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Author	Topic: for the ladies - Your opinions
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 01:46 AM Is there a difference between emotional abuse and maniplulation? If so, how do you define it? IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 01:51 AM If you come from a backround of emotional abuse, is it easy for to recognise or do you recognize it and then gloss it over in your mind, making excuses for the person or did it become such a "norm" that you couldn't recognize it at all? IP: Logged
teasel Knowflake Posts: 6092 From: Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 01:57 AM I see my sister's treatment of me over the past two years, as emotional blackmail. "Do this, or I'll make your life hell". I don't know. I feel like I no longer have room in my back for knives. IP: Logged
FireMoon Knowflake Posts: 1638 From: Minnesota Registered: Mar 2012	posted April 09, 2014 02:06 AM Emotional abuse and manipulation go hand in hand... If someone can make you feel like sh*t about yourself they can also convince to do things that aren't in your best interest... The only way to handle it is tell that person they can F off and never look back lol IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 02:17 AM There seems to be a fine line between the two.. IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 02:18 AM Are there women here with that backround who go into denial about it? I think I do although I'm consciously aware of what's going on. IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 02:21 AM quote: Originally posted by FireMoon: *Emotional abuse and manipulation go hand in hand... If someone can make you feel like sht about yourself they can also convince to do things that aren't in your best interest... The only way to handle it is tell that person they can F off and never look back lol** My mentor once told me the same thing..yet it's like I still give people the benifit of the doubt as in trying rationalize the situation: maybe they didn't mean it etc.. Maybe they react out of anger.. IP: Logged
FireMoon Knowflake Posts: 1638 From: Minnesota Registered: Mar 2012	posted April 09, 2014 02:41 AM quote: Originally posted by charmainec: My mentor once told me the same thing..yet it's like I still give people the benifit of the doubt as in trying rationalize the situation: maybe they didn't mean it etc.. Maybe they react out of anger.. I have an extensive background in it too growing up... But T Pluto is getting closer to my Dsc and I'm learning I can't afford to put up with people's BS or make excuses for anyone. Emotional abuse is literally the reason emotional manipulation can exist.No one can manipulate you if you don't already doubt your own worth... It's a cycle too, abusers set you up for criticism, say terrible things, and then apologize for it and even get you to feel sorry for them... Learn to recognize the cues and then just cut them off, no one is that special, they should get over themselves and you should know you deserve respect... IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 02:42 AM When my sister does this to me I cut her off for a while because I don't know how to handle it. It brings up all sorts past issues. There was a time we didn't speak or interact for a couple of years.. Yet I still love her and can't cut her out completely, the same with relationships. What gets to me the most is when they KNOW what you went through (or even went through it themselves) yet they still do it to you. If someone loves you, knowing what issues you have and use this to press your buttons whether out of pure spite knowing it hurts you deeply then wtf? IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 02:45 AM quote: Originally posted by FireMoon: I have an extensive background in it too growing up... But T Pluto is getting closer to my Dsc and I'm learning I can't afford to put up with people's BS or make excuses for anyone. Emotional abuse is literally the reason emotional manipulation can exist.No one can manipulate you if you don't already doubt your own worth... It's a cycle too, abusers set you up for criticism, say terrible things, and then apologize for it and even get you to feel sorry for them... Learn to recognize the cues and then just cut them off, no one is that special, they should get over themselves and you should know you deserve respect... Quite. My dad did the same. Besides physical abuse, he's beat me down emotionally like I was the scum of the earth as if I had no worth and then the following day shower me with gifts all happy as if nothing happened. Be honest, do you think that maybe I still don't have a sense of self worth if I allow certain people in my life to get away with it without cutting them off? IP: Logged
FireMoon Knowflake Posts: 1638 From: Minnesota Registered: Mar 2012	posted April 09, 2014 03:00 AM ^Yeah they do that with the gifts and everything because otherwise no one would stick around. Even in a parental situation, they'd get no thrill out if it if the child didn't still look up to them or want their approval Honestly I think it's a very very difficult issue to overcome and that people who grew up with this end up playing it out in their own relationships (either as the abused or the abuser-or both) so you shouldn't feel guilty for dealing with this but it could definitely still be an issue if you think it is... Again the important part is to remember that it's not your fault for feeling insecure (that's how the whole issue starts to begin with...) IP: Logged
