posted June 25, 2014 02:27 PM            

I don't mind this at all. However, I find it weird that people keep asking me if that makes sense at all and if that means she's a lesbian or I'm a lesbian.

Personally, I think she's really beautiful, whether dressed as a man or woman. I find more of my inner femininity being brought out because here is someone that appreciates make up and fashion; she knows the effort it would take to put into one's appearance.

She told me that she prefers I refer to her as a girl, but doesn't mind if I call her boyfriend or girlfriend(and has affectionately told me she is a little of both to me).

She told me recently that she's putting off gender reassignment surgery because she's attracted to me. The gravity of this statement has yet to fully sink in.

Since dating her, I've been working on how I view gender and sexuality labels. A guy who wears stereotypical/traditional female clothes is not automatically gay or bi. I am attracted to her gentleness, but also the firm gentlemanly nature of her expression of affection towards me. She is still the "man" of the relationship, but I am more direct and straightforward in expression than she is.

posted June 25, 2014 02:56 PM            

DISCLAIMER: just my opinion above, don't want to get flanked for this!

People are so fixated on someone being only male or female, gay or straight, or god forbid bisexual (people are so wanky about this one) that it seems weird to most people when we refuse to be labeled a role that truly doesn't fit us. I think its also related to social norms/manipulated norms and a lack of education unfortunately.

This reminds me of when Laverne Cox (have you heard of her? On the show OINTB) was asked whether she had gender reassignment surgery since Laverne dresses as a woman and wears makeup. That is unfortunately a response a lot of transgender people get, as if not getting the gender reassignment surgery means you can't truly be a 'woman' or 'man.'

Also, I really appreciate your posts- always insightful and caring.

posted June 25, 2014 03:11 PM            

Also, what do you mean by: "she's the man" in the relationship?

posted June 25, 2014 03:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BellaFenice:
I get what you are trying to say. I've always felt that sexuality is a non-permanent entity on a continuum- no one is 100% of whatever they identify themselves as.

DISCLAIMER: just my opinion above, don't want to get flanked for this!

People are so fixated on someone being only male or female, gay or straight, or god forbid bisexual (people are so wanky about this one) that it seems weird to most people when we refuse to be labeled a role that truly doesn't fit us. I think its also related to social norms/manipulated norms and a lack of education unfortunately.

This reminds me of when Laverne Cox (have you heard of her? On the show OINTB) was asked whether she had gender reassignment surgery since Laverne dresses as a woman and wears makeup. That is unfortunately a response a lot of transgender people get, as if not getting the gender reassignment surgery means you can't truly be a 'woman' or 'man.'

Also, I really appreciate your posts- always insightful and caring.

---

I've never heard of Laverne Cox, but I'll look her up.

It's been a bit rough because I don't know how to understand more about her without offending her. I've made it a habit to say before asking questions about her feelings about her gender and sexuality "I'm about to ask you a potentially offensive question." I feel like if I don't ask, I won't know. I'm not trying to be nosy, but understand her position so I know what stance to take when someone asks me a question.

Of course, I could always take the "it's none of your business" approach, but even so, this is so I can understand what's going on and better gauge emotionally how to navigate handling it.

She was surprised that I've introduced her to most of my family by her female name, commenting that no one had called or introduced her to other friends by her male name. I also saw that her fb profile that is connected to mine has a very male appearance still. I felt weird at first adding it because her male appearance is very male and feels like her brother or relative lol, not her herself.

Someone made a statement a couple days ago that caught me by surprise.

He said that homosexuality, and in extension, all different sexualities, is a fetish. That he doesn't understand why a person would base their entire existence off of one aspect or even base the qualifications of a partner on their genitals, rather than the personality and soul residing in that shell. I am very attracted to this person's soul.

I feel very masculine in spirit and only recently started embracing my inner divine feminine. I know I am more than my body.

I wonder if she feels pressured to have gender reassignment surgery to be considered truly female, if she can continue to express her inner feminine just the way she is? Or will having a female lookng body be the only way she can reach her personal nirvana Shangri-la?

posted June 25, 2014 03:39 PM            

Maybe she sees a future with you beyond you guys just dating. Maybe she wants children with you one day and that's why she's putting it off. Are you aware of her intentions with you?

If you love her and care for her than that's all that matters. Don't worry about the labels. People label and judge us regardless, who cares. Live your life the way you want to live it.

posted June 25, 2014 03:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Interesting, but I'm confused about your post. Is the man in her attracted to you (since he/she's postponing the surgery because of that) or the woman in him?

Also, what do you mean by: "she's the man" in the relationship?

Or everything is basically asexual between you?

---

She has said to my sister long before I met her(they're coworkers- we met on a blind date) that even though she's been transitioning, she's still attracted to women. This is her first relationship as a woman. Before I was introduced to her, my sister briefly explained her to me. I was fine with it. On our second date, she did tell me that she wanted to have children and a family.

