posted November 15, 2006 10:57 AM         

I talked to the lady who owns the organic store near the med school about this, and eventually she concluded that I was one of "the type of people" for whom a veggie diet was not suitable. She said that my body probably had more difficulty absorbing nutrients from plant-based foods than others.

I told her that every time I failed and went off a vegetarian/vegan diet was nearly always the same (actually I think I can say with more certainty that it was always the same)- deteriorating fatigue, lethargy, dizziness, falling asleep during the day while it's not time for a nap...these things had been happening for the past month, I think. Maybe as long as a month at least, I'm not sure. At first it was dizziness whenever I changed positions, what I presume was "orthostatic hypotension". Later on I would feel really tired and need a snooze from time to time during the day, and that was the case for the week prior to yesterday; finally, I went use the hospital library for real for the first time (I'd been using the other two before this visit), which is open Mon-Fri from 9AM to 5PM; I got there by 3PM, intended to spend the last two hours reading, but ended up semi-asleep for most of the time while I was at the library, and it was as though 1 hour and 15 minutes in total, being constantly awakened by people who came in, struggled to carry on reading but only to fall onto the desk in no time soon. This terrified me, as I had been aware of the warning signs- my moments of fatigue and somnolence, I mean. I reluctantly had a meal consisting of a baked fish last night. Today I had beef, among other things, for lunch. Afterward I went to the organic store owner and she commented that my body was likely to be "contraindicated" with a veggie diet. I was genuinely stunned when I learned about this. She discussed things such as if one is not mindful enough about the things they eat while on a veggie diet they can easily become nutrient-deficient. I said that I had been careful with what I ate; she mentioned spirulina when speaking of plant-based nutrients for avoiding anemia, and I told her that I had been taking spirulina everyday, plus the formula I'd been taking was an enhanced one. She then said that it must have been that my body absorbed plant-based nutrients inefficiently, which resulted in nutrient-deficiency and my lethargy, and that I needed some animal foods- at least some "animal-derived foods" to keep me up.

I wouldn't know for certain, since she sells organic animal foods in her store. She told me that she used to be a vegetarian, but was so ill that she was taken to the hospital, and the doctor said to her that if she wanted to stay alive she had got to switch to a non-vegetarian diet. She then went on and said that she considered her body also intolerant of a veggie diet.

I described some of my unpleasant experiences I had had to her- once it was two years ago, I was on a vegan diet, and became sleepy all the time, to the extent that one day while on the streets, I had to sneak into a BurgerKing and find a vacant seat and table to take a nap (NOT to eat there!). I was awakened later by a staff member who said to me something like "this is not a place for you to sleep for free". Another time was five years ago, when I went overseas for the very first time in my life. I was studying and staying with a local (homestay). My hostmother cooked delicious home-cooking lacto-ovo-vegetarian meals for me (while she was a meat-eater and was not experienced in catering for vegetarians- but the food was tasty and she was a wonderful cook), but it wasn't easy to obtain all nutrients I needed as a veggie but only too easy to miss some vital veggie nutrients, it turned out that I became severely exhausted. Despite my effort of going to bed by 9PM each night, I would have a hard time getting up in the morning by 7. Once I was even late. It was very challenging for me to stay focused the entire day at school. I didn't have the energy to do other things apart from attending classes.

I haven't forgotten why I wanted to go vegan in the first place, but now I'm really frustrated about what the organic store owner told me. I also let her know that I'd had 3 blood counts recently, which all showed that I was slightly short of red blood cells and/or hemoglobin(s?), and that my white blood cells amount had been very low. She said that my fatigue may have been due to my low WBC counts, hence a more vulnerable immune system. My next appointment with my hemotologist is in 12 days, he only arranged a test about the B vitamins for me and to see the results in 12 days; it is still not clear whether my extremely low (low enough for me anyway) WBC counts are medication-induced or owing to my vegetarian and vegan diets.

Is it true that not everyone can go and stay vegetarian/vegan? I have never pondered this seriously until today. Or there are secrets to success for becoming vegetarian/vegan long-term and remain healthy?

posted November 15, 2006 03:15 PM           

I am going to preface this with the disclaimer-
*I am not an expert*

That being said..

