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Author Topic:   No Indictment Is So Devastating
ariestaurus
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posted November 25, 2014 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ariestaurus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
I'm just so sick of the cop outs of blaming current issues and situations on past (slavery, segregation, etc) circumstances, in which many incredible speakers and activist fought for and succeeded in creating equality. I mean what more do people want? Money, free taxes, free schooling?

We are in 2014, the world has changed and continues to change. It's the *blank on blank* crimes that need to be addressed and changed. Everyone hates each other and aren't willing to fix the problem. That's the issue and what needs to be fixed and focused on first.

*Meaning gang vs gang, same race vs still same race, homosexuals vs straights and so on.


Segregation still exists, but in different forms. It plainly exists in Ferguson.

"As black families moved into Ferguson, the whites fled. In 1980, the town was 85 percent white and 14 percent black; by 2010, it was 29 percent white and 69 percent black. But blacks did not gain political power as their numbers grew. The mayor and the police chief are white, as are five of the six City Council members. The school board consists of six white members and one Hispanic. As Mr. Gordon explains, many black residents, lacking the wealth to buy property, move from apartment to apartment and have not put down political roots.

The disparity is most evident in the Ferguson Police Department, of which only three of 53 officers are black. The largely white force stops black residents far out of proportion to their population, according to statistics kept by the state attorney general. Blacks account for 86 percent of the traffic stops in the city, and 93 percent of the arrests after those stops. Similar problems exist around St. Louis County, where earlier this year the state chapter of the N.A.A.C.P. filed a federal civil rights complaint alleging widespread racial profiling by police departments." http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/13/opinion/racial-history-behind-the-ferguson-protest s.html

How in the f uck has equality succeeded?

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PisceanDream
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posted November 25, 2014 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PisceanDream     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
Ok, I actually trust "arguing" with you. If that makes sense. You're my friend and a good enough one that I think we both respect each other enough, to be adults. I guess that's what I mean.

I think there's a healthy way and unhealthy way to both extremes.
So for example, I ignore race enough that I don't pay attention to it whatsoever when it comes to Barbie. It's [b]never
come up, ever, in our relationship during disagreements or things of that nature. We know it's there, of course, but it plays no role whatsoever and it's never used as an excuse to any differences that we may otherwise have.
However, on the same token, when we go out and about. We are FULLY aware that some other people may not really be accepting that we are different races. I personally remain aware that a person of a different race may not like me based on my race. I remain aware that they may question, or even assume that I don't like them based on race. I do promote awareness. However, I do not promote letting it alter your behavior. In other words, if I encounter a stranger who accuses me of racism or treats me differently in some way based on my race. It is not my obligation to return the favor. I think even in the face of racism towards me, it is my obligation to continue to treat them as I would anyone else. That even in the face of it, I will acknowledge it in a rational way, in a way that lets the other person know that I disagree and that race is not the issue that I have with them.
It's important to remain aware, and what I particularly don't like is the unapproachable feel that racism creates. Even among people who are not racist. We don't immediately know who is or who is not. The way I treat it is with internal awareness, but external blindness. So, I approach all that I encounter who are of a different race, religion, or anything in an open manner. Even if I feel that restraint inside that this person might be racist. I at least provide them the opportunity to prove me wrong. I think this is very key in breaking these barriers. Further, if they do respond, even through ignoring me or I get those "vibes" from their response or lack of, then my work is not done. Ignoring them or letting it get to me is not the answer to me.
I feel like THAT is the time to really hold my ground and not change my attitude. A subtle message to them that "hey, you're not going to drive me away with racism. Give me an opportunity and I'll prove you wrong."
"Kill them with kindness"... kind of thing.
Well, I hope that makes sense.
This is my approach. I could probably go on forever really. I have so many thoughts, as you know. [/B]


LOL I know we can have a healthy discussion on this.

I guess, the idea is to maintain an awareness and conscientiousness of everyone's epistemic position. It's one thing to not let race interfere with how you judge and receive others, but it's another to pretend that race doesn't exist in what seems like a choice to be willfully ignorant of problems of race that unfortunately exist.

