posted May 27, 2013 05:42 PM            

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There is such a rush to be a good human being, to set law and order to a chaotic existence...

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posted May 27, 2013 10:25 PM            

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juniperb: Good question but will you expand on that? I`m not certain what you mean by rush to be good.

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The rush to be good, I mean, is like...I dunno, Christianity for example, teaches about sin. This person I know shared an article on how society programs us to strive for such and such when we should really strive to be a decent human being.

posted May 27, 2013 11:13 PM            

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Originally posted by somethingexcellent:
This person I know shared an article on how society programs us to strive for such and such when we should really strive to be a decent human being

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Can you share the article? I need some context for your question.

posted May 28, 2013 02:03 AM            

Okay I cheat the system (Like reusing train tickets, cheating on exams, etc)
I manipulate/lie to people to get my way, like my instructors, bosses, and parents.

posted May 28, 2013 03:01 AM            

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Kerosene: how are you amoral?
Examples?

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posted May 28, 2013 05:56 PM            

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Originally posted by Kerosene:
I think most people do that haha!

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posted May 28, 2013 07:00 PM            

Ethics are usually shared principles of the same "tone" of some morals between a smaller or larger group of people.

Ethics can more often be agreed with by the majority of humanity, but personal morals aren't often fully agreed upon by many or most.

Like, for me, I find it unethical to test chemicals/products on animals, or to de-beak chickens, keeping dogs chained up in below freezing/sweltering temperatures (exposed to the elements), or finding it unethical to clone humans, force children to do the work of adults, to deprive others of their freedom... etc~

But, my personal moral code isn't so strict, and I find myself always thinking over and over in my mind, "something is neither good or bad," because to me, the definition I'd use to describe an attitude or behavior or event would to someone else be the complete opposite, right? What matters is how we view things on an individual level. I do think, "how will this effect x down the road" so there is a sense of maybe not karma but consequence that will deter me from going too far in either direction. Sometimes the lines blur, for one thing... many moral and ethical people find the death sentence/execution outrageously unethical. I don't agree. Terrible as taking a life of another is, and as awful it is to punish that crime by doing the exact same thing to the one who'd committed it is, I stand by my own morals here, and not so much ethical reasoning, I think... I look at it from a perspective of human psychology and natural animal behavior. The only time an animal turns on its own brethren, is when they are threatened with starvation or insanity, or there is a territorial dispute/invasion. (Territorial ---- Unless we consider theft or war, which is another issue entirely, I won't touch on those here.) Insanity can be seen as a handicap, but starvation is seldom the case in our era for homicide. So my philosophy and morals would be rather set here against the morals of some, and the ethics of many. ~something like that~ ^^;

Um... that's not too vague is it? (I don't wanna be vague, but yeah, no... I don't do the whole "let's debate and question everyone's every statement (just to argue the other angle)" thing... I'd rather take their opinions in and respect them without tearing them apart.) ^^; *Jupiterean* eh

Either way, I don't find my morals all too restricting, and I'm not really the repenting every little deviation I have from the more restricting morals held by others type of person either. There's no urgency on my part to live up to another's virtues & values, I set my own... if, in the end, whenever it comes, it turns out I have dug my own grave... I'm prepared to lie in it. lol ^^;

posted May 28, 2013 09:23 PM            

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Originally posted by somethingexcellent:
I dunno where it issss and I didn't even read it, his summary was enough for me to feel like it was bland and unappealing. In contrast to your lovely Libra/Sagittarius mix, I am supah Scorpio, so not everything is lucid and computed, but felt and simply, vaguely understood.

(Hence the simple and open-ended what you feel concerning morality, ethics, and the imposition to be "good")

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Thanks for that explanation.

I'll add more later (not sure how much), but for now I thought I'd share from a Kim Possible fanfic of mine, and I'm surprised how many loved the discussions of good and evil, laws and ethics, I put into it in exploring the characters (KP is very much about helping people and upholding laws, and she struggles when she sees the the government as "ferociously unethical" as she put it in one ep when she found out she was supposed to get back a mind control device the government was developing while Shego is a villain with her own code, and also a fully credentialed teacher who began to tutor bad guys to great effect when she became a villain and it's a running gag how she torments her boss Dr. D/Drakken, a few examples being found here). Even a school teacher who loathes Disney (including this show) said she loved my fic because of the philosophy expressed in it (among other things). So with that I'll link to it in case you want to read it and quote some of the more popular parts:
http://m.fanfiction.net/s/4180791/1/

From Ch 7:

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"They're not evil. But they're not good either." She shrugged. "No one outside their orders even knows what their moral code is, because they keep it in the shadows too much. Even when someone claims to know, might even really believe they know, it could just be more smoke, mirrors and window dressing to hide their true aims."