I read your post, and I feel empathy for your plight. The mind and heart say its the right thing to do to not eat animal products.. but the body is giving you some very clear signals that it can't function efficiently on just plant based sustenence.
This must be incredibly frustrating for you. (reading through old posts I realize you once were the moniker "the passenger" and I recall how passionate you are in your beliefs.)
I could say that the mind can overcome anything... that the body must be disciplined to follow suit...after all, thats how people lose weight, quit addictions, cure themselves of life threatening diseases, etc..
BUT-

Your body has given you some really clear messages. This level of fatigue and the dizziness you describe seem extreme. I believe the most important thing anyone can do is to listen and heed what the body says. Your symptoms seem to corrolate to someone on a drasticly reduced calorie diet, and this causes much stress on many bodily systems.

I remember reading the book "Eat Right 4 for Type" which claims that the perfect diet is based on one's blood type, and that Type 0 specifically needs meat. I am not sure if I really "buy into" the premise behind this book. I also don't believe a person must eat meat daily based on a blood type. Seems a little much.

Sorry the babble, my point is this- listen to your body. You can't live happily and think clearly if you are constantly exhausted and falling asleep in fast food restaurants (!!)

(ps... is this food shop owner a doctor? don't just take her word for it.. maybe you should find a Chinese Medicine Practitioner- maybe they can help you find an answer..)

good luck, D....

posted November 15, 2006 08:32 PM         

Going by what you have said, you should create a 5-10 year vegan transition plan. For example, cut out red meat for a couple of years, then white meat, then dairy and finally, eggs.
I suspect you are anaemic and your body needs to LEARN how to obtain nutrients from plants.
While you are transitioning the best thing to do is to begin juicing vegetables, (especially green vegetables) to start teaching your body to accept these minerals.
You need to provide your body with the new information (minerals) everyday.

posted November 16, 2006 12:57 AM         

Thank you! Thanks for your kind and sound advice, you all have been very helpful, and what you've said is very reasurring and comforting, and very informative

MK,

I'd like to welcome you back to LL after a couple of years off- hi! Uhh...I didn't realize that you took time and made efforts to read some recent posts and found out that I was The Passenger (busted! )...thanks for being compassionate and understanding. The organic shop owner is not a doctor, and thanks for reminding me of thinking about that and I will consult with other professionals, such as (a) good Chinese medicine physician(s) as you suggested. Now I feel more confident to ask experts for advice. More confident than I had been the past couple of days that I'll also contact a regional veggies and vegans group (via email or their website because they're based in England, where I met the founders but not where I currently reside) and The Vegan Society UK. Had I remained less confident and as frustrated as before I might not have considered taking these steps.

Oh btw, my blood type is B positive, not blood type O...hmm, I'm afraid I would say, too, that theory in "Eat Right 4 for Type" may be a little much.

Artlovesdawn,

Thanks for the info and encouragement. I'm going to search for that article about vegetarianism at Wikipedia (but a while ago its website seemed to have had completed some sort of restoration that I tried a few times but didn't figure out how to use it with its "new" system, or perhaps I was just mistaken. Anyway...). And yes, you make perfect sense that so many generations of vegetarians in India have managed to maintain their dietary tradition and thrive...just one of the reminders I need, and the vegetarians in India are truly a great inspiration- I'd like to find out how they manage that as well.

As for dairy cheese (lacto-vegetarian cheese of course)...I have to admit that I've always found myself enjoying its taste and texture (although not to the extent that I have this "I can't live without it" feeling), and for the moment I think I might be able to make compromise and tolerate it, physically. But one of the things I've always been wanting to achieve is to completely eliminate dairy products from my diet (not because of lactose-intolerance or other allergies, though), and just lately I thought I had finally successfully accomplished that...Still, I will give this idea a second thought.

Oh, and one more thing- I had been consuming what I perceive fair amount of soya products, nuts and seeds everyday while I was on an animal-free diet...I guess I need to do further research on vegetarianism and/or veganism and health for myself then...

