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Author
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Topic: Abortions
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The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 15, 2004 12:19 PM
 
Someone asked me a question regarding abortion in the 'The brutal truth behind the crushed eggs' forum and I replied there, which was a rather lengthy one. I wonder what you guys think about this issue. In 'Love Signs', Linda stated clearly that she was anti-abortion, but in her subsequent book 'Star Signs' she gave a completely different viewpoint and did not explain clearly why her tone sounded so different from her previous one. I am too lazy to repeat what I typed in the 'The brutal truth behind the crushed eggs' section and so if you're interested, please take time to read my post in that forum (page 3) and respond to me here. What do you think about abortions? It's an issue we must confront.PS. I hope the argument over eggs is over now, since I really don't mind whether you think it's right to consume them or not. At least they are not meat. But personally, as I've said before, I wouldn't touch them. ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
quiksilver
Moderator Posts: 407
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted March 15, 2004 10:45 PM
Hi Dana,
There's a whole string (including many of my own postings) on this issue under "Universal Truths", entitled, "L.G. contradicts herself. Check it out  IP: Logged |
quiksilver
Moderator Posts: 407
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted March 15, 2004 11:34 PM
oops... i meant to say "universal codes"!!IP: Logged |
bases loaded
Knowflake Posts: 271
From: Havana, Cuba
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted March 17, 2004 06:45 PM
Is it right to think that the life begins after the first breath?THiS IS A REAL STORY:
A young girl, about 10 or 12 years old, who was studying music, received a stave to practice, as a routine exercise. She had several days to study that piece of music, a non famous one. She read the title, and it hadn´t been seen by her before. "This will be a little difficult for me", she thought. At home, she was ready to start the practice. She opened the stave, took her instrument, and played... but the music, after a few seconds of playing, was already causing a singular feeling to her: she DID KNOW that music. How could it be possible? She did not use to go to the concerts, and her habitual music in cassette was pop and techno, not classic. The experience was really unusual, and she had to tell her mum about it when she came home from the shop. The mother took the stave, read the title and smiled. Then she said: "How many years since I played this score the last time..! This is a fragment, but for me it was necessary to practice the entire work for several months, during my pregnancy, and now I can see that you were enjoying the music too, from inside, where you were then”. Now she placed the stave back on the music stand and said: “I played for you once, and it would be great if you play that music for me now. Would you play for me, please?” The girl started playing, and a wet smile (due to the tears) appeared on their faces. The work had not been created by a famous author, but for the mother and her daughter it seemed to be a celestial music. Bases Loaded
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The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 17, 2004 07:21 PM
There are heated debates located at Universal Codes, entitled 'L. G. contradicts herself'.Thank you for the story. The beginning of life and abortion are issues about life and death and we are still at the very start, searching for the truth...I have been against abortion...(though under certain circumstances it has to be permitted) but now I am not so sure...I'm still looking for an answer. ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
trillian
Moderator Posts: 2433
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted March 18, 2004 09:50 AM
That was specific karma for a mother and daughter, and a beautiful story, thank you.Perhaps it is specific karma for some souls to experience abortion, from both the mother and child perspective. Life and Death are a piece of a part of a whole. Perhaps the perception of separation is only an illusion. After all, death is only sad for those of us left behind. If we truly believe that the process of leaving the body manifest into Spirit is a beautiful thing, an entrance into a better place, then dying isn't so bad, is it?  IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 18, 2004 10:07 AM
According to 'Conversations with God', after you die, you experience peace and joy.But dying is one thing, killing is another. But is abortion killing? Is the embryo/foetus considered alive? More questions to be asked, I suppose... ~~~Keep searching for the truth and the light ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
TINK
Knowflake Posts: 943
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted March 18, 2004 10:45 AM
That's a very nice story Bases. And I believe that sort of thing happens all the time. The body is being formed while in the womb and is most certainly susceptible to outside influences. However this does not mean that the spirit has taken possesion of the body. I still believe that happens at the moment of first breath. The definition of "alive" for me includes the spirit, not just the body.And I think trillian is right. Everything under the sun must be experienced. Good and bad. This is not to say that abortion is a nice thing. Even under the best of circumstances it is difficult. Stealing, cheating and lying are not nice things either but they are not killing. When woman are made to believe that they have "killed their child" it makes a painful situation that much more so. Shame on those who instill unnecessary guilt. As for the insensitive, irresponsible woman who casually use abortion as a form of birth control well, that's another matter(and I don't believe there are as many of them out there as the anti-choice folks would have you think - it's NOT a pleasant operation). They are certainly commiting a dasterdly deed but again not murder. I hesitate to delve into deep karmic waters but perhaps someday they will find out what it is like to be unable to concieve. Where else would toying with the powers of creation lead but to an inability to create? IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Moderator Posts: 1568
From: sleepy Rocky Mountain village
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted March 18, 2004 11:29 AM
yeah... I echo TINK on this one..