"Really?" asked Kim skeptically.

"Really, Princess. You know the first ninjas came from religious exiles in China that had fled to Japan to escape persecution. But the samurai wouldn't tolerate them either. They were foreign barbarians at best, spies at worst. And their code was more individualistic, not like the stolid, glory-seeking samurai." She grinned at Kim, adding, "If you were alive back then, Kimmie, the samurai would have you trying to flush them out. The ninjas be your enemies, not your allies. 'Course, they'd slip someone in to manipulate your support staff or even replace them, and you'd trust them implicitly, and they'd then use you to THEIR advantage while you thought you were fighting against them. Either that, or if they couldn't use you, they'd eliminate you. You probably wouldn't even know it until the person you thought was your best friend stuck a blade into you. Assuming they didn't just slowly poison you, causing you to make mistakes that cost you your life if it didn't kill you outright. Or they'd frame you and let you and their other enemies kill each other, a win-win sitch for everyone. Everyone being them."

Kim turned away and glared out over the ocean, forgetting the moon reflecting over the waters. "Like you'd know."

"I've had a little training in their arts myself, by a clanless Kunoichi, but just enough to know not to trust anything I hear about them. They're the masters of keeping you guessing or making you think you know so that it doesn't occur to the casual thinker to look any closer at them. They see themselves and their enemies as part of an inseparable whole, and they'll use their enemies and betray their friends if it's according to their inscrutable code of honor, an awareness without judgment, affected by individual jonin of the various clans."

"Not everyone is as bad as you."

"Didn't say they were. But ninjas aren't like you, either. They're somewhere in between. They try to purify themselves so that thought becomes word that becomes deed, and they strive to put practicality over morality. It's how they survived, along with testing themselves to perfection against adversity in many skills, not just martial ones. Rooted in shugendo, the way of nature, they progressed in skill attempting the same balance of good and evil, of day and night, of kindness and cruelty, as nature itself, in order to reach perfection within. The way of nature, including the good and the bad, the love and the hate, flowed in all their training, too: water taught them how to flow around their enemies, letting their enemies waste their energy on trying to find and crush them, and to crush their enemies like a tidal wave when they couldn't. To be as invisible but ever present as air, and as deadly as a hurricane when it suited them to do so. It's all expressed in their kuji-kiri, in a very odd way. They called testing themselves against their adversaries 'shugyo,' and like us, didn't shy away from problems, seeing them as opportunities."

Kim blinked to hear Shego talk about religion and philosophy so casually, and recalled that she was a fully credentialed teacher. "Am I to understand you have ninja sensibilities?"

"What?" Shego laughed then added, still laughing, "Oh, no. Not at all." Calming down, she asked, "Do you really want to know my philosophy?" When Kim nodded cautiously, she said, "Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken."

After a moment, Kim raised a brow. "What kind of messed up philosophy is that?"

"You don't recognize it?"

"Should I?"

"Slightly adapted from the code of the Sith. Ask Wade about it, if you ever can."

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"I don't consider my life irrelevant," replied Kim. "I live it, I enjoy it, and I fight the good fight. I know why I fight, but why do you?"

"How much time do you have to enjoy it? You're constantly saving the world for others. But what's in it for them? Don't you see, the people at the top who preserve the order, the order in which they are at the top and make it extremely unlikely for anyone to change that, are also villains. They just get the schools to teach their version of history, to follow orders, not question the answers that they accept, spit back out, and forget. You think you're fighting villainy, Princess, but the people at the top are pirates who rob the poor under the cover of law, while people like Drakken and me plunder those who rob society through their order...and suckers like you fight to defend those villains from us."

Kim shook her head, amazed at such a sentiment. "I'm not sure what you mean, Shego. Are you saying you're like Robin Hood? Because I can say you most definitely are not, you're more of a robbing hood."

"Pirates and Emperors, Kimmie, the only difference is how many people they command. Do you even know how the current order was born?"

Skeptically, not sure she wanted to hear the answer, she said grimly, "Enlighten me."

"The order was born of pirates and warlords, the most successful ones founding dynasties before becoming inbred. They claim to lead, but they only offer stability because it's in the best interest of their business and political interests, and they'll crush crusading and rebellious do-gooders as much as people like me. Civilization was born by the strong eliminating the weak, the competent beating the incompetent, and the clever outsmarting the stupid. Then a bunch of people decided that these very values that gave birth to our society should be replaced with the philosophy that the weak should inherit the world, the justice reign instead of strength, and that the weak be protected by the strong."