SunChild,

I think your advice is really helpful, really practical- maybe I'm one of the group of people who would need a gradual transition to switch their meat-based diets to a plant-based diet. I had been thinking about Linda's theory in Star Signs on vegetarianism, and vaguely wondered if this was how I should have changed my diet. Perhaps for some people, they can eliminate most or all animal foods from their diets overnight, while others wouldn't be able to do exactly the same (switching to veggie diets suddenly) and stay healthy. Gosh, I seem to have overlooked the importance for certain people to slowly transform their diets into a vegetarian one. I think this method is definitely worth a try.

But in the meantime, as I said above, I'll ask a few more people, including (a) Chinese/herbal medicine physician(s), and read more about some good information from reliable resources. Thank you again

posted November 16, 2006 03:38 AM           

In the book it talked about raw foods are actually harder to digest, and that people should steam/cook vegies just a little. It said that will break down some of the fiber enough to get the nutrients out of them. It also said never eat cold foods right out of the fridge. The stomach should be like a stew or soup; always have some liquid at meal time. The stomach doesn't like it too dry.

It really has some helpful insights into food choices & prep.

Good luck with your research & choices. Keep us posted on what you find.

posted November 17, 2006 11:29 AM         

Thanks for sharing some insight on food and human digestion. About raw foods being harder for humans to digest, I'll look into that in greater detail, I hope. This is the first time I've heard about this theory, and I think it may be important- perhaps in fact I'd heard of it before, but I just don't really remember when and how...I'll search for info on the book you mentioned at some online bookstores.

Artlovesdawn,

Thanks for recommending the article on vegetarianism at Wikipedia and as well as the further links at Wikipedia- I printed out the vegetarianism article, which is 14 pages long, and also the articles on veganism, fruitarianism; I read the aforementioned three, and printed a few more. My bad that I tried to re-read and highlight the vegetarianism article but ended up not having completed the re-reading, having to delay it til this morning (it has passed midnight where I am) and failing to reply earlier but only until now.

Anyway, at least I've read the article once, and I find it quite informative and interesting indeed. For the moment, I think it might be safer for myself to temporarily remain on a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet, or a near-vegetarian diet...although I would be reluctant to consume dairy products or eggs. However, until I discover some method or another that works for me and is perfectly safe for my health, I suppose I mustn't rush to go off all animal products cold turkey...?

posted November 17, 2006 11:29 PM         

Interesting comment of yours- brief but perhaps kind of deep, even though in a humorous tone; I think it's similar to MK's suggestions that it's essential to listen to what my body's trying to tell me.

Artlovesdawn and all you guys,

I'm beginning to presume that maybe for the time being, a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet may be the more ideal and safer diet for myself- I'm not 100% sure, however. I finally finished my re-reading of the Wikipedia article on vegetarianism and the highlighting of it as well.

To be honest, at least for the next week or two, I might put myself on a near-vegetarian diet, which means eating fish or meat occasionally. At least I felt that was what I had to do immediately this Wednesday when I had spent nearly an hour and a half sleeping in the library (3pm-5pm, not usual nap time). But in retrospect, I think allowing myself to eat eggs and dairy products, while forgoing meat and fish, with extra prudence and nutrition planning, I should be able to do okay...I hope.

The second day I had been off a veggie diet, which was this Thursday, the lady organic store owner had a chat with me. Like I said in my first post, I was trying to say that I wasn't sure if the shop owner would tell me the truth to the best of her knowledge, since she sells "organic"/"natural" animal products in her store- she might want to boost the sales, and consequently would advise me against a vegan or even merely a vegetarian diet, and would speak of the "benefits" of moderate meat, fish, dairy consumption. I was going to ask her what she thought about why vegetarians in India had successfully maintained their dietary culture for generations, but before bringing up the topic about India, I mentioned a study on the vitamin D deficiency from which Finnish vegans suffered, briefly described in Stephen Walsh's "Plant Based Nutrition and Health".

