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Author Topic:   Vegetarianism vs. omnivorism
The passenger
Knowflake

Posts: 358
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 10, 2004 08:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
I remember once in a post someone said '...humans are omnivores...the smell of cooking flesh triggers our taste buds...', which, I must say, isn't quite true. When you pass by fruits & veg stalls in a market, the scents are pleasant and make you feel refreshed.

On the contrary, when you pass by meat or fish stalls, the smells of dead flesh make you sick. The smell of cooking flesh may be 'tempting', but that's all because of the seasoning. Without seasoning, the odour of cooking flesh is still rather annoying.

Hence eating fruits, vegetables and other plant-based foods is natural, and eating flesh is unnatural.

There are two attitudes about eating flesh- lack of awareness and indifference. The former is that one is not aware of the methods of factory farming and the slaughter house and as well as the nutritional facts, and the latter is that one somehow ignores the facts and continues to be part of animal cruelty and poisoning his/her body.

Today's farms are no longer the kind of farms we used to know. They are rather 'factories' than 'farms'. Farm animals and animal products are 'produced' in mass quantity in order to satisfy the needs of the market. In order to save money, time and space, what really is going on in factory farms is indescribably sickening and against human nature.

The structure of human's digestive system suggests that we are more like herbivores than omnivores and carnivores. Our teeth, our stomachs and our bowels are not like predators' at all.

Being on top of the food chain is hazardous for your health as farm animals are injected with antibiotics and hormones and the sea is heavily contaminated. As Linda said, fruit is not part of the food chain. And I've been thinking about fruitarianism, which coincides with the Bible- in the beginning of the history of humankind, humans' first food was fruit. I believe fruit is the ultimate, most natural food for human beings (Many may argue that we need carbohydrate). It's just we're so far away from that time and have been eating flesh for so long, as Linda pointed out, our bodies are very poisoned.

But there's one thing I don't fully agree with Linda, which is that we must spend fifteen years to get rid of flesh and other animal products completely. Many of us must know by now that with appropriate info, one can change his/her diet into a veggie/vegan one without any problem. But for some, I would suggest that they try Linda's advice (but it DOES NOT have to take fifteen years!!!), so the body and the mind can gradually adjust to the way of 'going back to normal'.

Somebody argued that plants can feel pain, too, as Linda described in 'Star Signs', the 'Primary Cell Preception' section, so 'what's the point in not eating flesh?' I believe all beings are souls and can feel, even what you would call 'objects'. But the point is, killing animals is more like killing our own kind, because we are all made from flesh and blood. On the other hand, consuming plants is less like killing our own kind, although they can sense pain and fear as well. That's why Linda suggested us to eventually become breatharians, so we won't have to interfere with nature any more. I believe this is possible, though not that easy to achieve with our general living conditions (BUT it IS possible).

As for the nutritional aspects, to sum it up, plant-based foods cover all the nutrients you need. You may need to take supplements (e.g. vitamin B-12) but plant-based ones are available now. Flesh contains no fibre (which is essential for humans) but contains saturated fat and cholesterol, which are harmful for us.

www.viva.org.uk


This is THE link for the quickest access to the reality behind factory farming. Here you can view video footage of factory farms- how the animals are treated, or I should say, abused. Along with loads of information on animal cruelty, campaigns, nutrition, recipes and more. You can also contact them for info on how to bring up veggie/vegan babies and how to eat properly as a veggie/vegan during pregnancy [Here's another respect that I disagree with Linda- letting your baby go veggie/vegan (but I'm all for breastfeeding- by saying 'vegan' I don't mean excluding breastfeeding) right from the start is NOT dangerous].

www.vegansociety.com


For anyone who would like to go vegan or who is already a vegan. The magazines will enrich your knowledge on vegan and environmental issues.

Two remarkable books for those who are interested in the truth-

Diet for a New America

The Food Revolution

Both by John Robbins. The facts presented in these books should arouse your awareness. As for those who wish to remain indifferent, at the end of the day, it's a matter of choice. But when you're eating a piece of flesh, you're eating that animal's tremendous pain, fear, suffering, struggling and try to imagine you are it...

P.S. Any fruitarian or breatharian out there please stand up and share your experience with us!