Kim blinked at this uncertainly. "And this is bad because?"

"Because it's not how the world works, it never was, and it never will be. And it's the opposite of the values that GAVE us civilization in the first place.

"Again, look at history: exploration is caused by people wanting new resources and new markets to exploit and don't care who they have to rob to get those resources, and nations fight to increase the economic dominance of their ruling elites, and wars are fought to protect current holdings and to seize new ones. And then those that lead can't lead because everyone is too afraid to tell them the truth for fear of losing their jobs or even their property, freedom and their very lives. Those with families to think of are especially worried. So they tell the leaders whatever the leaders want to hear, which means leaders make decisions based on misinformation, not at all grounded in reality. And for good reason: those who kiss ass are promoted, while those who don't learn to play the game are kept down if not gotten rid of. It ends in a wishy washy world disconnected from reality and where the weak & pathetic can leech off the strong & deserving and people like us are leashed & trained sheepdogs like you or feared wolves like me."

Frowning, Kim muttered, "I'm so glad I didn't have you for social studies."

Shego continued as if Kim hadn't spoken. "Oh, and get this! Those who kiss ass AND prove themselves capable are promoted until they stop being efficient, and then they aren't raised anymore, so that people are not only giving their bosses and leaders information divorced from reality, but they are then raised to their level of incompetence. But you can't point this out because that's saying the leaders made a mistake, and they don't want to hear that. So everyone plays the game, tries to minimize the inevitable damage, find acceptable scapegoats which will be those willing to report the facts when available, and then go home and medicate against their world, and the world at large, that's going to hell in a hand basket."

Kim shook her head. "I think you're just trying to make yourself feel better by saying those who set up Global Justice are misguided, or at least no worse than you."

"Size matters, Princess. When only a few act this way, like Drakken and his henchmen, it's villainy over which people tear their garments, but when MANY act this way because the villains at the top ordered it, it's glorious and they hold parades over it. When someone shoots someone over their gang colors, they're seen as murderers, but when someone shoots someone over their nation's colors, they're seen as heroes, with holidays and statues dedicated to them. People are taught that if they, as individuals, steal or kill on their own initiative, they're evil, but if they REFUSE to help the powers that be to steal and kill, then they're cowards and unpatriotic. The message is self-sacrifice, you do not exist for yourself, you exist to serve those in power, and they should roll over like a pathetic dog when kicked because the leg breakers are 'just doing their job.' People pay protection money to the racket, and even choose to become racketeers themselves because they'll be hailed as long as they're on the winning side. All the while, the gifted, the innovators, the courageous are shackled, unless their talents can be put to use for the powers that be. That is, the SUCCESSFUL villains."

"So maybe I should change sides," said Kim sarcastically, "just join with you and Drakken."

Shego shrugged. "Should Dr. D ever take over the world, it won't be any different beyond the cosmetic changes. Many revolutions that take place all the time are more violent and disruptive. Besides, Dr. D just wants people to recognize him as a genius. He doesn't really care about taking over the world except that it will prove to everyone else that he's the smartest man in the world, and that those who rejected him were wrong to do so."

"You mean," asked Kim incredulously, "that if like my dad were to tell Drakken that he was sorry for laughing at him, Drakken might give up his plans for global domination?"

Shego laughed a little. "Possible, Possible. But you know how ingrained habits can be. He'd need new habits to replace the old ones." She shrugged. "It's not about choosing a side with me, I'm not into any idiotology." Shego intentionally mispronounced "ideology" as "eh-dee-otology." "And I have fun. People think I should constantly give myself up for them? No way, Princess. I live for me. That's what my clothes mean. Green and black, like my skin and hair. It's my personal flag for the nation of me."

"More like your freak flag," replied Kim.

Shego smiled slightly and continued. "I refuse to play your game and I play my own instead, because it's better, it's truer, and it's in my own best interests. I am all that I need, and I have all the strength I need. And if I want to enjoy a chocolate sundae, have some fun with guys or even girls, or indulge my vanity, so be it. At least my life isn't meaningless to ME, I'm living it FOR me, not for someone less worthy, not even Drakken. And since we're all born alone, and die alone, 'me' is all that matters anyway. The meaning I give it is all that matters."

"Shego," said Kim, "you were born to your mother. You're raised with your family. You have brothers who love you. We have funerals because we feel a little of ourselves die when others die. Even you, Shego."

"What?" asked Shego confused.

