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Author Topic:   When Does a Human Life Begin?
rajji
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posted August 16, 2014 11:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rajji     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Here are 17 selections of times at which a biologist might argue a human organism is alive. I’ll save my preference for the end.Which one would YOU choose?

1. Life is a continuum. Gametes (sperm and oocyte) link generations.

2. The germline. As oocytes and sperm form, their imprints – epigenetic changes from the parents’ genomes – are lifted.

3. The fertilized ovum. Of the hundreds of sperm surviving the swim upstream to the oocyte, one jettisons its tail and nuzzles inside the much larger cell, which obligingly becomes an ovum, completing its own meisosis. A fertilized ovum = conception.

4. Pronuclei merge, within 12 hours. After fertilization, the packets of DNA from male and female — the pronuclei — approach, merge, and the intermingling chromosomes pair and part, as the first mitotic division looms. A new human genome forms. Following that first division, some genes from the new genome are accessed to make proteins, but maternal transcripts still dominate development.

5. Cleavage. Divisions ensue. The cells of an 8-celled embryo (day 3) have not yet committed to becoming part of the embryo “proper” (one with layers) or the supportive membranes. Such a cell can still, on its own, develop. An 8-celled embryo whose cells are teased apart could lead to an octomom situation.

6. Day 5. The new genome takes over as maternal transcripts are depleted. The inner cell mass (icm) separates from the hollow ball of cells and takes up residence on the interior surface. It will become the embryo proper, distinguishing itself from the remaining part of the ball fated to become the extra-embryonic membranes. The icm is what all the fuss about human embryonic stem (hES) cells is about — the stem cells aren’t the icm cells, but are cultured from them.

7. End of the first week. The embryo implants in the uterine lining.

8. Day 16. The gastrula. Tissue layers form, first the ectoderm and endoderm, then the sandwich filling, the mesoderm. Each layer gives rise to specific body parts.

9. Day 14. The primitive streak forms, classically the first sign of a nervous system and when some nations set the deadline for no longer using human embryos in experiments.

10. Day 18. The heart beats.

11. Day 28. The neural tube closes, within which the notochord, preliminary to the spinal cord, will form, while the bulge at the top will come to house the brain. If the tube doesn’t close completely, a neural tube defect (anencephaly, spina bifida, and a few others) results.

12. End of week 8. The embryo becomes a fetus, all structures present in rudimentary form.

13. Week 14 or thereabouts. “Quickening,” the flutter a woman feels in her abdomen that will progress to squirms and kicks from within.

14. Week 22. A fetus has a chance of becoming a premature baby if delivered.

15. Birth.

16. Puberty. The Darwinian definition of what matters on a population and species level, when reproduction becomes possible.

17. Acceptance into medical school. I don’t know where this came from, a joke about Jewish mothers, but in some circles it might now apply to acceptance into preschool. Or when one’s grown offspring leave home.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted August 18, 2014 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is an interesting question.

Well, we know that the baby receives information whilst in the womb. Studies have shown that the mother's mental health affects the baby. If the mother is stressed, the baby can be born with higher than average levels of cortisol, which can increase their sensitivity to stress once born.

So, I would say definitely prior to birth.

I think the brain would have to be able to receive information from the environment in order to construct "experience". Life = experience.

However, if we are talking simply biology, without conscious awareness of experience, then it would be the heart beating - the engine of the human body is operational.

My personal opinion though is that in order for life to have meaning for the foetus in retrospect, it would start whenever the brain is developed enough to receive and process info from the environment.
It is these processes that we know create neurological maps on the brain that affect the human later on.

Of course, there will be much we do not know yet.

IF, however, this is a moral question, and not simply for the purposes of personal development, I would say conception is the beginning of life.

From which stance are you asking the question Rajji?

- Moral? Biological? Experiential?

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Barbiegirl19
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posted August 18, 2014 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The moment the sperm hits that egg and you become pregnant. I don't care what scientist say about it not being a baby yet, it is imo.

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Ami Anne
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posted August 18, 2014 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
The moment the sperm hits that egg and you become pregnant. I don't care what scientist say about it not being a baby yet, it is imo.

Yep! I agree with Barbie.

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Yin
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posted August 18, 2014 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's at exactly the same time an animal life begins.

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KarkaQueen
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posted August 18, 2014 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KarkaQueen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Yep! I agree with Barbie.


Oh lord. Don't tell me both of you are against aborting a child when its in the case of rape, incest, or accidental.

Week 14 or Week 22 is when the soul becomes attached to the body

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aquaguy91
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posted August 18, 2014 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KarkaQueen:
Oh lord. Don't tell me both of you are against aborting a child when its in the case of rape, incest, or accidental.