When I say she's the man of the relationship, I mean that she still takes the leading role with what we do. She does everything a guy would do for his lady(hold doors open, pull chairs out for me, pay for my things, pace the relationship), but in french nails and a mini skirt. I told her this was something that appealed to me because it's mental friction and visual stimulation with all my classically held beliefs.

There is sexual tension between us. My sister knew her before I did and told me that she's full girl. When I'm with her, she speaks softly as a girl and we cuddle and stuff, but I can tell the polarity is very heightened between us. I can feel her attraction to me like energy in the air; it crackles and is strong. Idk if that makes sense.

posted June 25, 2014 04:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
I LOVE Laverne Cox. Beautiful soul inside and out.

Maybe she sees a future with you beyond you guys just dating. Maybe she wants children with you one day and that's why she's putting it off. Are you aware of her intentions with you?

If you love her and care for her than that's all that matters. Don't worry about the labels. People label and judge us regardless, who cares. Live your life the way you want to live it.

I sense the love you have for her through your post. You both are blessed to have each other. Make that your label, not the superficial ones that are made today.

---

The only time I had urged her to be blunt was when she was asking me out to be her girlfriend.

Her: So, I guess we can consider this official now.

Me: (ignores, changes subject)

[Later]

Her: So, I guess we can consider this official now.

Me: Why don't you officially ask me so I can officially say yes?

Her: Do you want to be my girlfriend?

Me: Yes!

Me: ...

Me: Does that make you my boyfriend or girlfriend?

Her: A little bit of both.

She's said many times to me since then that she's falling in love with me. We haven't said I love you to each other. We've been dating for two weeks as of yesterday.

As of this moment, I'm teary eyed. I remember crying to my gay friend over the phone after the fourth date because I was so overwhelmed because I know I'm going to have to fight other people to protect her. My family has been really supportive and understanding so far. They've asked questions to try and better understand her as well.

posted June 25, 2014 04:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MetalAphrodite:
I think I just need to ask her again what does she want long term with us(she did mention marriage and children already) and what her goals are with becoming a woman.

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I think you should. It would give your mind closure in that area. Instead of wondering what ifs, you'd know right? Maybe you bring out her masculine traits. Would you be okay if she wanted to go back to her natural state, or not following through with the surgery?

posted June 25, 2014 05:18 PM            

I have a gay male friend that is confused right now because he is attracted to and really likes the personality of a female that identifies as a male.

He says he'd never have known she has lady parts down there because she looks very masculine. (using 'she' just so there is less confusion in this particular post)

My friend says "I really like him but I can't deal with vagina!!! What am I supposed to do?!"

So I know this is different than your situation but it just shows there are so many different aspects with gender and sexuality that a lot of people don't ever have to think about or aren't exposed to.

It's also sort of interesting because my cousin has a child who is in his/her teens right now and I'm not sure yet how he/she wants to be referred as. It's something I'll have to ask my cousin soon since I'll be moving close to her and we'll see each other for the first time in 25+ years!! I believe he was born a boy, then identified as a girl but recent pictures look more asexual bordering on masculine? Not sure if that is the proper terminology. I don't care either way, of course, I just want to make him/her most comfortable when we are hanging out!

posted June 25, 2014 06:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MetalAphrodite:
if that makes sense at all

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Love rarely makes sense.

quote:

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Originally posted by MetalAphrodite:
if that means she's a lesbian or I'm a lesbian

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I can tell you that most lesbians wouldn't be interested in her before she transitions, and plenty still wouldn't be into her even after she completed the journey. So based on that I'd say you're not a lesbian. Sounds to me like you might be pansexual.

But as for her, if she identifies as female and is actually transitioning then that's the rare man who can sincerely say he's a "lesbian in a man's body."

quote:

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Originally posted by MetalAphrodite:
He said that homosexuality, and in extension, all different sexualities, is a fetish. That he doesn't understand why a person would base their entire existence off of one aspect or even base the qualifications of a partner on their genitals, rather than the personality and soul residing in that shell

---

posted June 25, 2014 06:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Love rarely makes sense.

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Word!

posted June 25, 2014 06:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MoonWitch:

Word!

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posted June 25, 2014 07:14 PM            

I think asking questions is good. I don't think she'll take offense, since you're asking from a desire to understand, not judge. And she seems quite 'cool', anyway.

It's great that your family is supportive of your relationship. I can understand your concerns about having to fight for her against ignorant, closed-minded individuals. They're stupid, and their 'opinions' don't matter.

On a side note, my best friend from high school was a gay man. He always wanted to have a vagina. He'd dream about it. He loved vagina so much that he enjoyed performing oral sex on women. He didn't feel the desire to penetrate a vagina, though.

posted June 25, 2014 07:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
I think you should. It would give your mind closure in that area. Instead of wondering what ifs, you'd know right? Maybe you bring out her masculine traits. Would you be okay if she wanted to go back to her natural state, or not following through with the surgery?