PixieJane Moderator Posts: 4295 From: CA Registered: Oct 2010	posted April 09, 2014 03:37 AM Manipulation is about influencing someone in unethical but not necessarily abusive ways. A fairly benign example is a sales technique of telling a mother the product will "help children do well at school" so that it implies if a customer is a good mother she'll buy the product (especially as a general and/or unproven statement--like saying a healthy breakfast is important and then plugging her to prove she's a good mom to buy the cereal right now). Hopefully no one is surprised that a lot--perhaps even the vast majority--of sale techniques and advertising is blatant manipulation rather than an honest offer or deal, even the "business lunch" could arguably be manipulation. They're fairly common to encounter in one's personal life, too. For example, someone volunteers a minor favor for you, like offering to drop off a video when it's on the way and then brings it up the next day and when you say thanks, s/he says it's no big deal, friends help each other, and then asks for a really big favor (that would be extremely inconvenient or take hours) soon after. That's manipulation...though I wouldn't call it abusive, but it could become so. Oh! A guy says he's going to make something to eat, and then ask mind boggling stupid questions on how to do it until you save him from making a complete mess of the kitchen (especially if you just cleaned it) and yourself from having to answer anymore of his idiotic questions you then just make it for him (resisting the urge to add a cup of cayenne pepper to whatever it is) and as he leaves you to make it he says thanks and asks for say a glass of milk to go with it as he waits for you to bring him his food. (I've not only experienced this but sharing with others I've found it's a common trick and one guy told me outright it's a trick.) Manipulative? Definitely. Annoying? Yes. Emotionally abusive? I would say no. Emotional abuse would be trying to make you feel like crap (like what a lazy cow you are or how you obviously don't love him) for not making it for him. Emotional abuse is one that engenders a disabling guilt, fear, self-loathing, and typically includes name calling, mockery, even threats (such as of abandonment, or like a boy who told me how his mother would actually stick a gun to her head when she was mad over him, that's extreme emotional abuse by an unfit mother). The result tends to be feeling like one has to walk on eggshells around someone, always cringing in fear how someone will respond when you wouldn't have that fear if it were someone else. Naturally it's used to manipulate but I wouldn't say all manipulative behavior is abusive. In a few cases it's true sadism (that is, they do it for fun or gratification rather than control). Actually it's not that rare to do it out of pure sadism if you count bullying. IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 04:00 AM quote: Originally posted by FireMoon: ^Yeah they do that with the gifts and everything because otherwise no one would stick around. Even in a parental situation, they'd get no thrill out if it if the child didn't still look up to them or want their approval Honestly I think it's a very very difficult issue to overcome and that people who grew up with this end up playing it out in their own relationships (either as the abused or the abuser-or both) so you shouldn't feel guilty for dealing with this but it could definitely still be an issue if you think it is... Again the important part is to remember that it's not your fault for feeling insecure (that's how the whole issue starts to begin with...) I'm a hypocrite because I volunteer at a shelter for abused women in my free time and they are encouraged/motivated and counciled for such things yet I can't really apply it to my own life. Do you ever feel or experienced transgressing into that old you of you when you were in that situation? You become that kid again and behave the same way? IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 04:03 AM Thanks you for your input, Pixie. Good examples you have there. Yes, maybe emotional abuse and maniplulation have their distinctions. Depending on the situation, there can also be a fine line between the two. IP: Logged