I questioned whether that indicated that people who live in places like Finland, where the altitude is high, temperature is very cold, and sunlight far from enough. I assumed those Finnish vegans had vitamin D deficiency because they couldn't obtain sufficient sunlight exposure. As a matter of fact, I had been suspecting if this means that in certain regions of the world, the living environment is simply not compatible with adopting a vegan diet.

Then I asked the shop owner my question about vegetarians in India- how do you think they manage to survive all right? Naturally, probably thanks to my bad tactics of discussing Finnish vegans nutrient problems first, she just "went with the flow", I guess- she remarked right away that it was because of the climate in India, and "it's very hot there" (nonetheless, judging from the way she expressed her ideas, I would presume that she was not all that familiar with the Indian subcontinent climate afterall- such as the seasons there and each season's features- the monsoon season, "the hot season", "the cold season", "the humid season"...and even within the same season there can be drastic changes in temperatures between the morning and the night...I would guess that she didn't know much about all this. In fact, neither do I ), hence the nation's idiosyncratic flora and fauna, the diversity and abundance of India's agricultural advantages (lentils/dahl, chick peas etc are originally local produce of India...?) and therefore India was a more ideal environment for vegetarians.

But what about vegetarians and vegans in other places? What about those in the UK, the USA etc? Certainly, the majority of vegetarians in Britain, for example, are said to be Hindus, but there are many others who are Caucasians and people of other races and/or ethnicities. I believe that not so few of them have maintained their vegetarian/vegan diet quite okay. Or so I've heard so far, at least.

So, is climate the sole factor which makes vegetarians in India successfully maintain their diet for such a long time? Or it's not just as simple as the climate thing? Personally, with limited knowledge and information currently, still, I doubt if this has to do exclusively with climate and nothing else but climate.

This lady is rather blunt, single-minded, subjective and a relatively simple, uncomplicated person. She had told me previously that she used to work for another local organic store chain (which is quite famous where I live), which only sold, the last time I checked, vegan or lacto-vegetarian organic foods. Unlike the other chain she works for now, which sells animal products as well. I never told her why I wanted to eventually become vegan, I still haven't, and don't plan to. I no longer think it's absolutely necessary to talk about it all the time to people, especially not to people I don't know that well.

Anyway, it was not I, but the shop owner who apparently intended to bring up the subject- as far as I'm concerned, she had been trying to discourage me to adopt a veggie diet. She started by saying "[About] killing (which seems to remain the most popular reason why individuals go vegetarian here in this country, partly due to the fact that people still tend to think that most vegetarians here are Buddhists)...don't plants have lives, too?"
That was one of those common questions non-vegetarians would ask, and as I had heard this worn-out question again, I got quite tired of it, and just somehow avoid further discussion on the seemingly philosophical, existential matter, and replied "It's not really just about killing or not killing..." and I changed subjects instantly. I didn't want to turn this conversation into a heated debate, or even a row, with a person who obviously had little or no idea about the intensive farming and environmental issues.

I've asked the owner to recommend a good Chinese medicine physician to me, which she did, and I'm planning to make an appointment with the doctor soon. I didn't tell her, though, that I asked because I would like to consult the physician about how to maintain a healthy, balanced veggie lifestyle, in case she protested my motive.

Wikipedia has such a well of information on vegetarianism and other related dietary topics, I'm so very amazed and delighted. I'm going to read more for sure. They're great articles indeed. Thanks, artlovesdawn!

By the way, one of the reasons why I chose not to contact organizations such as The Vegan Society or some British vegetarianism & animal rights group and its umbrella organization, which is responsible for veggie nutrition information is because- I've come to realize that regretfully, certain amount of propoganda has been involved in their campaigns and the messages they've been spreading, and I didn't, and still don't, consider them absolutely reliable sources, hence initially, I thought it would be more secure to ask folks in general who have had experiences about vegetarian lifestyles, rather than the veggie organizations.