Don't cry we fight for the people we love because we love them and want the best for them. She's lucky to have you. Maybe she just wants all of this to be natural for you and is willing to not follow through with things for the both of you.

---

I would like her to do what is right for her and not defer or derail her life in favor of mine. A natural existence would be one in which she is able to live by being who she wants to be.

posted June 25, 2014 07:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MoonWitch:
Timely.

I have a gay male friend that is confused right now because he is attracted to and really likes the personality of a female that identifies as a male.

He says he'd never have known she has lady parts down there because she looks very masculine. (using 'she' just so there is less confusion in this particular post)

My friend says "I really like him but I can't deal with vagina!!! What am I supposed to do?!"

So I know this is different than your situation but it just shows there are so many different aspects with gender and sexuality that a lot of people don't ever have to think about or aren't exposed to.

It's also sort of interesting because my cousin has a child who is in his/her teens right now and I'm not sure yet how he/she wants to be referred as. It's something I'll have to ask my cousin soon since I'll be moving close to her and we'll see each other for the first time in 25+ years!! I believe he was born a boy, then identified as a girl but recent pictures look more asexual bordering on masculine? Not sure if that is the proper terminology. I don't care either way, of course, I just want to make him/her most comfortable when we are hanging out!

---

Oh wow, I'm so glad I'm not the only one going through this, though it's a bit of a different ball game because I do have a M to F and I'm traditionally attracted to the M, though I don't mind F and enjoy that part of her. Your friend likes M with a F to M.

And to me, it's like how beautiful and scary is that? What if your friend is missing out on an opportunity to start a close and intimate relation because of the lady bits? I was telling myself that I had to confront that as well, that if my partner loses her manly bits, that I need to be honest with myself as to whether or not I can deal with it. Seems your friend is already at this point.

posted June 25, 2014 07:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I can tell you that most lesbians wouldn't be interested in her before she transitions, and plenty still wouldn't be into her even after she completed the journey. So based on that I'd say you're not a lesbian. Sounds to me like you might be pansexual.

But as for her, if she identifies as female and is actually transitioning then that's the rare man who can sincerely say he's a "lesbian in a man's body."

---

I once wrote a story about this a long while ago when I was in my early 20s that featured a woman in her 30s falling for a coworker that as a lipstick lesbian, M to F fully transitioned transgendered person. I'm not sure why I wrote that, but for a long time, I had found the idea fascinating.

Why wouldn't most lesbians be interested in her after transitioning? <-- sorry if that is supposed to be an obvious statement. I don't understand.

quote:

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If she feels that way then I'd wonder why she'd want to be referred to as a specific gender, let alone transition. I can understand why someone like her would think that about orientation, but I don't understand why someone who thinks only the soul is important and not gender would feel strongly enough to endure the pain & expense of transitioning...or why she would hold off transitioning for your sake. Or even want to be referred to as a "she" since gender doesn't matter to her, the body is but a vessel for the soul and gender irrelevant. Yet despite this, gender is obviously very important to her own identity and her relationship with you.

---

It was someone completely unrelated that made that statement about homosexuality being a fetish, not my partner. Sorry for the confusion.

My partner told me once nonchalantly, but in a quiet, tongue in cheek manner, that she had always felt like she was supposed to be a girl. She didn't speak much about her transitioning and when I asked how long has she been transitioning, she was vague about the date. I think she knows how long she's been doing this, but was reluctant to expose herself in a vulnerable manner. My sister told me my partner's first marriage fell apart because her wife didn't accept her transitioning and became violent towards her.

I used to think I belonged in a male body and it was really bad to the point where my voice was so naturally deep that it cracked like a teenage boy's voice. At some point, I told myself that I'm in this body so I might as well make the most of it.

Et voila, I'm here now.

I think I would be where she is now if I didn't give up so easily and pursued being male. At the same time, it could just be that I just "am" and am constantly straddling the line of male and female.

posted June 25, 2014 08:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BellaFenice:

People are so fixated on someone being only male or female, gay or straight, or god forbid bisexual (people are so wanky about this one) that it seems weird to most people when we refuse to be labeled a role that truly doesn't fit us. I think its also related to social norms/manipulated norms and a lack of education unfortunately.

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^ Well said.

Also want to add that it's easier for females to play with gender, without as much backlash or drama.

The other day, I found a picture of myself around age 5...no one would know I was a girl. I'm tempted to post a picture of it, it's extraordinary how much I look like my brother who I am sitting next to.

For a while, in high school, I was gender-bending because it just made me feel safer. Kept potential romantic prospects at bay, made me feel tough.