It's not only about history but it's the fact that the black/white, us/them, same/other dynamics are still at play at this very moment. The difference is that it used to be explicit and institutionalized racism, now it's implicit and systematic racism.

I know you're not racist, of course but, my point is that those who insist that the situation in Ferguson is not only a problem of race but also racialized are not wrong. It's just impossible to critique the shooting of Michael Brown without questions of race coming to the forefront and it's not because people blame everything on race but because it is a perpetuation of racist dynamics. This isn't only a question of why Michael Brown was being shot, but it raises a even broader, bigger and more relevant question: that of police brutality against blacks, particularly men. I can list sooooo many things that have happened within the past few months where police officers have used excessive force against blacks.

This is nothing new and is only getting worse. It's sad because blacks are always viewed as occupying a space of criminality. There are so many excellent critical race theories on these kinds of issues. It's a lot more complex than one thinks.

I disagree with anyone who thinks the Wilson/Brown case has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with race.

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ariesdragon
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posted November 25, 2014 03:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ariesdragon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did he need to get shot that many times?!

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Ami Anne
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posted November 25, 2014 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Segregation still exists, but in different forms

There are ways in America to have the American dream. That is what the focus should be, not on hate.

Hate will breed violence which is bad for everyone.

Leaders should be encouraging every person to know that in America, anyone can be successful.

This has always been the case but now the opportunities are greatly lessened which is a whole new subject.

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Barbiegirl19
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posted November 25, 2014 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Regardless of where you stand on the lack of an indictment, the following is irreputable.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ne ws/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/22/report-autopsy-analysis-shows-michael-brown-may-have-gone-for-darren-wilsons-gun/

(1) Brown stole cigarillos from a neighborhood bodega.

(2) Brown had marijuana in his bloodstream.

(3) Brown walked down the middle of the road of Canfield Drive.

(4) Brown's blood was found on Wilson's gun, indicating a wound from a close proximity point blank shot.

(5) Brown's DNA was found inside the police SUV, again indicating an initial close proximity shooting.

From the above facts, I would surmize:

(a) one shouldn't be a thug.

(b) if one were a thug, one really ought not to be arrogant enough to walk down the middle of a street after robbing a bodega.

(c) one ought not to be a stupid mofo and stick one's hands into a police cruiser when told to halt, and one ought to use best judgment when a cop has a loaded gun pointed in one's direction.

In addition, one would be a stupid fool to vandalize and loot one own's neighborhood in anger. Why not just take it out on the rich neighborhood instead? One's children and oneself may need to eat at that McDonalds - probably the source of cheap food - that was just trashed the next day. When angry, one ought to consider making the rich white folk suffer instead of trashing the businesses of your own ethnic group. I would make parallels to primates, but that would be insulting to the intelligence of primates.

Back to being a thug... If one aspires to be a thug, being one on Wall Street appears to be a much more enrichening enterprise.

Just telling it like I see it.


Your post is gold and quite hilarious.
The truth hurts but it is the truth.
Nice to see you around, YTA.

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Ami Anne
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posted November 25, 2014 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ian is right but people are afraid to say it!

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ariestaurus
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posted November 25, 2014 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ariestaurus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PisceanDream:
LOL I know we can have a healthy discussion on this.

I guess, the idea is to maintain an awareness and conscientiousness of everyone's epistemic position. It's one thing to not let race interfere with how you judge and receive others, but it's another to pretend that race doesn't exist in what seems like a choice to be willfully ignorant of problems of race that unfortunately exist.

It's not only about history but it's the fact that the black/white, us/them, same/other dynamics are still at play at this very moment. The difference is that it used to be explicit and institutionalized racism, now it's implicit and systematic racism.

I know you're not racist, of course but, my point is that those who insist that the situation in Ferguson is not only a problem of race but also racialized are not wrong. It's just impossible to critique the shooting of Michael Brown without questions of race coming to the forefront and it's not because people blame everything on race but because it is a perpetuation of racist dynamics. This isn't only a question of why Michael Brown was being shot, but it raises a even broader, bigger and more relevant question: that of police brutality against blacks, particularly men. I can list sooooo many things that have happened within the past few months where police officers have used excessive force against blacks.