"When you die, a part of me will die with you." When she saw Shego looking at her in amazement, she continued. "I...I guess it's like what you were saying about testing yourself, and making yourself better in the process. I say it's my cheerleading skills that help me to fight you, but it's more the other way around. Especially you. You've constantly been my archfoe. And every time I go more than a month without fighting you, I feel myself going into withdrawal." Then she quickly added, "I mean that in a good way!"

Shego laughed. "Adrenaline junkie, eh? No harm, no foul. I guess we can understand each other that much." They stood silently, gazing out at the moon over the ocean, for a minute before Shego said, "You know what I was about to tell you, back when I was Ms. Goody Two Shoes?"

"What?" asked Kim. She'd always been curious about that.

"I was going to say, you gave my life meaning. Without you, I think I'd have gone crazy and gone out in a blaze of glory. 'Meteor Swarm Shego' would've been the eulogy I'd hope for, with people saying my name in whispers for long after I was dead. I didn't care about Dr. D's stupid schemes, about robbing the banks, or confronting all the security, goons, and law boys anymore. Been there, done that. It stopped being challenging. And then you come along, and again I was challenged. I despised you at first, as you seemed to be who I used to be, only popular instead of being made fun of. But as I clashed with you over and over again, I came to respect you, and then become excited when I knew we'd fight." She looked to Kim and saw her own reflection dimly in her eyes. "You remember when you lost your memory? Wait, I know how funny that sounds, but when you even forgot your own name?"

Kim nodded. "I wondered why you didn't smash me hard when you had the chance."

"Because the world without you would be boring. I knew it then and after robbing several banks, I realized just how stupid it all was. It just wasn't fun anymore. I wanted my Kimmie back, that element of danger, my worthy nemesis. I have to fight you, to defeat you while you're at your strongest, or what do I have left to strive for?"

Kim blinked. "So you're saying there'd be nothing left to rebel against and it would leave you empty."

"So banal," agreed Shego.

"Have you thought of trying to fill that emptiness by connecting with others?"

Shego smiled wickedly. "I think I connect with you pretty well, Kimmie, especially my fist to your face."

Kim frowned and narrowed her eyes as she replied, "I mean in helping others, especially those who can't stand up for themselves as well as you can."

Shego shook her head. "Have you heard nothing of what I said? Why should I serve a bunch of losers? They don't deserve it and they won't even be grateful for it. They're like children never satisfied and wanting someone else to take care of them, and then take the credit for the strength you give them, the sacrifices you make for them. Maybe you don't mind if those losers suck at your **** , but they better stay the hell away from mine."

Kim blushed. "Ok, I won't go there again."

"Glad to hear it, Princess. Just remember, I was a hero like you once, until I got tired of being taken for granted, giving my all and everyone wanting more. But they don't take advantage of me anymore. They respect me now."

"Fear isn't the same as respect, Shego."

"Neither is the praise you get, Princess. Have you thought about how often you're not only asked to help, but expected to drop everything you're doing to help, no matter how trivial their own problem is? If you're a good girl you get the praise, and if you don't help or fail at trying they show awful disappointment in you."

---

To my shock, a reviewer there said the above was brilliant justification for an anarchist society. I suppose it must be given that I didn't intend it to be (and don't see it as one, I have a little of Kimmie and a little of Shego in me, and a lot more, in terms of how I see the world).

From Chapter 10:

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Slightly uncomfortable, Kim decided to change the subject. "So how did you come to have ties to a hospital in India? Do you secretly do charity for them?" She said the last teasingly, but hoped there might be some truth to it.

Shego rolled her eyes. "Hardly, Princess. Dr. Chemmal was born someone else in Sri Lanka. There, his family was tied to the Tamil Tigers, until I got him set up here as someone else to keep him out of prison or killed by his associates."

"So not the drama," replied Kim dryly. "So what are the Tamil Tigers anyway? Some crime gang?"

Shego snorted. "They don't teach you much in that school other than how to take orders, do they?" When Kim just blinked, she said, "They're a militant secessionist group in Sri Lanka, called patriots by some and terrorists by others. Chemmal helped them by providing forged birth certificates and the like from the hospital he worked at to help wanted criminals set up under new names, or to aid criminals in obtaining passports or even smuggling Tamils to other communities around the world. He also helped a little with the drug smuggling by making some drug shipments look like legal medical supplies."

"Charming," sighed Kim. "So how did you come to be friends with him?"

"Oh, that," said Shego waving it off. "A Tamil pirate captain that smuggled drugs on the side got shot up in a firefight with cops in Bangkok though he did get away. The Tigers practically dragged the good doctor to Bangkok to render aid to the badly wounded captain. I was with the River Dragon Triad as a representative of Dr. D…"

"Dr. D is into drug smuggling?" interrupted Kim.