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Dana

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SunChild
Knowflake

Posts: 265
From: Victoria, Australia
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 10, 2004 10:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks Dana, that's wonderful. I just will quickly point out to people out there who are concerned about vitamin B12, that it IS available throught the consumption of MUSHROOMS. Any sort of edible fungi contains a rich source of B12.

I can also say since I have become a part time fruitarian and part time vegan I have since become a much healthier human being. I dont have any odor coming from sweat or going to the toilet. And I believe that smelling unpleasent is unnatural to us.

I want to also point out that you can get EVERY vitamin and mineral you need from fruits and vegetables. If you eat your required calories for the day you will recieve you RDA of vitamins and minerals.

The difference between plants and animals is this. I know they are both conscious. But what makes them different is that a plant know's they are being 'chopped up' but they do not feel the pain, they are ONLY aware of it. Obviously animals do feel the pain. Plants do not have a nervous system like us animals with flesh and blood. They have a consciousness and awarness like us, but they do not feel the actual pain.

In the next 5 years I will become a full time fruitarian, for now I will stay part time as I want my body to adjust to it slowly, i believe that is important. But there is nothing wrong with giving up ALL flesh at one time. My body responded to that positivly, then I gave up diary & eggs, then finally all processed foods.

My life has improved 100%
since I started eating properly, but the only warning I'd give to anyone else who is eating this way is that you make sure you eat a variety of fruits, vegetables, nuts & seed, you must eat a little of everything to stay healthy.

--stephanie

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The passenger
Knowflake

Posts: 358
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 11, 2004 12:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
That's great, Stephanie, and thanks for the info- I mushrooms. I haven't prepared myself for becoming a fruitarian just yet, but I've been contemplating it. I think it would be best to give up all processed foods. One doesn't have to quit all animal products (dairy, eggs and bee products- though dairy would make you very ill and egg is a rich source of cholesterol) at once, eliminating flesh would be the first step and a significant one. But people can do this according to how their bodies react.

I went vegetarian almost 11 months ago and became a vegan a while after that. I plan to give my body at least a few more years before going fruitarian. I am going to follow Linda's advice on cleansing (eating only fruit and drinking fruit juices once a week) and fasting (as described in 'Star Signs', chapter 9).

What is the full form of 'RDA'?

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Dana

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The passenger
Knowflake

Posts: 358
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 11, 2004 07:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
There has been reports about Brazil mushrooms which are so rich in nutrients, especially one which, unfortunately, I don't know what is called in English. They're YUMMY.

I've re-membered that, actually, when one finds it too drastic to change his/her food style, it can be psychological or simply the diet is not right. A balanced near vegan/vegan diet is the best diet and surely makes you healthy! Make it low in fat, not too high in protein, rich in carbohydrates, fibre, vitamins and minerals (fruit & veg in particular) and you'll be full of energy. Then you can think about going fruitarian...it takes time and patience, I think.

By becoming aware of the truth and refusing to be indifferent, you will be determined enough to go veggie/vegan at once.

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Dana

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mortega
Knowflake

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From:
Registered: Jan 2003

posted June 11, 2004 08:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mortega     Edit/Delete Message
Mushrooms themselves do not contain B12 unless grown in cow pastures (rich in manure), because B12 is produced by bacteria, and the bacteria in the manure is then found on the mushrooms, hence the belief mushrooms contain B12. But if you wash the mushrooms, no more B12.

Sadly, I don't think there's any source of B12 for the vegan other than a vitamin pill. Of course, if you don't eat animal products, you probably don't need as much B12 as you would if you do eat animal products since B12 is responsible for the absorption of calcium and more calcium is needed to digest protein.

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TINK
Knowflake

Posts: 892
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003

posted June 11, 2004 09:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TINK     Edit/Delete Message
Glad to see that you are still on the veggie path, SunChild. What an enlightened little elf you are! And still an inspiration. Years ago I spent one day a week on a fruitarian diet. I can't remember why I stoppped. I'm hoping to get pregnant next year so in the meantime I'm trying to cleanse my temple as much as possible beforehand. I think I'll try that fruit-only day again. Thank you for re-minding me!

