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Topic: Caution: Retinoids and digestion
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Faith Knowflake Posts: 18372 From: Bella's Hair Salon Registered: Jul 2011
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posted June 28, 2016 11:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI0Qed3gaYQ Links to formal studied provided below the video. edit As for me, I've just seen anecdotal evidence for this being possibly more of a problem than people understand. I seem to be sensitive to it. IP: Logged |
Randall Webmaster Posts: 67133 From: Saturn next to Charmaine Registered: Apr 2009
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posted June 30, 2016 01:28 PM
Sounds like a connection, but it could be coincidence.IP: Logged |
Novabronte Knowflake Posts: 156 From: EU Registered: Nov 2015
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posted June 30, 2016 09:24 PM
I dont know if there is a connection between Retinol and stomach/intestines. Retinol in practically safe in most forms available, retinol palmitate being the most used, and yes it can be a skin irritant. If you were going to react to it with respect to your internal organs, then you would most certainly experience skin irritation. Another possibility is that the cream you are using has some other chemical in it that is known for organ damage - I refer you to the chemical database app further down in my post, you can check each ingredient against the database and see what turns up.Have you looked at the food produce as the possible cause? Genetically modified foods cause intestine problems, really nasty carcinogenic pesticides are used in gmo production. Over 90% of soya and corn in US is GMO. Watch for maize, corn syrup et al as these are made from that corn. Then you have gmo rice. Bananas and pineapples from Costa Rica. Few years ago pilot plantations of gmo Wheat were started around the world, not sure if it was introduced into food manufacture yet, I haven't checked. I just dont eat wheat, period. I buy fresh produce from sources I know or I get organic. There are other things like exitotoxins such as aspartme and monosodium glutanamate which are toxic. I am highly sensitive and I can tell you within 2 minutes of ingesting something if MSG has been added. Which is pretty annoying, have to be careful when choosing restaurants, and most definitely no chinese food for me. Fresh produce like lettuce especially are packed with pesticides, unless you grow it yourself or purchase organic you have no way of knowing what kind of chemicals have been used in production and how much. They use more and more of chemicals in hydroponics. Also if you buy imported fruit and veggies, check the origin, china is worst for pesticides. In Europe Spain is the worst. You can get a chemical substances study database app for iPhone, a good reference. Cream ingredients, some food ingredients too can be found listed here. Its free. Another one is the Additives database app. This one lists all the enigmatic E220, food dies etc and you get all the vital info, effects, and studies links. Water quality is another possible cause of stomach pain. It's common to do maintenance on water pipes in summer, as a result the scum that was blocked gets freed up and unfortunately flashes through the water system. In which case your symptoms would ease up soon. Is fluoride used in the water system in your area ? That's toxic too, it is actually classified as toxic waste and there are stringent regulations for disposal. Why is it used in water ? Very good question, and there is no logical answer. Fluoride has similar effect to sedatives. Pretty disgusting. Home filtration is a good solution, specifically carbon filters. There are small ones available you can screw onto taps. Well that's all I could think of on top of my head. Hope you get better.
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Faith Knowflake Posts: 18372 From: Bella's Hair Salon Registered: Jul 2011
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posted July 01, 2016 07:31 AM
Thanks for your list of other possible causes, and for the well-wishes, Novabronte. I do hope you will check out the studies at the YouTube link, and see if the science is convincing to you. Here's just one of the studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16863562/ quote: Possible association between isotretinoin and inflammatory bowel disease.Abstract OBJECTIVES: The Physician's Desk Reference lists inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) as a possible adverse event associated with the use of isotretinoin, a popular acne prescription medication. Our aim was to perform a systematic examination of reports of IBD associated with isotretinoin use. METHODS: All reports filed with the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) via the MedWatch system were requested and reviewed. Strength of causality was determined using the Naranjo adverse drug reaction (ADR) probability scale. RESULTS: All of the adverse reports filed with the FDA between 1997 and 2002 were accessed and reviewed. Eighty-five cases of IBD associated with isotretinoin use were reported. According to the Naranjo ADR probability scale, 4 cases (5%) scored in the "highly probable" range for isotretinoin as the cause of IBD, 58 cases (68%) were "probable," 23 cases (27%) were "possible," and no cases were "doubtful." CONCLUSIONS: In a subgroup of patients, isotretinoin might serve as a trigger for IBD.