I will be more cautious, watch my diet, my daily nutrient intake, and I believe I will do okay as a lacto-ovo vegetarian...but meanwhile, I will ask myself to study harder, and do my best to figure out how to be vegan and fit for myself.

posted November 18, 2006 03:44 AM         

I had breakfast at the organic store late this morning- I had oats cereal with natural plain (cow's milk) yoghurt, salad (with plum vinegar dressing), and some sort of wholemeal grain mixed with egg. I didn't have a bad breakfast...

In this country, people don't have their GPs. Instead we go see specialists directly. I think I've had three blood tests lately which all included complete blood count (CBC). I doubt if any of those three different physicians will initiate another CBC test for me, since under the rules here, unless in unusual situations, the same test/exam can only be done again three months after the previous one had been done. I'm not even sure if my primary physician (my psychiatrist) will agree to arrange another blood test for me

I don't know why I fell asleep again. It's not a good sign.

posted November 28, 2006 11:45 PM         

Due to my particular body constitution, I can easily be vegetarian if I lived in a year round warm climate. But if I live in places where the weather turns cold, my body NEEDS animal proteins to stay warm.

When I lived in NYC, after perfect vegetarian summers, I was always forced to eat some meat, mostly chicken or fish, in the winter, because otherwise, I would be feeling unbearably cold.

posted November 29, 2006 11:38 AM           

Just something I read...

posted November 30, 2006 08:46 AM         

Many thanks for your posts. I'm very interested in some things you mentioned- Ayuvarda, and the three different types Vatta, Pitta and Kapha. Where can I read more about them (maybe I should check wikipedia later? The library's closing and I can only come back online as soon as in over 12 hours)?

As I said in an earlier post in this thread as response to PhoenixFlight, who had mentioned the book "Eat Right For Your Blood Type", my blood type is B positive. I still don't know how that affects my bodily compatibility with different diets.

I live in a sub-tropical country, so I guess that's why I have fewer problems with cold weather; usually, the problem I have is not about feeling not warm enough, but just very low energy level. I had been trying to stay on a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet for about a week, or ten days, but I had to give up again today, just before reading your posts. Thanks for sharing...however I would be rather astounded if the fact is even a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet is not for everyone...

posted November 30, 2006 11:28 AM         

There are many good books on Ayurveda, and most of them are inexpensive. Just check Amazon.com and see which book description resonates with you best.

Also, do check the book on blood type. I think if you're B positive, you might be able to be vegetarian, but I am not sure of the details.

posted December 08, 2006 08:01 AM         

I've decided that for the moment the safest way for myself is probably following Linda's suggested approach, as illustrated by SunChild also here. If my body simply has problems with going vegetarian/vegan right now, and seems tenaciously intolerant...

Okay then, I've never tried this before, but it seems to be a good idea to me, and I can start right now by eliminating red meat from my diet, but continue to consume other animal foods for, say, 5 years at maximum (as Linda suggested)...and then move on to the next stage...

posted December 08, 2006 11:26 PM           

quote:

---

Sorry if this has already been said but O blood type people need to eat more so than A bloody types who fare better without...(O being the hunter/gatherer)

---

posted December 15, 2006 03:38 PM           

perhaps if you had bothered to READ these posts, you would see that DforD has already mentioned this plan.

And, no, I don't think we were ALL meant to be fruitarians. Not to spit on Linda, or anyone else's opinions, but ANY type of doctrine that says "Everyone MUST do this" is suspect.

To each their own.

posted December 15, 2006 10:41 PM         

You've pointed out what's been on my mind and many others' shared experiences succinctly

she's a peach & Aqua chita,

You two look like two double/multiple posters who have already been here at LL for years, and have just registered with your "twin" usernames for the recent personality disorder argument I have with Mirandee and Lialei- and coincidentally, both of you two newbies have come onto my thread looking for trouble. Maybe you two are two of the resentful *twins* of the old Knowflakes, huh?

You two won't stay on this thread for long because the two of you are not genuinely interested in the discussion here. The two of you are more compelled to cause a scene here- or to provoke me and so I would cause of scene.

posted December 16, 2006 02:55 AM           

Like I said didn't want to stand on anyone's toes, and I don't believe I was endorsing anyone. I was asking what was going on. Maybe you might want to take your own advice and 'READ' up there buddy.