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Author Topic:   How to stop being shallow?
Doux Rêve
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posted August 10, 2014 11:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I find myself shallow, and would like to change that (if it's even possible).

What I mean by shallow is that I pay a lot of attention to looks in general - mine and other people's.

Often I'm attracted to someone mentally or emotionally but not physically, and it's really frustrating. I wish I could just go past the appearance aspect because it'd make life easier.

I'm extremely self-conscious; and what you could call "picky." I don't choose to be that way but it's automatic, and it's debilitating.

I don't want to be controlled by something as fleeting and ephemeral as looks. I could use some tolerance when it comes to looks - mine and other people's.
It doesn't change a thing for me in friendship but it definitely does in closer interactions.

Any insight?

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BellaFenice
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posted August 10, 2014 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BellaFenice     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First question: do you have Venus square/opposition Mars or Moon?
What you are describing is kind of similar to me: I meet people I'm physically attracted to but not emotionally/intellectually or I'm not attracted to them but emotionally/intellectually I am.

Its seriously been a dry spell the last couple of years for me so I have to wonder if I am too shallow too. I'm very picky too. To be fair, my luck hasn't been great though (the universe is like: NOPE. lolol).

Do you mean that you are extremely critical of the way you look (...do you have Virgo in your chart?) and this is projected onto other people?

The first piece of advice is that you have to make greater piece with the way you look. Would you say its more of a high standards for yourself or maybe BDD? That will change the other advice I give you.

P.S. Do you think the Super Moon right now is making it worse? Good lord I have been emotional today for no reason!

Sorry for all of the questions! lololol

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SoujiroSeta
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posted August 11, 2014 12:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SoujiroSeta     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I say accept yourself for who you are? No?

I don't know where the "mental/emotional connection last but looks don't" mantra came from. Emotional/mental connections are also fleeting as well, just like looks.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I love my spouse, and they're everything to me, but I'm not attracted to them anymore and I practically have sex with him/her because I feel bad. I can't continue this sexless/lack of attraction marriage. What should I do?". If I got a penny for every one of those I'd retire now.

I'm like you too. I need mental AND physical connection. I used to lie to myself in the past and recite the same mantra "looks fade and mental connection is more important". lol, thank goodness I know myself better now. I'm not looking for physical perfection, but there needs to be a strong physical attraction.

I've been attracted to women, but no mental. I ended things before they could start. Likewise I've had great rapports but no physical, and I did the exact same thing. That was when I realized it's ok to not lie to myself anymore. YOU ARE NOT SHALLOW FOR WANTING BOTH.

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BellaFenice
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posted August 11, 2014 12:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BellaFenice     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^Soujiro (cool name BTW), you make some really good points. I can relate to everything you said, for better or worse lolol. You definitely need and deserve both if the relationship is to not only thrive but be meaningful.

I think the main issue Doux is having isn't the physical vs. emotional/intellectual, but rather questioning whether she is focusing too much on looks. And possibly being consumed by it due to pressure from society, self, peers, etc. More of being critical of her own looks and seeing it manifest in picking only the most attractive partners or having to meet very high criteria to validate her self-worth (just a theory I have, no offense or harm meant Doux).

Edit: Another thing could be synastry: maybe the synastry you get with people isn't ideal. If someone could find a guy with placements like Venus and Moon in Libra/Aqua/Gem, Mars in Cancer/Scorp (Hell NO to Pisces lolol), Uranus and Plutonian aspects (I have a weird chart), and 4th house energy I'd be good.

^^This is reaaalllyyy picky, but the point I am trying to make is did you observe good, mediocre, or bad synastry with these people. I've had little to none of the above and craptastic synastry.

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Brontex
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posted August 11, 2014 01:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brontex     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This will probably sound pretty shallow in its own right, but then my Venus is at zero degrees Sagittarius. (And FWIW it does square my Mars AND I have a 6th house stellium, which makes it pretty Virgo-esque despite being mostly in Libra).

I think the problem for a lot of people is looking for "love" instead of accepting the fact that sometimes you just need a little "lovin' ." And there's nothing wrong with that as long as you're up front about it. It's a lot easier to find someone mental and physically interesting if you aren't thinking about being with them forever.

I'm not saying certain filters or standards shouldn't be kept in place, or that it's cool to crawl between the sheets with everyone who shows interest, but it can be a good way to find yourself in a pleasant situation you might otherwise have missed.

The way I see it, limted experience lends itself to limited opinions and limited options. Not the other way around.