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Novabronte Knowflake Posts: 156 From: EU Registered: Nov 2015
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posted July 01, 2016 08:17 AM
Darl this isotretinoin is not retinol, it is a retinoic acid used to treat acne. Personally I wouldn't touch it. These things are very very harsh on the skin. Just need to be specific when you talk chemical compounds.Use organic Anago , which is an african black soap , looks like a paste and I guarantee it clears the skin. Only tiny amount needs to be used as it is pretty strong. It is a natural antiseptic, cleansing and healing. Remedica Australia makes West African Anago, its lovely and absolutely pure organic. EDIT : sorry I meant to add that yes this isotretinoin is a nasty nasty chemical no matter if in cream or pill form. IP: Logged |
Faith Knowflake Posts: 18372 From: Bella's Hair Salon Registered: Jul 2011
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posted July 01, 2016 08:53 PM
quote: Originally posted by Novabronte: Darl this isotretinoin is not retinol, it is a retinoic acid used to treat acne. Personally I wouldn't touch it. These things are very very harsh on the skin. Just need to be specific when you talk chemical compounds.
I said "retinoids" not retinol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinoid Another study: quote: Retinoic acid suppresses intestinal mucus production and exacerbates experimental enterocolitis.Exposure to retinoids for the treatment of acne has been linked to the etiology of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD). The intestinal mucus layer is an important structural barrier that is disrupted in IBD. Retinoid-induced alteration of mucus physiology has been postulated as a mechanism linking retinoid treatment to IBD; however, there is little direct evidence for this interaction. The zebrafish larva is an emerging model system for investigating the pathogenesis of IBD. Importantly, this system allows components of the innate immune system, including mucus physiology, to be studied in isolation from the adaptive immune system. This study reports the characterization of a novel zebrafish larval model of IBD-like enterocolitis induced by exposure to dextran sodium sulfate (DSS). The DSS-induced enterocolitis model was found to recapitulate several aspects of the zebrafish trinitrobenzene-sulfonic-acid (TNBS)-induced enterocolitis model, including neutrophilic inflammation that was microbiota-dependent and responsive to pharmacological intervention. Furthermore, the DSS-induced enterocolitis model was found to be a tractable model of stress-induced mucus production and was subsequently used to identify a role for retinoic acid (RA) in suppressing both physiological and pathological intestinal mucin production. Suppression of mucin production by RA increased the susceptibility of zebrafish larvae to enterocolitis when challenged with enterocolitic agents. This study illustrates a direct effect of retinoid administration on intestinal mucus physiology and, subsequently, on the progression of intestinal inflammation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22563081 Longer version: http://dmm.biologists.org/content/5/4/457 Some warnings on retinyl palmitate: http://www.truthinaging.com/ingredients/retinyl-palmitate https://www.ewg.org/sunscreen/report/the-problem-with-vitamin-a/ IP: Logged |
Faith Knowflake Posts: 18372 From: Bella's Hair Salon Registered: Jul 2011
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posted July 01, 2016 10:48 PM
quote: Immune imbalance in gut may trigger celiac diseasePeople who have high levels of an immune system compound called Interleukin-15 may be primed to develop celiac disease, a digestive disorder that keeps sufferers from eating foods like cereal, pasta, cookies and beer. Blocking this compound in mice helped reverse the disease, U.S. researchers said on Wednesday. Vitamin A and retinoic acid, a byproduct of vitamin A used in the acne treatments Retin-A and Roche's former acne drug Accutane, may exacerbate the problem, acting as a trigger for the inflammatory response, the team said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-celiac-treatments-idUSTRE71877L20110209
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Randall Webmaster Posts: 67133 From: Saturn next to Charmaine Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 02, 2016 11:29 AM
What is safe for some still might not be for others. I would err on the side of caution.IP: Logged |
Valentine Knowflake Posts: 740 From: Canada Registered: Dec 2014
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posted July 02, 2016 09:56 PM
quote: Originally posted by Randall: What is safe for some still might not be for others. I would err on the side of caution.
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Randall Webmaster Posts: 67133 From: Saturn next to Charmaine Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 03, 2016 12:11 PM
That study looks definitive.IP: Logged |
Novabronte Knowflake Posts: 156 From: EU Registered: Nov 2015
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posted July 04, 2016 05:08 PM
No worries. Somehow I thought in your original unedited post you said retinol, my mistake. I dont use any pharmaceuticals whatsoever or anything synthetic and/or processed, skincare included , so these studies are not really applicable to me. And yes I know about celiac disease...anyway... PS. The black soap (anago) is really great for healing acne, I mentioned that in case anyone needed a simple healthy organic solution instead of that synthetic stuff. Only sharing to help, that's all. IP: Logged |
Randall Webmaster Posts: 67133 From: Saturn next to Charmaine Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 05, 2016 03:05 PM
Were there lawsuits over this?IP: Logged |
Randall Webmaster Posts: 67133 From: Saturn next to Charmaine Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 05, 2016 11:18 AM
I know there were some for that Vitamin A derivative for acne, Accutane. IP: Logged |
MinceyMouse Knowflake Posts: 3877 From: Registered: Jan 2014
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posted July 10, 2016 10:32 AM
Why are you so surprised about it? Retinoids destroy oil production, and are also cancer treatments. There is a reason you need prescription in most countries to consume it orally/intravenously. Doctors warn patients of the side effects, and they do dry you out- the skin's lipid barrier will be shot, and so will the mucus barriers internally. They have been effective, but as with any other medication, there will almost always be some type of side effect. Randall- adequate warnings from drs. in the US and warnings on the drug which cover side effects negates the corp's liability.