I wonder if you were a vegetarian in your previous incarnation. It seems to have come so easily to you and you appear to understand it so well. Maybe you are continuing where you left off?

All of this mushroom talk is very interesting. I had no idea.

Always thought-provocking info, passenger. thanks

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Yin
Knowflake

Posts: 241
From:
Registered: May 2004

posted June 11, 2004 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message
quote:

Vitamin B-12

Overview:
Vitamin B-12, otherwise known as cyanocobalamin, performs as a coenzyme for the creation of DNA material. It also promotes growth and cell development and is important to fat, carbohydrate, and protein metabolism. Although vitamin B-12 is not found in plant foods, good sources of this supplement include meats, fish, eggs, and dairy products.
How This Vitamin Works in Your Body:
Growth and development of nerve, skin, hair, and blood cells
Produces genetic material
Metabolizes amino and fatty acids
Works to release food energy
Helps treat Alzheimer’s disease
May help sufferers of nervous disorders
Could improve immune system
May see increase in energy and memory

The Following May Benefit from the Consumption of This Vitamin:
Vegans
Those with increased nutritional needs
Substance abusers
Those with chronic illnesses or recently undergone surgery, especially removal of portions of gastrointestinal tract
Burn and recently injured patients
Those with malignancies of the pancreas or bowels

Where This Vitamin is Found:
Beef
Beef liver
Blue cheese
Clams
Dairy products
Eggs
Flounder
Herring
Liverwurst
Mackerel
Milk
Oysters
Sardines
Snapper
Swiss cheese

How to Use:
Available as:
Liquid: the best form due to its high bioavailability and fast absorption. Always choose liquid as your first choice when supplementing your diet.

Tablets: available

Recommended Daily Intakes
Men: 2.4 mcg
Women: 2.4 mcg
Pregnancy: 2.6 mcg
Lactation: 2.8 mcg

Cautions:
Consult your doctor if you have:
Anemia.

Over 55:
Those with achiorhydria may absorb less.

Pregnancy:
Keep doses within DRI.

Breastfeeding:
Keep doses within DRI.

Storage:
Heat and/or moisture may alter the vitamin. Refrigeration is recommended.

Symptoms of Deficiency:
Symptoms include nausea, loss of appetite, sore mouth, diarrhea, abnormal gait, loss of sensation in hands and feet, confusion, memory loss, and depression. Harmful anemia may be a result of this deficiency.

Overdose:
Signs of Overdose:
When taken in conjunction with large doses of vitamin C, nosebleeds, ear bleeding, or dry mouth may occur.

Side Effects:
Reaction or effect : What to do
Diarrhea : Stop use and call doctor.
Skin itching : Obtain emergency treatment immediately

Interactions:
Interacts with : Combined effect
Tobacco/Alcohol : Reduces the absorption of vitamin.
Antibiotics : False low test results for vitamin may result.
Chloramphenicol : If vitamin is being used to treat anemia, response may be hindered.
Cholestyramine : Reduces the absorption of vitamin.
Colchicine : Reduces the absorption of vitamin.
Epoetin : Reduces the absorption of vitamin.
Folic acid : Vitamin deficiency masked in large doses.
Neomycin (oral forms) : Reduces the absorption of vitamin.
Potassium (extended-release forms) : Reduces the absorption of vitamin.



http://www.vitamins-nutrition.org/vitamins-guide/vitamin-b-12-cyanocobalamin.html

Also check this out:
http://www.fruitarian.com/ao/WhatIsFruitarianism.htm

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"Know thyself"
Inscribed on the temple of Apollo at Delphi

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orchidspirit
Knowflake

Posts: 79
From: UK
Registered: May 2004

posted June 11, 2004 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for orchidspirit     Edit/Delete Message
Marmite and vegemite contain vitamin B12, they are suitable for vegans. However not 100% sure whether the B12 is added by manufacturer or whether it is found naturally in the yeast which is used to make it.

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Yin
Knowflake

Posts: 241
From:
Registered: May 2004

posted June 11, 2004 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
The best sources of B12 are animal-derived: liver, meat, salt-water fish, oysters, milk, eggs, aged cheese such as Roquefort, and fortified brewer's yeast. Vitamin B12 occurs naturally in the soil and on the surface of unwashed fruits and vegetables. Those on an animal-free diet may wish to eat unwashed, organic produce whenever possible.