I have yet to meet a healthy woman who had an abortion lightly. It is a truamatic experience.
The only woman I have met who has had multiple abortions due to carelessness was a sad, pathetic cokehead/alcoholic. She would have made a terrible mother and given birth to seriously wounded children.What's sad is that now she cleaned up and sober and wants to have kids she can't because her body was ravaged by all the abortions. Prolly for the best cause she's still mentally off-kilter.
I'd like to relate a story I read that pertains to this topic. It was published in a book called _Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom_ by Christiane Northrup MD, it was told to her by a Dr. McGarey-
"I can see that abortion is frequently reasonable, understandable, and the 'right' thing to do. The new light dawned with a story one of my patients told me some time ago. This mother had a four-year-old daughter, named Dorothy, whom she would take out to lunch occasionally. They were talking about this and that, and the child would shift from one subject to another, when Dorothy suddenly said, 'The last time I was a little girl, I had a different mommy!' The she started talking in a different language which her mother tried to record.
"The magic moment seemed over, but then Dorothy continued, 'But that wasn't the last time. Last time when I was four inches long and in your tummy, Daddy wasn't ready to marry you yet, so I went away. But then, I came back.' Then, the mother reported, the child went back to chatting about four-year-old matters.
"The mother was silent. No one but her husband, the doctor, and she had known this, but she had become pregnant about two years before she and her husband were ready to get married. She decided to have an abortion. She was ready to have the child, but her husband-to-be was not.
"When the two of them did get married and were ready to have their first child, the same entity made it's appearance. And the little child was saying, in effect, 'I don't hold any resentments toward you for having the abortion. I understood. I knew why it was done, and that's okay. So here I am again. It was an experience. I learned from it and you learned from it, so now, let's get on with the business of life.'"
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The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 18, 2004 11:41 AM
Harpyr, thank you for this amazing story...It's such a mystery, isn't it? The whole thing about life and death. Is an unborn child a robot (like Linda said in 'Star Signs') or a soul? According to the story, the embryo/foetus does have a soul! I mean, I'm just...I don't know what to say... I will keep searching~~~ :-) ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 18, 2004 12:30 PM
So I am asking myself: What would I do if I was pregnant and I found it an unwanted situation? What would I do?What a blessing it is that most women can have healthy children and have the opportunity to watch them grow up, experiencing childhood once again...what a blessing! Yet, many women take this for granted. If I was able to bear healthy children, I would NEVER have an abortion. ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Knowflake Posts: 526
From: North Carolina
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted March 18, 2004 12:48 PM
I don't think that because a spirit/mind/soul recalls the experience of an abortion that it necessarily means that they were connected to their fetal body-to-be. I really feel that before birth you are an observer of your own creation ... you watch over you mother while she is pregnant with you, sometimes even before ... while you are waiting for her to get pregnant since you've already chosen her There are accounts of tribal shamans who can see the spirits of babies to be born "hovering" around the body of the prospective mother ... just waiting. I feel that they keep waiting until their body is a viable vehicle for their survival. In other words, I don't think you move into your house while it is still under construction.