Shego blinked. "Well, yeah, how do you think he funds lairs and take-over- the-world schemes? Or to pay for the jet and the fuel that I flew you here with? He doesn't have a populace of sheep he can tax for it. But it's a side interest. I bet if Dr. D ever did take over the world, he'd keep the drugs illegal just so he could continue to profit from the drug trade, just like Texas Congresscritter John Morris Sheppard fought hard to enact and keep Prohibition while selling moonshine on the side, but other than that I don't think he cares that much." When Kim frowned, she laughed and added, "Hey, Al Capone never would've been more than a pathetic pimp that no one remembered today except that Prohibition changed his destiny and made him exceedingly wealthy and legendary. I bet you didn't learn THAT in school, either, or how he was never taken down for illegal drug smuggling, but for tax evasion." Shego snorted then. "I always thought it was funny that a racketeer would get busted for tax evasion." She shrugged, "But you know the difference between pirates and emperors: the number of followers. What is called a crime on a small scale is called a public service when done at a large scale."

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Chapter 12:

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"Kim Possible, Shego," shouted Dash, the sound of vocal cords infected with nanites ringing clearly in their ears, "You are ordered to desist and stand trial for 4 counts of breaking and entering and criminal trespass, 8 counts of kidnapping, one count of kidnapping a federal agent, one count of assaulting a federal agent, several counts of homicide, including the murder of one federal agent, Will Du. The building is surrounded, you cannot escape. Come with us quietly, and you will be treated well. Resist, and you will be shown the same mercy as all your victims."

Shego pointedly and loudly yawned.

"Look," said Kim as she straightened to face them, "you work with Global Justice now. Global Justice is supposed to guard against threats such as invaders releasing bioweapons like the nanites they've infected GJ with. We're trying to help you. Do your damn job and help us, not them!"

Dash approached, while Crash and Burn remained standing where they were. "I understand your confusion," said Dash in a more friendly tone. "But remember when you convinced us that it was wrong to work for profit?"

"Not exactly wrong," said Kim, "except that you were trying to sabotage me from doing what I wanted to do because you felt we were cutting too much into your business."

"You made a strong case that we go work for Global Justice, and we did. It was still for profit, paid for by the tax payers, and the benefits rocked. What convinced us the most was that it was not only easier working for GJ, it was also more profitable, especially since you were cutting into our business. Burn examined the pay and benefits and determined we were actually paid more for less work working for GJ and that's the real reason we did. We were actually grateful that you and Wade made that option clear to us when we hadn't even realized it yet."

"So?" asked Kim.

"So you said we should serve the public good, like you do, because we wanted to do good, not get paid. But that's not us, and it still wasn't us after we went to work for GJ. But it IS us now."

"Now you're slaves…"

"Now we care about doing the right thing, Kim Possible, and we're asking YOU to do the right thing now."

"By robbing people of their free will," Kim replied.

Dash shook his head. "The human brain already controls us. There is no free will; it's all chemical reactions that determine what we do. Because our brains were in chaos, there was war, rebellion, crime, and a host of other social ills. But this other world, they fixed that. They still have all the free will they've ever had, but that free will is simply made so that people feel good about serving others, not about serving themselves."

Kim shook her head. "But it's wrong."

"Is it?" asked Dash. "We have intel that you and Shego both were exposed to the moodulators."

"What of it?" asked Kim.

"Did you know that several governments have bought their own moodulators to work with, as have more than one corporation? The corporations hope to study them to use in advertisement, and make their products produce extreme happiness, but the governments are looking at them in order to make the populations safe and orderly. You see, Kim Possible, given enough time, our world will also evolve all on our own. Already the work with the moodulators is approaching the technology of these nanites. In time, everyone will have nanites in them. But thanks to other worlds that are more advanced, we get the benefits of that so much sooner, so that there will be LESS war, LESS crime, and LESS suffering. It was going to happen anyway, but now it will happen sooner. Don't you see that it's you who are refusing to do the right thing?"

Shego spoke up, a hint of derision in her voice. "Let me get this straight. You're saying, that the GOVERNMENTS of the world are endeavoring to make the very same technology to use in the very same way, all at taxpayer expense, but thanks to the LAWFUL GOVERNMENT of another world, paid for by their own law abiding tax payers, our own society can be 'evolved' ahead of schedule?"

Dash frowned at Shego, but nodded. "That is correct. It's a necessity before we destroy ourselves as a species."

"There," said Shego to Kim, "they're on the side of the angels. So which side are you on? Theirs? Or your own? Will you be a hero, or a villain?"