Then in my early 20's, I made a radical change towards ultra-femininity, wore long floral skirts and grew my hair out...

Got tired of that, too, and now I'm just an average American woman.

If I had obsessed about gender issues at any point in my life, it would have been unhelpful. I just went with the flow of what I felt like doing at any given time. I'm actually kinda glad that becoming transgender wasn't a big thing when I was a teenager...everyone would have asked me if that's what my intention was...but I never wanted any questions, actually...just did my own thing.

posted June 25, 2014 08:28 PM            

That sounds a lot like my own journey, though as a child I was more about convenience than anything else (though as a runaway I did find it helped to try to pass as a young boy--which I could do with loose clothing as I had delayed puberty and also stunted growth--at times to deflect the attention of certain predators, and even when a guy was after a boy I could easily dissuade him by admitting to being a girl ). For example, living in the Texas heat with no AC in many vehicles with the window down (or riding in the back of a truck) as well as my many athletic activities made having short hair a must. Ironically, my male cousin liked to grow his hair out long back then, though even he often banded his hair tightly behind him or even put it all under a hat at times. And dresses ripped so easy, unlike jeans, and no one cared when I stained jeans, so again with avoiding the girly stuff.

Getting shunned by local neighborhood girls so that I was forced to play with the boys only encouraged me to do so (and I kept a foot in boy world all through my school years even after being allowed to rejoin girl world).

posted June 25, 2014 08:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ariestaurus:
If you're comfortable, you should post your syanstry chart with her!

I think asking questions is good. I don't think she'll take offense, since you're asking from a desire to understand, not judge. And she seems quite 'cool', anyway.

It's great that your family is supportive of your relationship. I can understand your concerns about having to fight for her against ignorant, closed-minded individuals. They're stupid, and their 'opinions' don't matter.

On a side note, my best friend from high school was a gay man. He always wanted to have a vagina. He'd dream about it. He loved vagina so much that he enjoyed performing oral sex on women. He didn't feel the desire to penetrate a vagina, though.

I have another good friend who has relationships with men and women. She said that the sex of the person doesn't matter, the PERSON matters. Instead of bisexuality, she describes it as "gender-blindness".

---

My whole family basically met her as a "her" before I did. When I told my mom that I was dating someone from my sister's work, she thought there were only girls there. So after I explained what was going on, she stared at me for the first 5 minutes sputtering, "What the hell is wrong with you!?" Then she got to meet my partner and talk to her and was was comfortable afterwards. My mom told my dad, whose reaction I fear the most. He has not mentioned it to me yet, but I expect him to say something to me when he's angry. That's more his personality though, rather than anything to do with my partner.

Still @__@.

I told my partner that. I think she'll be cautious but okay about everything.

posted June 25, 2014 08:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MetalAphrodite:
It was someone completely unrelated that made that statement about homosexuality being a fetish, not my partner. Sorry for the confusion

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Yeah, looking at it again I see you said someone else. If that was already there and I missed it then sorry for my confusion.

posted June 25, 2014 08:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MetalAphrodite:
Is that rare?

I once wrote a story about this a long while ago when I was in my early 20s that featured a woman in her 30s falling for a coworker that as a lipstick lesbian, M to F fully transitioned transgendered person. I'm not sure why I wrote that, but for a long time, I had found the idea fascinating.

Why wouldn't most lesbians be interested in her after transitioning? <-- sorry if that is supposed to be an obvious statement. I don't understand.[/B]

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Most wouldn't be interested in her before transitioning (and the few who were would be more likely to be called pansexual, or the sometimes dreaded "bi" word).

As for after transitioning, then it wouldn't be so many, though my impression is plenty would still be adverse to it. For one thing, lesbians like women...though some lesbians do feel a bit male and choose to express that in being masculine, plenty of lesbians only become masculine believing that it will help attract the more feminine women that they're attracted to (and get frustrated when it doesn't work as well as they'd like, not all that dissimilar for a gay man wanting a macho guy femming himself up only to find his seeming femininity is a turn off to many of the gay men he desires).

Most who transition do so as adults and that means most of the time they're taller, broader, deeper voiced than many who are born women. I've heard of classes on how to pass as female which is essentially reeducating them on how to deal with the world since men and women are treated differently and are expected to act differently (even by many who say it shouldn't matter), and if they don't it can also come off as masculine. I'm not sure how scents are affected either, but I could see that as also being a factor. And in some cases lesbian fantasize about a woman who was born a girl (that is had experiences growing up that a boy wouldn't have had and thus can scarcely understand even after transitioning) and those fantasies are very important to them and/or they may feel uncomfortable discussing certain things with one who didn't grow up with it (which can put up a barrier between them).

And then lesbians are ordinary people, they can be as squeamish or bigoted as anyone else (IOW feel the same way about dating a MTF the same exact way as plenty of straight men would).