Week 14 or Week 22 is when the soul becomes attached to the body



Well God has a reason for everything. A child coming from such seemingly tragic circumstances could be exactly what the woman needs and a blessing in disguise. I do not believe in abortion, it's evil.

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Barbiegirl19
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posted August 18, 2014 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Well God has a reason for everything. A child coming from such seemingly tragic circumstances could be exactly what the woman needs and a blessing in disguise. I do not believe in abortion, it's evil.

Exactly! and if it's that serious the baby could be given up for adoption. There are a number of different alternatives.

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Ami Anne
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posted August 18, 2014 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think any child should be aborted. It is not the child's fault how he was conceived. I think every life is precious, no matter if it was conceived in the worst of circumstances.

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Lexxigramer
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posted August 18, 2014 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lexxigramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Taken from old posts of mine.
No sense in retyping it all again.
_________________________________________
I have had dozens of miscarriages.
Fortunately most were before 12 weeks.
The ones at 16 to 20 weeks brought me much grief because I felt/sensed/knew someone was indeed "home".
Until quickening I sensed no "mind touches", no dreams that were not mine.
After 12 weeks or so,
and AT 13 weeks I did KNOW the soul had arrived.
The quoted sections contain pregnancy/miscarriage facts.
quote:
Although miscarriage is very common, for the majority of women the cause of their miscarriage will remain unknown. http://www.birth.com.au/Info.asp?class=6620&page=1%3CHR%3E%3C/BLOCKQUOTE%3E%3CB%3E%3C I%3E

Imagine the madness or confusion,
and the agony a soul would experience...
if it moved into the body before 12 weeks or so....
and its body died and was miscarried.

With miscarriage rates averaging by some [b]estimates at 20% to even 50% or even much higher BEFORE 12 WEEKS.....

Well it is simply not logical that a soul would normally move in at such a dangerous and potentially unstable time before the embryo becomes a foetus.

Some more miscarriage information excerpts:

quote:
Determining the prevalence of miscarriage is difficult. Many miscarriages happen very early in the pregnancy,
before a woman may know she is pregnant.
Treatment of women with miscarriage at home means medical statistics on miscarriage miss many cases.
Prospective studies using very sensitive early pregnancy tests have found that
25% of pregnancies are miscarried by the sixth week LMP (since the woman's Last Menstrual Period)
.
Clinical miscarriages (those occurring after the sixth week LMP) occur in 8% of pregnancies.

The risk of miscarriage decreases sharply after the 10th week LMP, i.e. when the fetal stage begins.
The loss rate between 8.5 weeks LMP and birth is about two percent;
loss is “virtually complete by the end of the embryonic period."

The prevalence of miscarriage increases considerably with age of the parents.
One study found that pregnancies from men younger than twenty-five years are 40% less likely to
end in miscarriage than pregnancies from men 25-29 years.
The same study found that pregnancies from men older than forty years
are 60% more likely to end in miscarriage than the 25-29 year age group.
Another study found that the increased risk of miscarriage
in pregnancies from older men is mainly seen in the first trimester.
Yet another study found an increased risk in women, by the age of forty-five, on the order of 800%
(compared to the 20-24 age group in that study), 75% of pregnancies ended in miscarriage.
for more information see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage
About 80% of miscarriages will occur before 12 weeks.
It is estimated that about 15 to 20% of known pregnancies will end in miscarriage.
This statistic is often received with surprise and shock,
equally because of its high prevalence as well as how little it is acknowledged and talked about openly.
While a miscarriage can happen at any time during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy,
they more commonly occur around the times the woman's subsequent periods would have been due.
That is around 4, 8 and 12 and 16 weeks of the pregnancy.

Reasons for miscarriage

During the first 12 weeks of pregnancy an intricate and complicated process takes place
as the woman's egg is fertilised and the baby implants, develops and grows.
It is thought that up to 50% of miscarriages are due to a spontaneous genetic or structural abnormality in the baby,
with most of these occurring at the time of fertilization
.
This can cause the new baby not to develop properly, or to die after only a few weeks of the pregnancy.
If the baby does not continue to thrive and grow,
in most cases the woman's body will naturally expel the baby through miscarriage.
It is for this reason that many people believe miscarriage to be 'Nature's way'
of ending a pregnancy that would otherwise have led to a baby being born with major abnormalities.