Kim growled.

"That's an excellent question, Shego," replied Dash. "And I ask that now of both of you. Which side are you on? Order, or Disorder?"

Shego snorted. "You have to ask?"

---

Chapter 14:

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. "I've practiced on my own and it just didn't seem to come out except when it wanted to. Other than when I was evil."

"Evil?" asked Yori.

"Um, yeah. There's this device that inverts the personalities of anyone exposed to it, at least for awhile. When I was switched to evil, I had no problem using my mad monkey powers." He blinked and added, "Among other things.

Yori shrugged. "It takes time to master these abilities. And maybe you wanted to be sure Kim saw you as a friend instead of someone to compete against, something you only cared about when you are, as you say, 'good'."

"Maybe," Ron said, "or maybe I was just more prone to apply myself when evil."

Yori laughed. "You have proven yourself very devoted and reliable. And beside, good and evil are both a part of nature. There is good and evil in all things, and in all people. I have a hard time believing any device could dilute either good or evil to the point that it was all that existed. Such a person could not continue to exist as anything natural."

"I don't really get why ninjas are so beyond the good and evil thing."

Yori shrugged. "That's an oversimplification. We recognize good and evil as both having their place, and the goal is harmony and balance, and being a master of nature—the parts of it, and ourselves, that many call evil as well as the parts many call good—rather than being mastered by it. It's like technology: we strive to master technology, not be mastered by it, as has happened to the cybernetic invaders."

"Yeah, but good is good, you know? I mean do you want to live next to someone with a good heart or one with an evil heart?"

Yori nodded. "Point taken. However, there is great evil done by people with the best of intentions, such as the ones invading our world who see themselves as fighting the good fight. And evil people, in protecting their own interests, have proven quite capable of taking care of other evil people, sometimes more effectively than good people because the evil ones can better predict how evil people will act and can fight as dirty as they have to, when a good person or government would be thoroughly confused and incapable of fighting that same enemy using naïve goodwill and fair play."

Ron shook his head. "So sometimes it's good to be evil? See, that's where you lose me."

Yori shrugged. "It is how the ninja have survived. Our traditions come from religious exiles that have been persecuted throughout the centuries. And more than once, in Japan, samurai have drafted thousands to make war on the ninja. And more than once, the ninja struck directly at the samurai and their generals. The samurai, much more cowardly than they pretended to be, fled when they realized that they could not tyrannize or slaughter my people, and with them went their armies. The armies leaving meant that the conscripted peasant soldiers survived to return to their families, leaving fewer widows and orphans behind, and keeping their numbers big enough to discourage the war lords and nobility from brazenly raping and abusing the women and children. Likewise, assassins in other parts of the world have preserved their peoples from endless warfare by killing the leaders that declared the wars and blood feuds to begin with."

"Ok, that makes a little more sense," nodded Ron, though he was still obviously uncomfortable with the concept.

"And then the ninja clans have adopted many orphans. Remember, war and plague once claimed many more lives than they do today, and there were many children to be starved and abused on the streets. The ninja adopted them, saved them from misery and exploitation, which is good. They were then sent to seduce, befriend, and ultimately betray and murder the leaders of the society that the ninjas had saved them from. Is that good, or is that evil?"

Ron sighed. "Ok, now I'm confused again."

"I was found as a runaway. I was abused in ways I do not wish to share with you yet, and I ran to the streets to escape it. There I found that criminals wanted to enslave me, force me onto hard drugs in order to control me—much like these nanites, now that I think about it—and also to destroy any sympathy I might have from strangers. The government then took to fining such unfortunates, who would have to continue to be sex slaves in order to pay the fines as well as support the pimps that enslave them."

Ron was speechless. "Yori, I had no idea. I thought you were born into a ninja family. I don't know what to say…"

Yori continued as if Ron hadn't spoken. "But I evaded them and survived with cleverness, skill, and honor, and I impressed a ninja working for the Yakuza, and I began to be trained in the arts at the age of 12. However, my scruples were such that I was transferred to the Yamanouchi School. Because of these ninjas, good and evil, I was spared more family abuse, and the rape and abuse that was most likely to have happened to me on the streets, from both sides of the law."

"So they're more good than evil."

"Of course, I am trained for spying, combat, manipulation, and trickery. Not all the methods I am expected to use are as honorable as I like. Though Sensei has shown great tolerance for my scruples, I fear that when he is replaced, I will be expected to do things I am most uncomfortable with. Good people like Sensei are very rare, as they usually have no taste for authority, and they are often more vulnerable to the dirty tricks of less principled people who seek to replace them. So, were the ninja good or evil in saving me, and many others like me, from a life that would make death seem preferable?"