There is debate over the reliability of non-animal sources of Vitamin B12. It was found that people on vegan diets had lower levels of serum B12 levels than the general population. In particular, infants breast-fed or fed a macrobiotic diet directly are at a great risk of developing B12 deficiency.

Non-animal sources which claim to have significant amounts of B12 such as tempeh, micro-algaes (spirulina, chlorella), miso, tamari, and sea vegetables (nori, arame, kombu, wakame) have been found to have negligible amounts, or B12 analogues that show up on lab tests, but don't have the activity of real B12.

It should be noted that there are different techniques for measuring the B12 content of foods. Furthermore, the B12 content in fermented foods, such as tempeh, may be different due to varying production techniques. In Indonesia, traditionally-produced tempeh is loaded with B12-producing bacteria which grow on the molds commonly growing on the food. In the U.S., however, large scale production and improved sanitation decreases the mold and bacteria and the subsequent B12 content of the food. The most reliable non-animal, but natural, source of B12 seems to be fortified brewers yeast.



http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T39005.html

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"Know thyself"
Inscribed on the temple of Apollo at Delphi

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trillian
Moderator

Posts: 2103
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003

posted June 11, 2004 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for trillian     Edit/Delete Message
Vegetarian. More vegan than not, but do sometimes indulge in dairy. Also I avoid sugar most of the time, and other nasty things...

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The passenger
Knowflake

Posts: 358
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 12, 2004 01:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
As the information I have and one of the web links Yin provided indicate, vitamin B 12 can be found in fortified foods such as breakfast cereals, yeast extracts, some margarines, rice milks and soya milks. Eating these foods daily will keep you away from being vitamin B 12 deficient.

According to 'Safeguarding Children's Health: Defeating Disease Through Vegetarian/Vegan Diets (by Laura Scott, MSc Nutrition, published by Vegetarian and Vegan Foundation), vitamin B 12 deficiency is actually very rare and the recommended daily intakes in the UK are 0.50 mcg (toddlers) and 1.50 mcg (15 plus).

quote:

...(Research)Results suggest that vitamin B 12 from fortified breakfast cereals, supplements...may be more efficiently absorbed in the body than foods traditionally viewed as the best sources- meat, poultry and fish. The theory put forward here is that such foods are cooked before eaten and the heat effectively destroys the vitamin.

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Dana

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LibraSparkle
Knowflake

Posts: 621
From: Vancouver USA
Registered: May 2004

posted June 12, 2004 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LibraSparkle     Edit/Delete Message
I do not intend on taking away from the value of wholesome raw foods grown in the earth (becasue I do believe them to be the most nutritious), it wasn't until humans began consuming the flesh of other animals and thus increasing their protien levels that the human brain grew in size drastically. When our brains grew in size, the human race's intelligence grew and civilizations began. Innovation and crativity can be linked to the consumption of meat.

I would also like to make the point that our teeth are more like that of an omnivores than those of an herbivore.

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The passenger
Knowflake

Posts: 358
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 12, 2004 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
quote:

Innovation and crativity can be linked to the consumption of meat.

After a meal which contains mainly flesh, you feel tired and sluggish. On the contrary, eating plant-based foods makes your mind clear. Too much meat makes you sick, but adding more and more fruits and veg never will (they will only make you full). Eating flesh is against nature.

Where did you get the theory about eating meat creates civilisation? Long time ago, in the Far East, people ate very little meat and think about the great civilisations such as China and Japan. In India there have been numerous vegetarians and the nation is also a grand civilisation. This proves that you don't need flesh to 'begin civilisation'.

And by the way, the high protein myth is, unfortunately, still around today. Too much protein is in fact bad for you.

Think about how unnatural it is for us to try to bite a steak or a chicken's leg and you'll realise human teeth are more like herbivores'.

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Dana

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The passenger
Knowflake

Posts: 358
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 13, 2004 08:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
Japenese have long been a fish-eating people actually...so what I've said may not ring true. Still, I do not think meat-eating has anything to do with civilisation. On the contrary, I think it blocks our evolution. Killing is unnecessary, and harvesting is part of the circle of nature.