This is nothing new and is only getting worse. It's sad because blacks are always viewed as occupying a space of criminality. There are so many excellent critical race theories on these kinds of issues. It's a lot more complex than one thinks.

I disagree with anyone who thinks the Wilson/Brown case has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with race.


Agree with you wholeheartedly. I chuckle when people say, "Slavery was abolished decades ago! See? No more racism!"

These people deny systemic racism exists. While some laws have changed, attitudes have not.

The media is to blame, as well; news stations reinforce damaging racial stereotypes.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/bill-quigley/14-shocking-facts-that-prove-us-criminal-justice-system-is-racist

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DeepFreeze
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posted November 25, 2014 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeepFreeze     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm smelling what you're dumping.

However... I'm feeling too lazy.

I do understand. It kind of feels like... An aquariun viewpoint to me. Bigger picture. A view of the complex dynamics of racism as a whole and their role in this particular incident.
I feel ya.
I'm pretty sure....

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Ami Anne
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posted November 25, 2014 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agree with you wholeheartedly. I chuckle when people say, "Slavery was abolished decades ago! See? No more racism!"

There will always be racism as long as there is a human nature which tends toward hate but burning and looting won't make it go away.

It hurts everyone---EVERYONE, most of all the people doing it!

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BellaFenice
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posted November 25, 2014 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BellaFenice     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PisceanDream:
This is nothing new and is only getting worse. It's sad because blacks are always viewed as occupying a space of criminality. There are so many excellent critical race theories on these kinds of issues. It's a lot more complex than one thinks.

I disagree with anyone who thinks the Wilson/Brown case has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with race.


Yup, and calling them thugs (which is racist) only adds to this characterization. Didn't realize racism was hilarious.

@Ariestaurus: ITA!

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PisceanDream
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posted November 25, 2014 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PisceanDream     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:

Back to being a thug... If one aspires to be a thug, being one on Wall Street appears to be a much more enrichening enterprise.

Just telling it like I see it.


So, according to what you're saying... If you're a "thug" you deserve to be shot and killed? Lovely.

Profiting millions under the inhumane exploitation of "cheap labor" is an enrichening enterprise? I would rather be a small time thug than one who squanders the weak and poor as a result of a nasty and insatiable level of greed. 99.99% of western discourse is a detriment to the progression of humanity.

I'll leave the 0.01% to critical race and gender theorists.

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ariestaurus
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posted November 25, 2014 03:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ariestaurus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
[b]Agree with you wholeheartedly. I chuckle when people say, "Slavery was abolished decades ago! See? No more racism!"

There will always be racism as long as there is a human nature which tends toward hate but burning and looting won't make it go away.

It hurts everyone---EVERYONE, most of all the people doing it!

[/B]


Where did I say looting and burning was okay?

I believe in the MLK and Gandhi techniques: NON-VIOLENT RESISTANCE

Violence solves nothing.

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Barbiegirl19
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posted November 25, 2014 03:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I feel very sad for both families involved. No one should have to go through this, but unfortunately they did. Life goes on. Prevention is key in this case.

Looking forward to when this boils down and the next big thing happens.

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PisceanDream
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posted November 25, 2014 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PisceanDream     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ariestaurus:
[B] Agree with you wholeheartedly. I chuckle when people say, "Slavery was abolished decades ago! See? No more racism!"

These people deny systemic racism exists. While some laws have changed, attitudes have not.]


It's called "culpable ignorance"! Implicit racism has explicit consequences. Why can't people see that?

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Ami Anne
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posted November 25, 2014 04:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Implicit racism has explicit consequences. Why can't people see that?

The leadership now encourages violence. MLK would never do that.

The root out of racism is economic but this current political system is making economic advancement impossible.

If people are well off, they can eschew racism.

It will always be there in this fallen world but they don't have to be as affected by it.

That is the key--a piece of America for everyone, not hatred.

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Ami Anne
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posted November 25, 2014 04:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The one group that I have seen as the most color blind( or any division blind) is the true Born again Christian of which MLK was one.

I have seen THE most evil people call themselves Christian, so one has to look beyond the label now.

Within the true Born Again Christian community is the answer for racism.