Although miscarriage is very common, for the majority of women the cause of their miscarriage will remain unknown.
http://www.birth.com.au/Info.asp?class=6620&page=1
Miscarriage rates estimate that as many as one in five pregnancies (or 20%) end in natural miscarriage.
Some are even willing to put this number as high as 50%
because so many early miscarriages happen before a woman even realizes she is pregnant.
Early pregnancy loss is most likely to occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.
http://www.birth.com.au/Info.asp?class=6620&page=1%3CHR%3E%3C/BLOCKQUOTE%3E%3CB%3E%3C I%3E


I know too about the disappearing twin syndrome personally.
The ultrasound revealed 2 embryos at 9 weeks. Then by 11 1/2 weeks one was reabsorbed.
I know too in another of my pregnancies, about losing one twin at 11 weeks..by actual bloody miscarriage and testing proving it was miscarried...and not sensing a soul presence yet in either...then to feel/sense a soul in the surviving twin which lived in me until 13 weeks...then died. I felt its agony.

Testing showed no abnormalities in either twin.
My fibroids killed them and placental insufficiency, and luteal phase defect.
And I grieved even for the ones lost before 12 weeks...never having a soul yet, only basic biological life.
I wonder who would have been born to me if I had not endured so many miscarriages.
And still births. A nightmare.
To have a moving, soul bearing being within one's womb, from 12 weeks onward, to feel it, sense it, hear it, and to feel it die...it is a horrible thing to endure. To see its little dark dead form once "born"....It still brings me anguished memories seeing it lying so small and warm, then cold and dead in my hands.
Two times I experienced late ones like that.
Another time another one died inside of my womb at 16 weeks but I did not expel the poor little corpse until 20 weeks.

I have experienced such things and feel I have a valid say on the issue.
And each time I read of abortions being done after 12 weeks, or even earlier, it hurt so bad because here I was wanting another child but others were getting rid of the potential child.

So basically in my opinion and experience;
human life begins with the quickening;
at about 12 weeks
when the foetus is developed enough to attract a soul and is less likely to be miscarried as 30% or even more are.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted August 18, 2014 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by aquaguy91:

Well God has a reason for everything. A child coming from such seemingly tragic circumstances could be exactly what the woman needs and a blessing in disguise. I do not believe in abortion, it's evil.[/B]


*Could* being the operative word, Aquaguy.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted August 18, 2014 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lexx,

I can feel the pain in your post.
I am so, so sorry you and your babies went through this.

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Lexxigramer
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posted August 18, 2014 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lexxigramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Lexx,

I can feel the pain in your post.
I am so, so sorry you and your babies went through this.


Thank you.

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Barbiegirl19
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posted August 18, 2014 02:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lexx I'm so sorry for your number of losses. I too have had 2 miscarriages myself so I absolutely relate. I look at both of them as blessings from God. My time will come, I'm just taking it all one day at a time.

A baby is a baby regardless of what 'stage' it's in imo.

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Lexxigramer
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posted August 18, 2014 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lexxigramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh additionally;
12 weeks into a pregnancy coincides with the
the sun being astrologically in the opposite sign that a full term baby would be born in.
I was a premmie and feel that my soul "moved in to my body" when the sun was in Cancer, and I was supposed to be a Capricorn.
I am a Scorpio but due to being a premmie;
my opposite sign is not Taurus like a Scorpio born full term would be.
So in my point of view one's zodiac sign supports the 12 week quickening (soul coming in to a foetal body)theory.

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Barbiegirl19
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posted August 18, 2014 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think regardless of whether a person was premature or not whatever sign you are is what you were meant to be. We are all here for a reason, no one born on this planet is useless or meaningless. Miscarriages and fetal death happens for a reason.

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Ami Anne
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posted August 18, 2014 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Lexx,

I can feel the pain in your post.
I am so, so sorry you and your babies went through this.


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Want To Ask Any Question About Bible Prophecy? Go For it. It is Free, of course.


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athenegoddess
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posted August 18, 2014 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for athenegoddess     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is also other ways besides abortions now that one can get rid of an unwanted pregnancy.

Take plan B right after sex.

And others.

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KarkaQueen
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posted August 18, 2014 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KarkaQueen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Poor Lexi. I still feel that you carry many of these pains to this day. My heart goes out for you deeply.


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Barbiegirl19
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posted August 18, 2014 04:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by athenegoddess:
There is also other ways besides abortions now that one can get rid of an unwanted pregnancy.

Take plan B right after sex.

And others.


Or just don't lay down and have sex. If you can have sex then you can deal with the responsibilities that come with it.

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Ami Anne
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posted August 18, 2014 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Or just don't lay down and have sex. If you can have sex then you can deal with the responsibilities that come with it.

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mercuranian
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posted August 18, 2014 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mercuranian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what about a young girl who gets pregnant through incest / rape?

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Barbiegirl19
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posted August 18, 2014 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We already talked about that subject.

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athenegoddess
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posted August 18, 2014 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for athenegoddess     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are already enough children on earth who aren't cared for properly.

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Barbiegirl19
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posted August 18, 2014 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What's that supposed to mean? We just murder off the ones that didn't ask to born and/or created?

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