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Randall Webmaster Posts: 67133 From: Saturn next to Charmaine Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 10, 2016 02:01 PM
Even with warnings, they can still get sued if they knew (or should have known) about potential harm or damages that they did not adequately warn against. IP: Logged |
Randall Webmaster Posts: 67133 From: Saturn next to Charmaine Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 11, 2016 01:24 PM
Like you noted, the keyword is "adequate."IP: Logged |
Stawr Moderator Posts: 3761 From: N. America Registered: Nov 2010
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posted July 11, 2016 02:02 PM
Yep this scorpio 6th houser is not interested in retinoids. IP: Logged |
Stawr Moderator Posts: 3761 From: N. America Registered: Nov 2010
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posted July 11, 2016 02:03 PM
her skin looks good, and she kind of looks like the girl from Portlandia.IP: Logged |
MinceyMouse Knowflake Posts: 3877 From: Registered: Jan 2014
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posted July 11, 2016 10:07 PM
Also depends on the studies done in the US. The duty would be based on research done locally, not internationally. There isn't an international standard. The studies mentioned above.. all non-US. I would say it's unlikely to have them successfully sue in negligence because the standard just isn't there (or even breached). Once the studies are repeated in the US by a number of teams, then the clock starts running (if the neg standard is anything like Eng.). IP: Logged |
Randall Webmaster Posts: 67133 From: Saturn next to Charmaine Registered: Apr 2009
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posted July 12, 2016 11:39 AM
We have commercials all the time about this drug or that drug and asking if someone has taken it and experienced said harm(s) to join the class action suit. IP: Logged |
MinceyMouse Knowflake Posts: 3877 From: Registered: Jan 2014
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posted July 13, 2016 11:06 AM
I've seen it, but a class action on this will be based upon negligence. Malpractice? Not usually a matter for the courts, but for the medical association or the like which sets ethical standards. Just saying that it's unlikely to be successful as the national standard of care has probably not been breeched.Intiutively it makes sense that mucus membranes will suffer, however intuition and science aren't the same thing (sadly). If anyone has access to any scientific journal, could you see if this study has been conducted and repeated in the US? If it has, then it's likely that there would be some negligence and won't be thrown out prior to trial. IP: Logged |
Faith Knowflake Posts: 18372 From: Bella's Hair Salon Registered: Jul 2011
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posted July 14, 2016 12:26 PM
quote: Originally posted by MinceyMouse: Why are you so surprised about it? Retinoids destroy oil production, and are also cancer treatments.
Nobody actually warned me -- AT ALL -- that there could be a link here. I naively thought that my grocery store skincare product was going to be harmless for me. Maybe it would irritate my face as I was warned. But nothing more serious than that, right? The Food and Drug Administration loves me and protects me right? However, I had gut issues beginning soon after I started applying that cream nightly. Then I was watching a video of a woman with Crohn's/Celiac who's used retin-A (I think? Not sure of the exact product) for 28 years. That sparked my interest and some research, and this thread. As I said in my OP, then erased, for fear of sounding too frivolous: I trust my body. I do the same things over and over. Sometimes my diet is the same, day after day. So whenever I add a new product into my life or diet, if I get a new symptom at the same time, I associate them with each other: * I got migraine headaches from salicylic acid. Stopped the salicylic acid and no more migraines. * I had new, unprecendented gut trouble coinciding with using a retinoid cream. Maybe there is no link, but the research is interesting and compelling, as is the LACK of awareness about it. I mean, if this is happening, why aren't more people noticing it? Maybe because no one explained it could happen, and severed the cause-and-effect link in their minds? IP: Logged |
MinceyMouse Knowflake Posts: 3877 From: Registered: Jan 2014
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posted July 18, 2016 10:47 AM
Faith- I had no intention of harassing you or anything. Essentially, I was trying to figure out the merits of a possible negligence case for this. Did the jar you get have a warning label? As for my personal views about medicine in the USA- I don't trust the dosing requirements nor what the FDA approves as safe. I usually check to see if a similar drug is readily available in my home country and the UK to see if it is something which has been approved by other governments. Retinols, in my opinion, should not be available without a prescription in high doses because it does need some monitoring. If you want something for your face which does not seem to cause too many issues, I would recommend glycolic acids under the 15% threshold. I normally stay away from SA as it dries my skin out too much and causes the sides of my lips to crack. IP: Logged |
Faith Knowflake Posts: 18372 From: Bella's Hair Salon Registered: Jul 2011
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posted July 18, 2016 12:34 PM
I didn't feel harassed by you! Just exasperated with the state of medicine.Thanks for your recommendation of glycolic acid. I'll look into that. IP: Logged |