We are all equal under God's love. That is it!

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Randall
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posted November 25, 2014 05:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The rioting isn't about justice. It's about having an excuse to steal a tv. Every one of the rioters should be put in prison.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted November 25, 2014 05:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PisceanDream:
So, according to what you're saying... If you're a "thug" you deserve to be shot and killed? Lovely.

I said no such thing.

I said that one really shouldn't be a thug.

Period. Indeed, I'm unsympathetic to thugs, whether they wear suits or wear their pants around their knees. In my mind, there are no instances where being a thug is excusable.

Was Brown a thug? Probably.

Was Wilson a thug? The Grand Jury found no probable cause.

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Ami Anne
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posted November 25, 2014 05:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
The rioting isn't about justice. It's about having an excuse to steal a tv. Every one of the rioters should be put in prison.

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Randall
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posted November 25, 2014 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looters are criminals. Any political message gets lost in the translation among arson and terroristic acts.

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Ami Anne
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posted November 25, 2014 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it is really good we can have this discussion.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted November 25, 2014 06:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It all started with a bully not paying for a box of crappy cigarillos. What's that? A neighborhood convenience store oppressing a minority? How do you justify that?

Oh, I forgot. Using the term "thug" is racist. How about a "buffoon law-infringing criminal?" There you go. Much better.

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Barbiegirl19
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posted November 25, 2014 06:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barbiegirl19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
It all started with a bully not paying for a box of crappy cigarillos. What's that? A neighborhood convenience store oppressing a minority? How do you justify that?

Exactly, it just goes to show that Michael Brown is not and has never been what the media has portrayed him to be. He's not a law abiding citizen, instead he's a criminal from the hood with no sense of authority. It's awful that he had to die that way but at the end of the day he did. He chose his own fate.

God bless the men and women who risk their lives for the safety of all citizens in America.

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BellaFenice
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posted November 25, 2014 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BellaFenice     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
It all started with a bully not paying for a box of crappy cigarillos. What's that? A neighborhood convenience store oppressing a minority? How do you justify that?

Oh, I forgot. Using the term "thug" is racist. How about a "buffoon law-infringing criminal?" There you go. Much better.


No one is saying Brown is completely innocent. We are arguing that he didn't need to be killed and the reason for his death traces back to systemic racism. The abrasive way in which you convey your arguments is very off-putting.

How do you justify a black man being killed every 28 hours?

How do you justify Eric Garner's death?

How do you justify Traevon Martin's death?

How do you justify the legal system reflecting the norms of the elite and dominant group?

The class and racial disparities in American law and punishment are not accidents: they protect the dominant and in-group interests to the disadvantage of the minorities. The most sad thing of all? Not only does this promote violence against the minorities, it fuels internalized self-hate and shame to where individuals turn against his or her race and accept the rules of systemic racism.

Black people are disproportionately incarcerated, receive longer sentences than white people, and subjected to harassment by the system. Yale University has found evidence lower income Black families are denied complete rights of citizenship by an intrusive legal system. Being black means you are criminal; being White means you are judged as innocent and harmless.

Researchers at Stanford University have published studies demonstrating white people have been deeply taught to ingrain Black people with crime that influences racially-biased outcomes of racially biased sentencing. Chicago University has reported white police officers are influenced by racial bias during decision-making when and if to shoot a Black man.

African-Americans are more likely to be stopped and frisked Because police see black communities and resident as threats, they are much more likely to use violent tactics against them. Black men now have to worry about being one bullet away from becoming a hashtag.

The killing of innocent Black men (and women who do not get any sort of care) is a human rights issue, not simply just racism. Everyone should give a shi.t about this because the treatment of Black men is just a preview of what a newly militarized police system can do to all American citizens in the future. NO one chooses to die; but people choose to kill. You were put here to protect us, but who is going to protect us from you.

I will never support a system that kills innocent people, throws tear gas, or threatens reporters for speaking out. You can either either be a part of the systemic racist undertones, or you can speak out and make a difference.

Science my friends, is a gift. Never underestimate the power of knowledge.

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PisceanDream
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posted November 25, 2014 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PisceanDream     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@Bella

Thank you. Excellent post.

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