You might even find that things you thought you wanted aren't really all that important after all, and that the whole often really is greater than the sum of the parts. When you stop writing other people off for their imperfections, odd are you'll stop caring so much about your own.

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athenegoddess
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posted August 11, 2014 01:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for athenegoddess     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can say that the way you treat others is how you will be treated. So as long as you judge others by their looks people will judge you.

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PixieJane
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posted August 11, 2014 01:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know your details (and I'm assuming you're fairly normal) so just some observations (you did ask for insights).

One, there's a huge industry designed to make you feel critical of your attractiveness and how people see you so that you'll buy their products. On top of that actors are usually those who are made to look better than normal (typically with very expensive and/or intensive help, some are hard to recognize when they're not all made up, and that goes for the guys as well) and that contributes to unrealistic expectations (and not just on looks).

Blending into that, good guys are also typically shown as attractive (and bad guys sometimes shown as unattractive, especially if they're "lesser" or one-shot villains) and that can shape your imagination as well. What a lot of people are attracted to (or repelled by) is what they associate with the image (That is how someone looks which can include race, fashion, size & build, even peripheral things as tats and cigarettes) rather than the image itself, that is they associate the looks with a fantasy (or a nightmare) and that creates attraction (or repulsion). In that case taking control of your imagination rather than letting it work as it's been taught (programmed) to work can help. Self-hypnosis might work (not to shape your mind to a new standard but rather to foster some sort of curiosity or open-mindedness), but in my experience (used for something else) it takes awhile as it has decades of shaping to counter and that's not going to go away overnight.

Of course there's social stigmatization (which the media helps shape), too. Some women are self-conscious if a man is too small, doesn't make enough, or doesn't look a certain way as it comes off as "settling" and that "she can't do better" (that is she's not only judging her own worth by her own looks but by his). I think it also plays into girls being raised with the idea that they should have a "prince" of some sort, and of course princes look really good (in fantasy).

That said, another danger is being programmed to think you are "incomplete" or "flawed" for not having a romantic partner so they feel desperate to have someone, anyone (hey, frogs and beasts turn into princes through a woman's love all the time, right?) and that can cause you to settle for someone not right for you, and that's not good or fair to either of you since you're keeping him from the right person as much as you're doing it to yourself.

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PixieJane
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posted August 11, 2014 01:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In either case, I'd think finding something not based on your appearance to feel good about yourself would be very helpful here. That is find something else to care about and pursue that for awhile instead. Though it's difficult for many women (given how they were raised) some do it and they seem happier for it...and by following their own passion (goals in life) they actually meet the right person rather than some jerk who approaches her looking for his next conquest and can be much more desirable to the said person as a kindred spirit rather than just looking pretty.

But if it doesn't work...you're in good company. I just don't like how vulnerable (including to crime) society becomes because they judge so much by looks as well as how many (even those not really that bad looking) are made to suffer just so some people can get filthy rich. And you did ask for insights on how to change so I threw that out there.

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PixieJane
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posted August 11, 2014 01:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As a variant to social stigma of marrying a man who "doesn't measure up" (and thus she will be gossiped about negatively) I was amused to hear of one woman who would not let her husban go to a doctor because she was a nurse and therefore his being sick looked bad on her as a nurse so would hide the fact from the world in shame. Hope he didn't mind too much.

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aquaguy91
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posted August 11, 2014 03:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think you have to be atleast somewhat physically attracted to someone if you are going to have a sexual/romantic relationship with them. With that being said it's bad to have expectations that are too high. I think the secret is to find someone who you share a connection with and looks ok to you. I think it's possible for their looks to grow on you over time. But it's definitely a big mistake to try and get with someone you are not attracted to at all. I have been there and done that, It didn't work and she ended up getting hurt really bad.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted August 11, 2014 04:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it may help to ask what information you are gaining from the physical appearance.

If it is driven by media-constructed ideas of beauty that are designed to keep people chasing an unattainable perfection and glamour, then that could be deemed shallow, because the media IS shallow.

However, if you are gaining information about someone's health, nature, mood, authenticity, etc, then that could not be deemed shallow.

The only problem with this is that I'm not sure how good we are at judging these things from appearance. Although evolutionary psychology seems to think we have instinctual reactions to a person's appearance, and that we can judge their fitness as a mate based on visual information (along with other non-verbal signs).

Personally, I think we can get a "feel" for someone's nature, in that moment. And that that can mean the difference between us pursuing deeper information through connecting with them or not.

So, I think whether you are being shallow or not, depends on what you are judging their appearance against, and for what informational purpose.