And Yin, I should have thanked you for the fruitarianism web link. But personally, I feel that we cannot rush to go fruitarian. I believe it will take us a relatively long time to slowly and safely become fruitarians. It is good enough to be vegan, though.

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Dana

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The passenger
Knowflake

Posts: 358
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 13, 2004 11:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
quote:

The UK government recommends 1.5 micrograms per day as sufficient to reliably prevent clinical deficiency, but higher intakes are required to avoid elevated homocysteine and associated increased mortality. The Vegan Society therefore recommends that all vegans get at least 3 micrograms of B 12 every day to maximise the health benefits of their diet.

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Dana

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The passenger
Knowflake

Posts: 358
From: Taipei, Taiwan
Registered: Jan 2004

posted June 14, 2004 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
For more information on vitamin B-12, visit

www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

When travelling and eating out becomes a problem for vegans, I would try to find some fruit. I would ask for some fruit or even just juice (fresh, not artificial). I think it's a good solution, and I wouldn't worry about malnutrition. After all, it's only temporary (unless you're already a fruitarian).

Viva veganism!!! V is for veganism, v is for vita, ville, life!

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Dana

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LibraSparkle
Knowflake

Posts: 621
From: Vancouver USA
Registered: May 2004

posted June 14, 2004 07:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LibraSparkle     Edit/Delete Message
Vegetarian Diets: Bad For Your Brain?

By Anthony Colpo.

February 11, 2004.
One of the more fanciful arguments for vegetarianism is that meat-eating produces aggressive tendencies, while vegetarian diets create feelings of calmness, tranquility, and peace. This theory clocks up quite a lot of mileage in vegetarian propaganda, despite having absolutely no basis in scientific reality.

If anything, vegetarian diets are more likely to harm one's cognitive faculties, thanks to a greatly increased risk of vitamin B12 deficiency. Vegetarians also have lower dietary and lower blood levels of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids such as DHA and EPA. (1-6) These fatty acids can be formed in the body from plant-based omega-3 fats, but numerous studies show that the conversion rate is very low.(7,8) B12 is essential for optimal cognitive function, while DHA is a major component of brain tissue.

In 1986, Dutch researchers observed that vegan infants had markedly lower B12 levels and impaired psychomotor functioning when compared to control infants.(9,10) On the basis of these findings, the researchers made dietary recommendations to the families of the infants, who subsequently began switching their youngsters to lactovegetarian, lactoovovegetarian, or even omnivorous diets. On average, the children were six years old when the dietary change took place.

In 2000, researchers reported on follow-up examinations of these same subjects, who were now aged between 10 to 16. Two-thirds of the formerly vegan adolescents still suffered from B12 deficiency, whereas all of the subjects in a similarly aged omnivorous control group had normal B12 levels. When given a series of cognitive tests, the ex-vegan group achieved poorer results than the lifetime-omnivore group. A significant association was found between low B12 status and poorer performance on tests measuring fluid intelligence, spatial ability, and short-term memory.

Because fluid intelligence involves reasoning, the capacity to solve complex problems, abstract thinking ability, and the ability to learn, the authors pointed out that: "Any defect in this area may have far-reaching consequences for individual functioning." (11).

British researchers found that, compared to omnivores and lactoovovegetarians, vegans suffered a higher frequency of abnormal electroencephalogram (EEG) readings, a test designed to detect abnormalities in the electrical activity of the brain (12,13). In one of their studies, B12 supplementation improved EEG scores in most of those registering abnormalities, but three of the vegans failed to respond to heavy supplementation with either oral or injected B12 (12).

So That's Why...!

These findings go a long way towards explaining the rather bizzarre behavior exhibited by radical vegetarian groups like PETA and the so-called Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. It may also help explain much of the irrational, scientifically-unfounded tripe spouted by folks like Dean Ornish.

And if the aforementioned's irrational antics aren't illustrative enough, try this one on for size: Adolf Hitler, one of the most destructive individuals in modern history, was an avid vegetarian! (Click here to learn more about Hitler's disdain for meat). Among the insane one's many flawed prophecies was the prediction that "...the world of the future will be vegetarian."