I had a slightly different understanding, I suppose, of the story that Harpyr posted. I thought it was a wonderful example of just how "unmurderous" an abortion really is. Understand that the child was speaking with a child's vocabulary ... the simplest way for her to have explained what she recalled was to say she had been "in" her mom's tummy ... I really don't think a 4 year old child would have the vocabulary to explain the difference. Note how she also said "... so I went away." That statement coming from an adult would imply motive and direct action on the part of that person, however, coming from a child it is easy to see that she did not mean that she initiated going "away" but rather understood why she could not be born at that time. It's an argument over semantics, I guess, but I think it is of some value.I also agree with Harpyr and Tink that the experience is very traumatic for a woman. I do not know any women who have had an abortion without going through major mental, emotional, and spiritual stress (aside from the obvious physical stress on her body) before AND after the surgery. It is not an easy thing to decide to do, and I certainly don't think it is something women do on a whim. The guilt felt afterwards dwarfs any I've ever encountered from other people. Perhaps one reason why the US has not approved the abortion "pill" is precisely the guilt factor and the unnecessary trauma of a surgery when there are other safe alternatives available. Aside from that, however, I think it is not necessarily in every child's best interest to be born when they are unwanted, or will not be able to have the adequate care and love they need. This may sound like a very detached argument from this point on, but I think it is a highly overlooked and underestimated point of view. Alot of women who decide to have abortions do so for financial reasons ... they simply cannot afford to have a child. Supposing women could no longer choose to have abortions, we would see either a vast increase in children placed in orphanages or an increase in the need for public funding for programs such as welfare and food stamps, etc. Of course, I'm sure the self-righteous pro-lifers (not all, I mean the ones who shoot doctors and burn down clinics as "life affirming" demonstrations, or those who think they are right in doing so) will take the burdens upon themselves and gladly adopt any number of the thousands of parentless children, or be willing to pay out of pocket for the needs of the families who are forced to have children but cannot bear to give them up.  Of course, there are also those children who will end up being born to mothers who have drug and/or mental problems or other serious health issues, or in families where they will be neglected or mistreated because their parents are either too busy working to feed a child they can't afford, or else they simply didn't want that child and will end up resenting it.
It is all too easy to look at these highly probable situations, point the finger and say that it's their own fault ... that they shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place.
I think it is quite obvious that women who decide to have abortions are well aware of the fact that they should not have gotten pregnant in the first place.
Is making blame the issue going to make the lives of unwanted, neglected, or mistreated children any better? I really, really don't think so. Does an ill-conceived idea of life beginning in the womb (and supported only by a surprisngly small number of "interest" groups and government officials) warrant the suffering of all the children who are going to be born under these circumstances? Again, I really don't think so. A related tangent:
All in all, I think this fixation on limiting women's rights, especially when it concerns something as personal as their own bodies, is just one sign that we are in (or just entering) a very tumultuous Aquarian Age. Remember Humpty Dumpty on the wall, and how the King's men couldn't heal him alone ... they couldn't (well, can't) do it without all the Queen's women. I don't think women will get very far if their rights continue to be witheld or taken away. More importantly, why are they being taken away? For what (arguably sinister) purpose? I think the abortion issue is a big test of our humanity, and so far, I don't think we are doing too well by claiming that women who choose to abort are murderers ... especially not when this erroneous idea has led to women who give birth to still borns (and which will probably move on to include miscarriages) are also being charged with murder.  IP: Logged |
TINK
Knowflake Posts: 943
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted March 18, 2004 07:42 PM
"I don't think you move into your house while it is still under construction" ditto ditto ditto The spirit can't manifest in an inadequate house. Isn't that why some of us die of disease or injury? The body, due to defect, was unable to support the soul. I would think that a fetus, due to incompletion, is also unable to support the soul.IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 19, 2004 07:48 AM
Interesting thinking...the Roman Catholic Church is being heavily challenged...------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Knowflake Posts: 526
From: North Carolina
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted March 19, 2004 08:21 AM
