been harassed by too many men who obviously believed porn stereotypes and hoping to recreate it (granted, maybe if I'd gone along with it I could've gotten a "never happened to me before" moment ).

And just WHERE did they find teenage boys willing to admit this? Assuming the data was honestly (though I'm sure sloppily) gathered then I doubt the boys even knew what they were answering, they were probably filling out some multiple choice randomly or being silly about it. Even if ED was so prevalent they'd still be lying about how much they're getting, at least if they're like the school boys I've known (and I've heard they're pretty much like that everywhere).

However, I could see that men look at porn when they're ready for sex whereas they may feel obligated or pressured to have sex at times they're not ready and/or with partners whom they're not entirely happy with at the moment or would feel judged by if they offered their true desires and thus FOR THAT REASON find it easier to "respond" to porn.

posted April 09, 2013 03:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
In the last days, people will call good evil and evil good. Urrggg xxx

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All in all promiscuity doesn't bother me if done with some sense and responsibility...and no head games (like Cosmopolitan magazine for women promotes). That's true of the guys as well, I don't care as long as they're honest and ethical, but when they're "players" and pretending to be interested in a real relationship when all they want is a cheap hookup then I look down on them, but it's for the dishonesty, not the promiscuity. 'Course I sometimes want to slap the women (and even a few gay men who fall for it) that fall for his BS just because they really, REALLY want to believe it's true and so fall for it despite they'd find it pathetic should anyone else fall for the same thing in a guy she's not interested in...

That aside there's actually far worse in the world. Actually, sexual shaming inflicts a lot of depression and even suicide, how's that for evil? Depression and other social ills rose significantly in states right after passing anti-gay marriage amendments (including in states that allow first cousins to marry & breed), and I'm sure such harm is called "good" too. Of course there's much worse than that even in the modern world.

And then there was open slavery, plus the horrid inquisitions, and much worse than today which makes me think if God can't be bothered to step in over that then he's not going to care about promiscuity (even the dishonest, Jerry Springer kind) either. I'm sure even the genocide, mass rapes, and cannibalism (which was often called "good" by those doing them) in the 20th century would be far more evil than this, but then I don't get my morals from the Bible so I guess I have no morals, otherwise I'd know being a **** is far more evil than genocide, slavery, and the most brutal tortures conducted on a mass scale for religious as well as political reasons.

Come to think of it, I vaguely recall that a few years ago CA 9th circuit okayed a San Diego law forcing porn stores to shut down in the wee hours. The reason? Because they felt the law prevented people from being lewd outside of porn shops which diverted police attention when it was most needed. So I guess even the courts agree, even wanking in the alley of a porn shop is more deserving of police action than burglary, rape, robbery, murder going on, or even vandalism. I suppose the only thing that might be worse is smoking pot (but not drunk driving). Come to think of it, the changes in the Higher Education Act passed by Congress in 1998 pretty much bars people convicted of smoking pot from getting college aid such as Pell grants, but murderers, serial rapists, those lewd in public, and even child molesters are still eligible.

Yep, in light of what society believes I need to reconsider. Promiscuity really is the worst thing you can do (save pot)!

posted April 09, 2013 04:18 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
its just not a good thing,period.I see men and women alike get hurt in the process when feelings get involved. heck, my best friend got gonorhhea (i probably butchered the spelling) when he lost his virginity.And as a guy with old fashioned values it is very disheartening to see soo many girls who supposedly "arent like that " hook up left and right. but thats just my opinion.

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Yep
Never be afraid to stand alone on your faith or your morals. It takes true courage to go against the tide. Anyone can swim with it. That is easy!

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted August 02, 2013 07:46 PM            

quote:

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For A., college is an endless series of competitions: to get into student clubs, some of which demand multiple rounds of interviews; to be selected for special research projects and the choicest internships; and, in the end, to land the most elite job offers.

As A. explained her schedule, “If I’m sober, I’m working.”

In such an overburdened college life, she said, it was rare for her and her friends to find a relationship worth investing time in, and many people avoided commitment because they assumed that someone better would always come along.

“We are very aware of cost-benefit issues and trading up and trading down, so no one wants to be too tied to someone that, you know, may not be the person they want to be with in a couple of months,” she said.