Thank goodness he never was much of a clairvoyant...

References

1. Sanders TAB, Reddy S. The influence of a vegetarian diet on the fatty acid composition of human milk and the essential fatty acid status of the infant. Journal of Pediatrics, 1992; 120: S71-S77.

2. Sanders TAB, et al. Studies of vegans: the fatty acid composition of plasma choline phosphoglycerides, erythrocytes, adipose tissue and breast milk, and some indicators of susceptibility to ischemic heart disease in vegans and omnivore controls. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1978; 31: 805-813.

3. Li D, et al. The association of diet and thrombotic risk factors in healthy male vegetarians and meat-eaters. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1999; 53: 612-619.

4. Francois CA, et al. Supplementing lactating women with flaxseed oil does not increase docosahexaenoic acid in their milk. American Journal Clinical Nutrition, 2003 Jan;77(1):226-33.

5. Mezzano D, et al. Vegetarians and cardiovascular risk factors: hemostasis, inflammatory markers and plasma homocysteine. Thrombosis and Haemostasis, 1999; 81 (6): 913-917.

6. Fokkema MR, et al. Short-term supplementation of low-dose gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), or GLA plus ALA does not augment LCP omega 3 status of Dutch vegans to an appreciable extent. Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids, 2000; 63 (5): 287-92.

7. Emken EA, et al. Dietary linoleic acid influences desaturation and acylation of deuterium-labeled linoleic and linolenic acids in young adult males. Biochimica Et Biophysica Acta, 1994; 1213: 277-288.

8. Pawlosky RJ, et al. Physiological compartmental analysis of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in adult humans. Journal of Lipid Research. 2001; 42: 1257-1265.

9. Dagnelie PC, et al. Increased risk of vitamin B-12 and iron deficiency in infants on macrobiotic diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1989; 50: 818-824.

10. Dagnelie PC, et al. Macrobiotic nutrition and child health: results of a population-based, mixed-longitudinal cohort study in The Netherlands. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1994; 59 (Suppl.): 1187S-1196S.

11. Louwman MWJ, et al. Signs of impaired cognitive function in adolescents with marginal cobalamin status. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2000; 72: 762-769.

12. West ED, Ellis FR. The electroencephalogram in veganism, vegetarianism, vitamin B12 deficiency, and in controls. Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery and Psychiatry, 1966; 29: 391-397.

13. Kurtha AN, Ellis FR. Investigation into the causation of the electroencephalogram abnormality in vegans. Plant Foods for Human Nutrition, 1971; 2: 53-59.

Anthony Colpo is a certified fitness consultant with 20 years' experience in the physical conditioning arena. To contact: contact@theomnivore.com
http://www.theomnivore.com/veg%20diet%20bad%20for%20brain.html


I would like to address human teeth being like that of an herbivore... If your teeth are flat, I suggest you see a dentist and get a night guard... most likely, you're a grinder.

When we get our first set of adult molars, they are not flat. They are quite rigid. Did you get your wisdom teeth in? They're pretty pointy... not flat at all like a hippo.

Never once did I suggest we should eat meals made up entirely of animal products. You're putting words in my mouth. I am simply offering proof of why meat-eating is valuable. You did start this thread with "Vegetarian vs Omnivoreism", did you not? If you're looking for a group of people to do nothing but agree with you, I suggest next time you choose the subject of your post more carefully.

Too much meat makes you sick... yes... this is true... so does too many apples, oranges, bananas... all in their different ways they disrupt your system if too much is consumed. Do you suggest we stop eating fruit as well?! Too much protien is bad for you... well, so is too many carbs... too much anything is bad for you. That's hardly a basis for an argument.

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LibraSparkle
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From: Vancouver USA
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posted June 14, 2004 07:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LibraSparkle     Edit/Delete Message
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/cavemen/chronology/contentpage2.shtml#Brain%20food


Brain food

Because meat is rich in calories and nutrients, easy-to-digest food, early Homo lost the need for big intestines like apes and earlier hominids had. This freed up energy for use by other organs. This surplus of energy seems to have been diverted to one organ in particular: the brain.