I think it's great that old views are being challenged if it means people have the right to form their own opinions, especially about their health and spirituality. I don't have a personal agenda against the Roman Catholic Church or anything (actually, I was raised Catholic, although I did walk away from that religion without any guilt) but I am in no way sorry that my beliefs, and the beliefs of countless other people all over the world, differ from theirs. I personally don't see why one religious group should have such a big say when it comes to laws that will be affecting people of any and all creeds, faiths, or beliefs, no matter how big that group is. There are, and have been for many, many years, people that believe vastly different things and I think their opinion on these matters is just as valid. IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 19, 2004 09:35 AM
:- )------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
spiria
Knowflake Posts: 146
From: big 'ol Tejas
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted March 19, 2004 12:56 PM
Eleanore, your post moved me deeply. I worked at a treatment center for abused and neglected kiddos for nearly two years. Now, I love each and every one of them and am glad to have had them in my life, but when I look at the stress and turmoil and rage and sadness their tiny bodies go through form the start...sure, you could argue it's their karma to start out that way, but I dunno, it seems unfair to lay such heavy things on anyone, but especially a child. I am talking about children raped by multiple members of their family at the same time, children left to sleep with rats on the floor who gnaw and scar their face, children made to watch their mortician parent defile corpses in a sexual manner. Sorry to be so harsh and explicit, but if their mothers had aborted instead of bringing their children into these horrendous situations, then perhaps their little souls could have started out differently, even with the same mothers under better circumstances. There are so many factors that weigh in per peron in regards to abortion. But I agree with you wholeheartedly that taking away women's rights in this issue is undermining and a "gateway" to undermining more of women's rights. The fact that women are gaining more positions of authority and starting to do more of what only men once did I think is threatening to some, and they start out with an already controversial issue to attack women with. Maybe then we should make it illegal for men to tie tubes if they are fit to be good fathers. Get my drift? Don't get me wrong, the idea of abortion saddens me deeply, I have a very close friend who went through it too. But I do think it can be a wise choice given the possibility of an unwanted child.
I am a walk away with no guilt Catholic as well. Actually, it was more like I struggled against it from the moment it was forced down my throat. Then finally I grew up more and stopped struggling and found my own truths and my own way. It's about time honored religions are challenged a bit. They are in dire need of some pruning and weeding. Nothing is perfect and infallible on this Earth, yet the greatest way to strive for perfection is through truth and justice, not control and illusions.IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 20, 2004 02:15 PM
According to Linda's lexigrams, the word 'abortions' contains the following:IT IS TORN. IT IS NOT BORN. IT IS NOT A SIN. ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
JustAmanda
Knowflake Posts: 363
From:
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted March 21, 2004 12:29 AM
Hmm...how interesting...and how ironic that had our own MOTHERS aborted US just because she believed that we were not REAL then we wouldn't even be here to discuss this!Abortion is MURDER. Plain and simple. It's not ok to eat an EGG because it's LIFE and meant to have been a chick...yet it's ok to murder an EMBRYO because it hasnt' taken a breath yet it was MEANT to have been a HUMAN? How freakin contradictory! Have you even thought about what you are posting? Just because there is no breath taken in the womb, doesn't mean that there isn't life in there!!!!!!!!!! If life can begin in a test tube or in a glass dish in a lab then why can't life begin in the uterus? Why is life discredited so much? Our world is just so evil and corrupt for the way that it thinks about life. And this is all in Satan's evil plan...for life is God's precious gift to each one of us...and when we kill that life, we might as well be killing a part of God...and giving to Satan exactly what he wants...ourselves. IP: Logged |
The passenger
Knowflake Posts: 370
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted March 21, 2004 02:01 AM
Obviously, you wouldn't agree with what Linda said in 'Star Signs', and you WOULD agree with what she said in 'Love Signs'. Do you know there is another section entitled 'L.G. contradicts herself' in the Uni-versal Code forum, in which there are heated debates over the same issue? If you are still here, please take time to read my post which mentions 'conception and pregnancy being our responsibility, if not be put as immense responsibility' on page 3. I believe you would agree with my opinion there. ------------------
Dana IP: Logged |
majenta
Knowflake Posts: 92
From: Oz
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted March 21, 2004 08:50 AM