Instead, she enjoyed casual sex on her terms — often late at night, after a few drinks, and never at her place, she noted, because then she would have to wash the sheets.

Nationally, women now outnumber men in college enrollment by 4 to 3 and outperform them in graduation rates and advanced degrees. Some researchers have argued that the gender imbalance fosters a culture of hooking up because men, as the minority, hold more power in the sexual marketplace, and they prefer casual sex to long-term relationships.

But Elizabeth A. Armstrong, a sociologist at the University of Michigan who studies young women’s sexuality, said that women at elite universities were choosing hookups because they saw relationships as too demanding and potentially too distracting from their goals.

In interviews, “Some of them actually said things like, ‘A relationship is like taking a four-credit class,’ or ‘I could get in a relationship, or I could finish my film,’ ” Dr. Armstrong said.

Increasingly, she said, many privileged young people see college as a unique life stage in which they don’t — and shouldn’t — have obligations other than their own self-development.

Women say, “ ‘I need to take this time for myself — I’m going to have plenty of time to focus on my husband and kids later,’ ” Dr. Armstrong said. “ ‘I need to invest in my career, I need to learn how to be independent, I need to travel.’ People use this reference to this life stage to claim a lot of space for a lot of different kinds of things.”

Some women also want to wait to see how men turn out as they advance through their 20s.

A., for example, said that she did not want to settle down until she could choose a partner knowing that his goals and values were fixed.

“‘I’ve always heard this phrase, ‘Oh, marriage is great, or relationships are great — you get to go on this journey of change together,’ ” she said. “That sounds terrible.

“I don’t want to go through those changes with you. I want you to have changed and become enough of your own person so that when you meet me, we can have a stable life and be very happy.”

In the meantime, from A.’s perspective, she was in charge of her own sexuality.

“I definitely wouldn’t say I’ve regretted any of my one-night stands,” she said.

“I’m a true feminist,” she added. “I’m a strong woman. I know what I want.”

At the same time, she didn’t want the number of people she had slept with printed, and she said it was important to her to keep her sexual life separate from her image as a leader at Penn.

“Ten years from now, no one will remember — I will not remember — who I have slept with,” A. said. “But I will remember, like, my transcript, because it’s still there. I will remember what I did. I will remember my accomplishments and places my name is hung on campus.”

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That said, this guy challenges the stereotypes of hook-up culture:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/02/opinion/yellin-penn-men/index.html

quote:

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Last month, the New York Times published an article in its Sunday Styles section with the headline "Sex on Campus: She Can Play That Game, Too." It focused on what it called the casual hookup culture at my school, the University of Pennsylvania, where I am a junior. It found that many students see relationships from a purely economic standpoint, subjecting partners to a cost-benefit analysis that ultimately puts sex above romance.

The piece sparked a furious response from students and alumni over its depiction of Penn women, including articles in Cosmopolitan, the Huffington Post and the Daily Pennsylvanian, our student paper.

They criticized the article's sweeping generalizations about young women's sexuality and its blasé conclusions about the men on campus.

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quote:

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There are men who speak out against violence; there are men who want monogamous relationships; there are men in fraternities who walk girls back to their dorms and make sure that they are OK, never even thinking of taking advantage of the situation.

The default answer is not yes, because there is a host of college students who admire the women with whom they go to school and refuse to blame sexual violence on alcohol. These women are future world leaders and innovators who might not feel like they have time for a relationship at this stage of their lives, and we respect them even more for making that decision.

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posted August 02, 2013 09:47 PM            

My theory is women's financial independence from men has deepened this prevalence. The whole reason society was invested in romantic outcomes in the first place was because women had less opportunities 30, 40 years ago. However, as of 2011 the male to female pay gap in the U.S. narrowed. Women are also outranking men in earning college degrees. They HAVE opportunities now on their own, without help. Still working out a few kinks but it's a lot better than it used to be.

To give you the big picture, female sexuality has always been more fluid than male sexuality, and because they're not so dependent on marrying someone anymore, male sexuality and female sexuality are egalitarian. Now, this is NOT to exclude the double-edge sword that comes with female sexuality either, but it's in agreement with hook-ups definitely being easier and more common than standard relationships.