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Ami Anne
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posted August 11, 2014 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the question is more about deeper issues such as one's worth. I say that from experience because that would be the only way to know it lol


The feelings of worthlessness go deep, very, very deep. The feelings of self hate go very, very deep.

Helping others does help us get out of our own head but does not change these deep, ingrained beliefs imo

I think the simple answer is self love but the hard part is overcoming years and years of conditioning in which one was told one was not good enough, for whatever reason.

The conditioning builds huge edifices and these edifices are like big, cement buildings that stand in the middle of a town square.

HOW to break them down? I am trying to do that as you can tell by my answer. The progress is soooooo slow, as to feel like a snails pace.

I know the answer is self love and the answer is not to demand perfection of myself but the edifices were built to help me survive, so what do you do? lol

I know I did not give an answer, per se. For me, the short answer is to know that God loves me and God simply does not make junk.

However, to get that into my heart seems like the distance from you and me, in geography

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 11:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BellaFenice:
First question: do you have Venus square/opposition Mars or Moon?

Hi, thanks for responding.
I have Venus sextile Moon but out of sign. It does semi-sextile my Mars, and I believe semi-sextiles are not positive aspects. Moon square Mars could play a role as well.

quote:
Its seriously been a dry spell the last couple of years for me so I have to wonder if I am too shallow too. I'm very picky too. To be fair, my luck hasn't been great though (the universe is like: NOPE. lolol).

Sorry to hear that. I know a lot of people who struggle with this, too.

quote:
Do you mean that you are extremely critical of the way you look (...do you have Virgo in your chart?) and this is projected onto other people?

I think that could be it.
I have a Virgo Moon/Chiron sq. ASC + 6H stellium.

quote:
The first piece of advice is that you have to make greater piece with the way you look. Would you say its more of a high standards for yourself or maybe BDD? That will change the other advice I give you.

Ahh, I know that. Other people would probably say I have BDD. I don't think I do, but I am definitely not in a place where I can say I accept myself the way I am. Far from it.

quote:
P.S. Do you think the Super Moon right now is making it worse? Good lord I have been emotional today for no reason!

Absolutely. Yesterday night was awful... I was sick in all ways possible. Just awful. Glad it's over. Hope you're feeling better now.

quote:
Sorry for all of the questions!

No problem.

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Ami Anne
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posted August 11, 2014 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a whole different off topic subject but why don't you think semi sextiles are good, Doux. I really respect your opinion so had to ask. Hope that is OK

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SoujiroSeta:
I say accept yourself for who you are? No?

Right. That seems to be the root of the problem. I can't tell for sure but perhaps if I am more accepting of my own looks I'll be less focused on other people's looks, too.

quote:
I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I love my spouse, and they're everything to me, but I'm not attracted to them anymore and I practically have sex with him/her because I feel bad. I can't continue this sexless/lack of attraction marriage. What should I do?". If I got a penny for every one of those I'd retire now.

That's awful. Adds to my commitment phobia.

quote:
I'm like you too. I need mental AND physical connection. I used to lie to myself in the past and recite the same mantra "looks fade and mental connection is more important". lol, thank goodness I know myself better now. I'm not looking for physical perfection, but there needs to be a strong physical attraction.

I can't deny that. Glad you're at peace with that.

quote:
I've been attracted to women, but no mental. I ended things before they could start. Likewise I've had great rapports but no physical, and I did the exact same thing. That was when I realized it's ok to not lie to myself anymore. YOU ARE NOT SHALLOW FOR WANTING BOTH.

You're probably right. Thanks for your reply.


I'm having very different thoughts in mind now, based on all the other replies.
I will try to get into them shortly.

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
This is a whole different off topic subject but why don't you think semi sextiles are good, Doux. I really respect your opinion so had to ask. Hope that is OK


That is totally fine, Ami.

Based on my own experience, that's all.

There was an article I read a long time ago about Venus semi-sextile Mars and it was basically lumped together with the inconjunct (quincunx, a hard aspect) and it made 100% sense. I mean, signs that are next to each other have very little in common, there's almost no common ground. Therefore there's more friction in the energy. That's my opinion.

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BellaFenice:
I think the main issue Doux is having isn't the physical vs. emotional/intellectual, but rather questioning whether she is focusing too much on looks. And possibly being consumed by it due to pressure from society, self, peers, etc. More of being critical of her own looks and seeing it manifest in picking only the most attractive partners or having to meet very high criteria to validate her self-worth (just a theory I have, no offense or harm meant Doux).