But scavenging meat from under the noses of big cats is a risky business, so good scavengers needed to be smart. At this stage in our evolution, a big brain was associated with greater intellect.

Big brains require lots of energy to operate: the human brain uses 20% of the body’s total energy production. But the massive calorific hit provided by meat kick-started an increase in the brain size of early humans.

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SunChild
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From: Victoria, Australia
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posted June 15, 2004 03:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message
I certainly have learned alot about vitamin B12, thanks for the input. I normally buy organic fruits and veggies, and i dont wash them well as I believe germs are good for our immunity in the long term. But I actually have bought vitamin b12 supplements, I take them sparingly every now and then. I find it does the job. I do eat loads of vegemite, it gives me all the b vitamins i need.

I always believe you should eat a wide variety of foods, and plenty of nutrient rich foods. Each person needs to assess them selves and do what they feel is good for their body, no matter how slow they take. At the end of the day I know humans are natural fruitarians, but we need to realise we are poisened through the consumption of flesh. Giving up red meat is a great start. As in the Bible itself quotes Genesis 9, 4-6 "However, you must not eat flesh with its life- that is, its blood--in it.
And I also quote Genesis 1, 29-31 " God further said 'Behold I have given you every SEED-bearing plant over all the Earth, and every FRUIT-tree, the fruit of which grows SEED; it will be your food! And to all the animals on earth, to all the birds of the air and to every living creature that creeps on the earth I have given the GREEN vegetation for food'".-- Where is it said in the beginning we can eat our animals brothers and sisters?

Im not a christian bible follower myself but I do like to read the good book occasionaly, I believe there are alot of truths in it.

QUOTE: After a meal which contains mainly flesh, you feel tired and sluggish. On the contrary, eating plant-based foods makes your mind clear. Too much meat makes you sick, but adding more and more fruits and veg never will (they will only make you full). Eating flesh is against nature.

I can say thats true, for sure!


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sthenri
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posted June 15, 2004 08:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sthenri     Edit/Delete Message
Hi, while I agree eating too much flesh is bad, I tried being a vegetarian in my teens and it didn't go well. I did it to impress a boyfriend and quickly had trouble thinking, learning, my memory was always failing and I got very sick easily.

I followed all the guidelines, took the right vitamins and my boyfriend at the time was very fit. It just didn't work for me, as it doesn't always for all women who need more nutrients for one reason or another. Unfortunately I did a lot of damage to my health at a time when I needed my strength.

I would recommend not becoming a vegetarian until later in life, possibly late 20's or early thirties.

Natasha
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Knowflake

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posted June 15, 2004 09:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
LibraSparkle,

What about the high saturated fat, cholesterol and the absence of fibre in animal products? Would you call that 'valuable'? Even if they had some nutritional value, today's animal products are filled with antibiotics, hormones, tranquilisers (meat and dairy products), mercury, POPs and PCB (fish) and pesticide (bee products). Today's flesh is far more inedible than that of yesterday's. Definitely not edible.

I personally do not agree with how PETA carries out their work, and not all vegetarian/vegan groups are like PETA and Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, for example: Thames Valley Vegan and Vegetarians www.makessense.co.uk/tvvv Sophie Fenwick-Paul, who is in charge, believes that you should not blind people by any extremist attitude. The Vegan Society www.vegansociety.com is much more peaceful than many other vegetarian/vegan/animal rights organisations.

Just because you're a vegetarian/vegan doesn't mean you're peace-loving. It doesn't even necessarily mean you love animals. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a better person. You mentioned Adolf Hitler. I know lots about him, believe me. He was a vegetarian. So? Let's not forget that Gandhi was also a vegetarian, and he was the man who led India to independence, who inspired the whole nation and he was all for non-violence. Hitler is too extreme an example.

What I was getting at was that, human teeth are more like those of herbivores' than those of carnivores'. Not just teeth. Our stomachs are not as acidic as those of meat-eaters'. Our colons' structure is entirely different from that of meat-eaters'. See the comparisons in 'Diet for a New America' by John Robbins.

I do choose the subjects of my posts carefully, and I welcome debates. This time, I am not here to ask a question. I am here to express my opinion, and I certainly seek agreement, but I do not anticipate everybody to agree with me completely, otherwise it would be boring, don't you think? We are here to express and exchange our viewpoints and we do influence one another. There will be agreement and disagreement, and I respect that.