Ron shook his head. Finally, he said, "Yori, I can't call anyone evil that saved you from the alternative you were faced with."

Yori looked at him intently, and said, "Hana's parents are alive and don't know where Hana is."

"What?" asked Ron. "My sister?"

"Once it was known that Hana was special, a baby of prophecy, Sensei decided that she must be hidden in order to be protected. The family she was born into do not have the skills to care for her, and would be helpless to stop the evil ones who would try to corrupt Hana, steal her powers, or just kill her to make sure she could not grow to threaten them. Sensei did explain this to them and they agreed, hoping to be reunited with Hana when she is old enough to protect herself. But had they not agreed, I'd have likely been assigned to have kidnapped Hana in order to protect her, and I would've done so."

Ron sat down. "I'm used to thinking in terms of good and evil, and there are so many shades of grey. What's wrong with black and white? Why won't it work anymore?"

Yori continued with a more abstract point. "And I understand that 'free energy' is used by the invading world, and may soon become available to this world. It's a good thing that fossil fuels will no longer be able to pollute our world, that hospitals will no longer suffer power failure during disasters and the failure of power plants, and that energy can be used by anyone, not just to those who can afford to pay for it piecemeal."

"Yeah, that sounds good." His tone still showed he was uncomfortable with this, as did his hands that he held over his head.

"But what happens to all those people who work in the oil industry? They will be unemployed, and many industries that support them and their workers will also suffer greatly. Plus, some will use that energy for nefarious purposes. You yourself have stopped Drakken more than once because great uses of energy had been detected. But in a world of free energy, your Wade would not be able to detect it until it was too late."

"Ok, now that sounds bad!"

"Likewise, many oil barons in the Middle East use their money to fund terrorists, but they will dry up, and the terrorist cells they fund with them. The world will be greener and healthier with far less terrorists killing and kidnapping tourists."

"Ok, now that sounds good!"

"That is because there's good and evil in everything, Stoppable-san."

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posted May 28, 2013 10:04 PM            

Generally speaking, I prefer alternatives to prisons, prison should only be used against actual menaces to society rather than simply because someone's sensibilities were offended. Prohibition is another recipe for trouble (and given that nothing killed more people in the 20th century than government, and that's not even including wars, then if anything should be prohibited it should be government itself). However, I have come to favor "decriminalization over legalization" in some cases, like most drugs, Portugal-style, as that seems to help society best even if some people get their panties in a bunch over it (but that should be the individual's problem, not society). That means smoking pot can't be prosecuted because it doesn't hurt anyone else, but violence & theft can be.

And I'd much rather have a legal system based on restitution, which it used to be until kings changed it into an enriching racket for themselves. I read an article on that in a legal magazine that detailed how most ancient systems (before they became centralized empires) used this method (sometimes it was "eye for an eye" and other times just "fines meant to curb violence" so that as long as you could pay a fine then you could get a "license to kill" though it was high enough that it still wouldn't be done lightly). Then Empires in subjugating others took a more direct role rather than a community approach, and even once assimilated kings found it more profitable to make the restitution against "the king's peace" (and thus fines, debtor prisons, & labor camps became popular instead). Society has recently been going back to restitution, though they leave the corrupt aspects of paying off the state in place (a huge and profitable racket that sometimes makes more crime than there would otherwise be, especially when the government turns a blind eye to how convicts raise the money to pay parole & probation officers, and I knew one guy busted for stealing smokes and his parole officer was the one to bail him out so he could do the crimes to pay the state with the advice of "don't get caught").

An example of a legal system based on restitution can be found here (starts on page 67, goes on to 69):
http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn?page=67

posted May 28, 2013 10:34 PM            

quote:

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SaturnineMoth: There's no urgency on my part to live up to another's virtues & values, I set my own... if, in the end, whenever it comes, it turns out I have dug my own grave... I'm prepared to lie in it. lol ^^;

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LmaO! Basically how I feel...except I more or less set my own so as to avoid detection that, "hey, maybe this person isn't functioning 'correctly' "

quote:

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PixieJane: To my shock, a reviewer there said the above was brilliant justification for an anarchist society!

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Omfg ahaha! Well, see, I've been seeing everything as a rat race lately and the only thing I've deemed a worthwhile goal is self-satisfaction. Satisfaction of your own desires. Not the desires or obligations of society or other people or humanity or whatever else! But then, people say some desires are bad, evil, immoral, unethical, unlawful, or illegal, and so on. I believe there is no intrinsic right or wrong, good or bad, only action and consequence. And I guess that's what I was asking, how people viewed all that.