12muddy Knowflake Posts: 1681 From: Registered: Feb 2013	posted April 09, 2014 04:08 AM quote: Originally posted by charmainec: Is there a difference between emotional abuse and maniplulation? If so, how do you define it? Hmm, to me abuse is often carried out with the intention to cause harm. In some cases it's hard to separate the two. quote: Originally posted by charmainec: If you come from a backround of emotional abuse, is it easy for to recognise or do you recognize it and then gloss it over in your mind, making excuses for the person or did it become such a "norm" that you couldn't recognize it at all? I recognize it easily. With my parents, I tolerate them a lot but I've never tried to make excuses for them. With other people, just no. Honestly I can tolerate a bit of emotional manipulation, especially from friends, but not abuse. In the recent years I seem to have become less and less tolerating though. Manipulation in the form of tears and guilt trips is the kind that gets on my nerve very quickly. IME the abusers often use the "anger" excuse - ex: "I was angry, I didn't mean it". Cute. But no. IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 04:21 AM Sometimes people do react out of anger and say things in the heat of the moment. The difference is when they intensionally go at you knowing what effect it will have on you. The intension to delibrately hurt and in the hopes of you becoming submissive. IP: Logged
teasel Knowflake Posts: 6092 From: Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 04:44 AM Oh, don't let someone convince you that you have no value. That's what happened to me over the last few years, and now I'm ultra sensitive. It's one thing when it's people who are there, but not close; it's another when it's someone that I trusted - a few people. I can't live with my walls up - I'm not made that way - but when I lower them and that happens - I now have trouble liking myself at times. I'm wary, and if I'm not careful, I see myself as they do, and feel like I lose a bit more of myself. IP: Logged
Ellynlvx Moderator Posts: 7305 From: the Point of Light within the Mind of God Registered: Aug 2013	posted April 09, 2014 04:44 AM Didn't I read somewhere that you have Sun Square Mars? That sounds like one way it might manifest. (The relationship with your father.) IP: Logged
teasel Knowflake Posts: 6092 From: Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 04:46 AM quote: Originally posted by 12muddy: I recognize it easily. With my parents, I tolerate them a lot but I've never tried to make excuses for them. With other people, just no. Honestly I can tolerate a bit of emotional manipulation, especially from friends, but not abuse. In the recent years I seem to have become less and less tolerating though. Manipulation in the form of tears and guilt trips is the kind that gets on my nerve very quickly. IME the abusers often use the "anger" excuse - ex: "I was angry, I didn't mean it". Cute. But no. When I cry, it isn't emotional manipulation. It's what I'm feeling, and stuffing it down did me no good when I was younger - it comes out eventually. I've been mocked for crying, and I don't stand for that. IP: Logged
12muddy Knowflake Posts: 1681 From: Registered: Feb 2013	posted April 09, 2014 05:05 AM ^ I'm pretty sure crying to let your emotions out and crying to manipulate are different. I was talking about the later. THe kind where they look at me with tears rolling on their cheeks and a look in their eyes that says "It's all because of you". Meh. IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 05:18 AM quote: Originally posted by teasel: Oh, don't let someone convince you that you have no value. That's what happened to me over the last few years, and now I'm ultra sensitive. It's one thing when it's people who are there, but not close; it's another when it's someone that I trusted - a few people. I can't live with my walls up - I'm not made that way - but when I lower them and that happens - I now have trouble liking myself at times. I'm wary, and if I'm not careful, I see myself as they do, and feel like I lose a bit more of myself. Quite. When it's done by a person you're aquainted with or someone you're not close to then it's easier to handle compared to a close friend or relative. IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 05:20 AM quote: Originally posted by teasel: When I cry, it isn't emotional manipulation. It's what I'm feeling, and stuffing it down did me no good when I was younger - it comes out eventually. I've been mocked for crying, and I don't stand for that. IP: Logged
charmainec Moderator Posts: 8183 From: Venus next to Randall Registered: Apr 2009	posted April 09, 2014 05:25 AM quote: Originally posted by Ellynlvx: Didn't I read somewhere that you have Sun Square Mars? That sounds like one way it might manifest. (The relationship with your father.) This topic is to focus on how it still manifests with others. The core was with him yet there is still a cycle of having/allowing such relationships and how we deal with it. IP: Logged
Ellynlvx Moderator Posts: 7305 From: the Point of Light within the Mind of God Registered: Aug 2013	posted April 09, 2014 05:30 AM We don't necessarily do those things our self, but it is something that manifests in our environment. IP: Logged
MetalAphrodite Moderator Posts: 1842 From: Zanguin :3 Registered: Jul 2012	posted April 09, 2014 06:17 AM For me, manipulation is a broad term and is also very neutral, despite it having a negative connotation. Emotional abuse is a specific type of manipulation that is negative, as it is abused. I suppose if it weren't overused, it wouldn't be referred to as abuse. IP: Logged

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