Just amanda your words are judgmental and cruel. You sould have empathy for the woman and men who may frequent these boards and be trying to cope with either their own experience or someone elses. It is not ok for them to hurt their babies but it is ok for you to hurt them? I think not.For example, your words of god and satan read to me like the fiction kids read in a fairytale. I am not going to call you insane because you believe this, so you should not label people either. It is called respect. ------------------
- Nothing can bring you peace but yourself - Emmerson IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Moderator Posts: 1568
From: sleepy Rocky Mountain village
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted March 21, 2004 11:46 AM
Majenta is right.  IP: Logged |
trillian
Moderator Posts: 2433
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted March 21, 2004 03:20 PM
Yup, majenta is right.Your concept of God/dess is not necessarily shared with others. The God/dess that I believe in is not cruel or judgemental. Nor is s/he threatened by what you call satan. God/dess is everything...ergo, everything is God/dess, including satan, and abortions, and puppies, and bombs, and rainbows... And I don't think anyone here has discredited life. You of course are entitled to your own beliefs JustAmanda.  IP: Logged |
TINK
Knowflake Posts: 943
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted March 21, 2004 06:08 PM
I agree, JustAmanda has a right to her opinions. We all do. The trick is expressing them properly. Of course when we feel something strongly sometimes it's hard to hold back.I personally believe that if my Mom had decided to abort my chosen body, I simply would have incarnated in another. No hard feelings. Can't agree more strongly with what trillian said. The Mother and Father who art in Heaven are not cruel or punishing to their children. I know how forgiving, loving and non-judgemental my own mom was with me. Would I expect anything less from the Great Mother? IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Knowflake Posts: 526
From: North Carolina
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted March 21, 2004 06:31 PM
Well, for starters, I believe if our mothers had aborted us then we'd certainly have very different lives because we would've born in another place and perhaps another "time". It isn't as though you destroy a person's spirit/mind/soul when you abort their body-to-be ... especially since you don't destroy their spirit/mind/soul even if you do murder them. I, for one, think we would be here to discuss this topic in another flesh temple if we were meant to be here to discuss it. Also, I haven't seen anyone post anything about whether or not the child to be is "real". However, I don't think to be real you need a flesh body. God/dess is real to me, even though I can't say I've seen him or her (not us, the many pieces of them ) walking around in hemp sandals and swimsuits at the beach. There's also the whole question of illusions, but that point would cause us to digress even more off the issue at hand.
Moving on then ...
Not everyone believes that abortions are murder. Plain and simple. If that's what you believe, I think you'll find that most people here will at the very least respect your right to believe whatever you choose to. As for the egg issue ... there are plenty of reasons not to eat eggs, if you choose not to. The eggs which most people buy from the grocery store and eat, by the way, are unfertilized anyway. I'm not saying that I'm all about eating eggs, but I, personally, haven't found the "right to life" issue to be a part of my decision making when it comes to ... unfertilized eggs.
As for thinking, yes, I do give alot of thought to what I post before I post it. In fact, there was a time when I was less inclined to think as much. Back then, I was being raised as a strict Catholic, and I was pro-life all the way. And then, one day, I actually stopped to think about what I believed and why I believed it, instead of just accepting what I was told by others as being true. I began to think for myS-elf. Thinking, for me, made all the difference.
As for life in the womb, I think life is alot more than just a flesh body. When it is a body that, among other things, can't support a life yet, well, to me at least, that most definitely isn't Life. I personally do not believe that life begins in a test tube or a dish in a lab, either, by the way.
I happen to think it is entirely lacking in any kind of Faith to think that our world is evil and corrupt. There are many good things in our world, if you have eyes to see and ears to hear, that is. However, I must admit that "evil" makes its rounds as usual. I, for one, have found "evil" to be most at work in people who are intolerant. I think when people lack tolerance for the beliefs/cultures/creeds of others then these same intolerant ones are making themselves a vessel for "evil" to come into this world more easily. I certainly don't think "evil" has to necessarily be "satan" though I do understand that alot of people believe that "he" is, and I respect that.
Clearly, our views differ as to when life begins. I think that's fine. I'm not trying to coerce anyone into believing what I believe ... I'm just sharing. And I'm glad that I have such a great place to share my beliefs with people who, for the most part, will be tolerant and understanding of those beliefs even if they don't necessarily agree. I respect your right to believe whatever you do, JustAmanda, so please show some respect for me and all the others here who share their views ... even the ones who don't post. You never who you may be hurting with your angry words.IP: Logged | |
Lindaland
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