I once told my friend I'd love to stop aging and live indefinitely. She said "whoa and see all your loved ones die?" I didn't answer because I knew she wouldn't like my honest answer, that I'd be fine with that trade off.

posted May 29, 2013 05:03 AM            

I was introduced to a game that used this style (including one that went further with philosophy and how the various moral & ethical alignments affected the said philosophy) and it had an affect on how I view morals and ethics because this was the first time I really thought about them deeply.

Btw, every alignment test has scored me as Chaotic Good (though I've drifted closer to Neutral Good over the years), save one, and it was created by an admitted fanaticism of Lawful Good who couldn't see any kind of individualism or individuality as good, just as there are some extreme Chaotics--that is, freedom and individuality over the demands of society--who see Lawful Good as an oxymoron (and back in my teen years after I discovered this system I referred to "Lawful Goods" as "Lawful Deluded" myself, but I'd say that was 75% teasing ).

Are you amoral? Check the neutral alignments (going by what you've said here I'd guess you were Chaotic Neutral)...of course the evil alignments are worth checking out, too.

I personally think that about 80% of human beings are fairly neutral and/or "go with the flow" without much thought and will take the path of least resistance so they may go along with society (or at least seem to). My guess is that only about 10% are firmly aligned with good or evil respectively.

But though my getting into a game that explored these concepts in depth and what it meant to live that way and how one saw life (either from the heart or with philosophical justification) it was itself inspired by other philosophies on good & evil, society's demands and individual liberty, so I know plenty of others would go along with it. For example, nearly all religions and even many godless movements have some version of the "Golden Rule" morality and ethics (be it practical ethics or actual empathy) so that one doesn't kill because if you can kill anyone then anyone can kill you, and that's not a society anyone want to live in, so everyone (er, most...many...people) agrees not to kill, at least not without a compelling reason that most others agree on. Self-defense or defense of other and/or property is often agreed to be ok as most everyone wants the right to defend themselves, loved ones, and/or property despite that killing in general is seen as wrong, but even then, if one isn't careful then self-defense can become vigilantism, which again isn't something most people want.

Likewise, amputation is illegal, even when voluntary, but it's allowed to stop a greater evil such as gangrene (but even then the one amputating had better be in extreme circumstances and/or have a medical license to make the proper diagnosis and procedure if he doesn't want to be prosecuted).

posted May 29, 2013 05:10 AM            

quote:

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PixieJane: Are you amoral? Check the neutral alignments (going by what you've said here I'd guess you were Chaotic Neutral)

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posted May 29, 2013 05:07 PM            

Pixie Jane.... Your research capability is a World-Class level Gift! You could be an [uncorrupted ] politician's or journalist's dream team-member.

SE.... There's "beauty" in the "breakdown"? I think that when you strive to live 'by the rules' it can bring up some static inside. We all struggle with the light and dark parts of ourselves....

Bottomline is that just because you have evil thoughts it does NOT make you evil. And I think it can actually be "therapy" to just 'go ahead' and feel evil--- feel ALL the evil you think you are capable of! We "work" it out wearing our different faces sometimes.... When the masks come off, we can see that we are neither good, nor bad. We just "are".... for the moment.

We "choose" our VALUES... not necessarily ARE them...

posted June 02, 2013 06:03 AM            

Really loved it

posted June 02, 2013 07:14 AM            

i got chaotic neutral ^^

posted June 02, 2013 09:11 AM            

I got lost in reading up on the types. Such an interesting test and it is easy to see how or which answers creates a type. Usually I`m left scratching my head on "how did I get that result"
Thanks PJ

posted June 02, 2013 09:39 AM            

Neutral Good- A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them. Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias for or against order. However, neutral good can be a dangerous alignment because when it advances mediocrity by limiting the actions of the truly capable.
http://easydamus.com/neutralgood.html

Phh to that last part.
"Truly capable" or "truly fanatic"?

The few times I've played tabletop, this has been my characters alignment as well.

posted June 02, 2013 05:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mockingbird:
Phh to that last part.
"Truly capable" or "truly fanatic"?

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Back when I first looked at the 3rd edition (I was 19, IIRC, and much more chaotic) I saw that Chaotic Goods sometimes didn't respect legitimate authority and my INSTANT response was that "legitimate authority is an oxymoron."

posted June 02, 2013 05:40 PM            

Chaotic Good Christian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEEpavnk7Uw

Lawful Evil Christian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3NoDEu7kpg

I also liked how in the movie these songs were back to back in the order I just gave them.