Sure, no offense taken.
But, no. That's not it.
I in no way feel pressured by society (when it comes to the other person's looks. Mine are a different story). I don't think to myself, "Wow this person would look good next to me" or "Wow this person wouldn't look good next to me at all." The problem is that I find very few people attractive, to me personally. Hm, wonder why I didn't mention that in my OP... Well, that's why I said I'm "picky," but really it's not a conscious thing (I don't think).

You know what, nevermind. I think it's fairly simple to understand (in my own mind. I don't want to expand on it right now but may do it later). I'm having a completely different vision of things now and my OP is almost irrelevant now as it addressed a symptom rather than the root of my concern.

quote:
Another thing could be synastry: maybe the synastry you get with people isn't ideal.

Ah, yes. Being into astrology has its downsides. I know that all too well.

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brontex:
The way I see it, limted experience lends itself to limited opinions and limited options. Not the other way around.

Interesting thought.

quote:
You might even find that things you thought you wanted aren't really all that important after all, and that the whole often really is greater than the sum of the parts. When you stop writing other people off for their imperfections, odd are you'll stop caring so much about your own.

I wonder if it's not the other way around.
For instance, I am much more critical of myself than others. Perhaps it's a sort of projection.

As for the first part of your post, it doesn't apply to me, but I can see how it could work for some people.

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by athenegoddess:
I can say that the way you treat others is how you will be treated. So as long as you judge others by their looks people will judge you.

I think I may have worded my OP incorrectly.

At any rate, I mentioned this before but I'm thinking about something slightly different now that I believe explains the things I mentioned in my OP.

It goes deeper than that, as Ami mentioned.

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 11:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
In either case, I'd think finding something not based on your appearance to feel good about yourself would be very helpful here. That is find something else to care about and pursue that for awhile instead. Though it's difficult for many women (given how they were raised) some do it and they seem happier for it...and by following their own passion (goals in life) they actually meet the right person rather than some jerk who approaches her looking for his next conquest and can be much more desirable to the said person as a kindred spirit rather than just looking pretty.

That's a very good point, and resonates with me a lot. I knew it all along but it's nice to have someone validate it again.

quote:
And you did ask for insights on how to change so I threw that out there.

Thank you for your replies.
You certainly are right about the industry and the effect it has on people.
I can't truly blame it, however. I am aware of the fact that I have the power to work on myself and adjust my thoughts and beliefs. It's up to me to change.

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by aquaguy91:
I think you have to be atleast somewhat physically attracted to someone if you are going to have a sexual/romantic relationship with them. With that being said it's bad to have expectations that are too high. I think the secret is to find someone who you share a connection with and looks ok to you. I think it's possible for their looks to grow on you over time. But it's definitely a big mistake to try and get with someone you are not attracted to at all. I have been there and done that, It didn't work and she ended up getting hurt really bad.

I agree with you.

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 12:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
So, I think whether you are being shallow or not, depends on what you are judging their appearance against, and for what informational purpose.

Thanks for replying.

Interesting thoughts.

I don't consciously judge others based on their appearance. I simply find people unattractive most of the time, especially men (sorry if that sounds offensive).

But come to think of it, it's probably because of my own self-image. I'd go as far as to say that it's a defense mechanism against closeness. Am I going too far with this? I can't tell. But I know there's something else at play here, and I feel like it's being covered by a misguided focus on appearance. It's a way of concealing the underlying issues that I struggle with.

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 12:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
I think the question is more about deeper issues such as one's worth. I say that from experience because that would be the only way to know it lol

See, someone else could think that it has little to do with the topic at hand, but I believe in my case it applies. That's not all there is to it, but it does include some of that.

It makes me think of many different things that are all inter-connected (in my psyche).

I don't feel like getting into that here because it'd be too revealing and it's a very touchy subject (especially for myself).


At any rate, the OP was misleading, but all of the replies here have made me gain awareness on the actual problem(s).
It's not that I didn't know it already, but real self-awareness is not easy to reach and even harder to maintain. So I needed those external opinions to help me see myself more clearly.

Thanks all.

I feel like further comments on the topic of looks/appearance will now be counter-productive (to me) but feel free to continue the discussion.

Sorry if this seems hard to understand or slightly erratic.

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Ami Anne
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posted August 11, 2014 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is cool Doux. I am glad the thread helped and I send hugs to you, my Friend

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Doux Rêve
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posted August 11, 2014 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Ami.

I actually got triggered so it was like, "abort mission! abort mission!" in my mind, lol... Hence the hasty "let's not talk about this anymore" remark. Tsk tsk.


eta. This whole thing got kind of messy. Woops.

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