NO. No mattter how much fruit you eat, you never feel sick. That's the fact. Plant-based, unprocessed foods don't make you sick, they only make you full and you just stop eating when you're full. HOWEVER, too much flesh DOES make you sick, which is also a fact.

NOT 'too much anything' is bad for you. For instance, 'too much' fibre is never bad for you. 'Too much' fresh air is never bad for you.

I'll be back for further discussion.

And SunChild thanks a bunch for your support!!!

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Dana

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posted June 15, 2004 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
If my reply (which had a clash with another reply, I've just found out) doesn't appear by tomorrow morning, I'll have to re-type it.

Hitler was a vegetarian. So was Gandhi.

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Dana

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posted June 15, 2004 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
testing

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Dana

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Knowflake

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posted June 15, 2004 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The passenger     Edit/Delete Message
The correct web address of Thames Valley Vegans and Vegetarians is

www.makessense.co.uk/tvvvs

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Dana

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LibraSparkle
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posted June 15, 2004 12:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LibraSparkle     Edit/Delete Message
Sun Child,

I agree completely that a wide variety of fruits and veggies are very important to our diet. Veggie or Omnie... it's a personal choice. One is not better or richous than the other.

Quoting a book that also suggests it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery isn't really gonna make any points as far as I'm concerned. The bible is not a credible source of information.

Also, I would be careful to find out just where your organic food is grown... if it's grown in Mexico, it could organically be grown using human feces as fertalizer. A google search will prove it, if you don't believe me. I've heard it in a news program and read about it in my local paper.

Certainly a meal of mainly flesh will leave you lethargic. Too many calories. A variety of food is important. Vegetarians make it sound as though meat eaters eat nothing but meat. Seriously. Please. When you eat a meal with proper portions, including meat, it DOES NOT leave you feeling lethargic. I don't know anyone who sits down to a meal of mainly meat.

Dana,

You said, "NO. No mattter how much fruit you eat, you never feel sick. That's the fact. Plant-based, unprocessed foods don't make you sick, they only make you full and you just stop eating when you're full. HOWEVER, too much flesh DOES make you sick, which is also a fact."

I disagree with you, strongly. If I were to eat too many oranges, grapes, apples, or pears, I would get terrible diarrhea, you may choose to disagree with me, but I call that sick, If you were to eat a bite of meat now that you have purged it from your system, you would get the same diarrhea that I would get from excess fruit.

The fats you mentioned... Well, let me begin by explaining to you how important ALL kinds of fats are to a baby. With out fat in their diets, their brains would not develop. They would not learn. Not only that, their organs would not grow, their bodies would not grow. They would waste away looking terribly unhealthy. One of the worst things you can do to a child is make them a vegitarian, or even worse a vegan. These diets, and that's what I believe them to be... "fad diets" like Atkins and the like, are only for adults and can be seriously desasterous for a young child.

It seems to me that to be a vegetarian or vegan you have to work very hard to see to it you can get from outside sources the same nutrition from a pill or drops or whatever it is you use to see to it you get the same nutrition you would get from eating a small healthy portion of lean meat.

Just as many arguments can be made FOR eating meat as there can be arguments for not eating it.

In my opinion most vegetarians, especially vegans, tend to be pretty bigoted in their opinions.

You mention Ghandi... he was a vegetarian, yes. He also drank his own urine because he believed it would make him stronger and healthier.

It's funny how my argumentative Libra Sun has taken me over in this discussion. I do have some reservations about some meat. I have issues eating meat off of the bone... it can't resemble an animal in any way, shape or form, or I'll lose my appitite. I can't skin or bone anything. I also can't gut a fish. I do enjoy eating meat and the smell of cooking flesh does NOT make me nausiated in the slightest. Seasoning or not.

I would also like to add that you should take your blood type into consideration before you EVER consider becoming a vegetarian. For some blood types, it is the worst choice you can make. Type O blood reqires much more protein that the other blood types. My husband is a type O and was told by a homiopathic Dr. that he should NEVER consider being a vegetarian.

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