posted August 30, 2009 05:16 AM            

I'm wondering how Lilith conjunct the vertex and the MC would be in synastry.

posted August 30, 2009 05:41 AM            

No other aspect from ouer mean BML

I have no ide at all what that mean

With my sons father(4 years relationship) his mean BML con my nessus moon conj.
His north nod sextil his BML, my moon,nessus conj and his lust trine the BML, nessus, moon conj.

My moon are in big conflict to my merk,uran, pluto and saturn so i think BML to that are to much.

I was not far away to breaks down if i dont break off.

posted August 30, 2009 07:43 AM            

I dont have Vertex/MC experience however with my lastest r/ship:
His Lilith cj my lunar North Node within 1 degree (applying).

That doesn't sound good does it!

I read that Lilith can also indicate "the other woman". In my case, I wasn't the other woman, his ex was. I found it very hard to deal with as this has never happened to me before, and he was the first BF I've been with that I completely and utterly trusted! I have had two other boyfriends (one Scorpio and one Taurus) tell me that they still held a torch for their exes even though the exes didn't want to be with them. This of course hurt me at the time ... but this guy was different, he was very deceptive about the whole thing insisting they were just friends even at the start when she was upset he didnt tell her from the get-go that we were together (she found out about 3 weeks later) At the time I said "why did you feel the need to not tell her when you told everyone else and also why would she be crappy that she wasnt told if you are just friends?!". He is still trying to convince me that nothing was ever going on then when I know now, through investigation heh heh heh (yes I am Scorpio thru and thru really) that there was, at least emotionally, before we broke up. I said to him I know the truth and he told me that only he and this girl knew the truth and that I was just running on assumptions. I said I know you are lying! and he still denied anything ever went on. So I told him to go stick it where the sun don't shine and have a nice life full of lying, deception and manipulation lol. It's complex but he did try to manipulate me to believe that he really cared for me and that we can still be "best buds" even after all of this.. which worked for the first week until I connected the dots between events... This other woman manipulated him as they have been friends for 10 years yet decides to get crappy when we got together (he was single for 4 yrs before then - why didnt she get him then? She's been single that long too) and she didn't even know me. It's funny how she started talking to him more and more often after we got together. Plus when I said .. "well if she's worried about me, I'm more than happy to meet her!" he used to keep us separate (she would only visit on the nights I wasnt at his house).

So there's my dismal experience with Lilith - deception, lies and other woman ... he was also very jealous I was still friends with my ex. We discussed this when we got together he said he was okay with me to still talk to my ex as he talked to his ex too ... ultimately my ex and I remained purely friends on my part and I kept my BF informed if I ever went to visit the ex or drop the dog off to his house etc and I tried to get them to meet (though they wouldnt), whereas this girl/his ex from 10 yrs ago and him had something more going on.. and he only told me after we broke up that he suspected me an my ex had a thing still... which totally gobsmacked me as I was always upfront and honest and would rather have spent any day or night with him than my ex (This makes me think he was accusing me of this because he was the one guilty of doing it!).. I usually saw my ex when I had to drop the dog off to him to look after (we still share that as it was our dog) and to socialise my dog with his puppy as it's good for them, likewise I also take my dog to visit my other friends dogs too, for socialisation. Every single time I saw him, his housemate was there too. Twist in the story is that my ex was pretty cut that I was with someone new, and was very obvious about it. All in all on my part I was very upfront and honest with them both and never did a thing wrong i.e. told my ex that I was not interested in a relationship with him, was upfront and honest with my BF about what I did and why (and that my ex and I were still good friends), and I feel like I was the one who was trying to keep everyone happy! Regarding dealing with his ex - I just trusted him as I knew I could be trusted with my ex - until things started to surface that didn't make sense (eg him needing alone time, but then she would come over to visit him when I wasn't allowed to see him!) and then thats when the manipulation and lies started which I found out about more thoroughly after we broke up, and through joining the dots.

Totally glad to be out of that situation now and glad to have gotten to the bottom of the situation - his withdrawal towards the end and strange behaviour makes total sense to me now.

Have no idea where my lunar North Node comes into it, but Lilith certainly reared her ugly head in this case lol

Lilith Keywords: danger, darkness, deceit, destruction, devious, devouring, dreams, emptiness, enchantress, envy, fears, guilt, hatred, imagination, isolation, jealousy, magic, marriage-wrecker, mystery, night, poison, secrets, seduction, shame, the "other woman" who thinks a man needs rescuing from the "chains" of his partner, vengefulness

posted August 30, 2009 12:09 PM            

There are three Liliths. Lilith, Dark Moon, and Black Moon. But I feel they all describe the same power.

Here is some of the information I have collected in my attempt to understand....

Everything is comprised of an electron, a proton and a neutron. We have masculine and feminine and---what? Lilith. The place that Lilith occupies in the natal chart is fascinating. It is your point of divine creative power. Aspects made to Lilith by other planets and the sign Lilith is in all give clues to how you utilize that power or where you are afraid to express that power for fear of being exiled, abandoned, loathed and/or physically abused. Throughout history we have abused each other excessively and repeatedly in the name of Lilith though the name may not be spoken. It is time to be honest with ourselves, to see our individual responsibility for the assumption of our power and not to seek it outside of ourselves.

In synastry, you can think of the contacts like “permanent transits”. While you are around a person, they activate or wake up certain areas of your chart, certain planets, and visa versa. How you respond to that activation—love, joy, shyness, anger, fear—all depends on YOUR own relationship to the energies involved.

“…We all have Lilith’s plutonic quality in us, the unconscious energy that brings up harsh boundaries between life and death, ecstasy and suffering, passion and revulsion, enslavement and freedom. How do we honor Lilith in our lives? Do we exile her from consciousness or build her a sanctuary for potent, creative expression? When she contacts Eros, the answer to that question will be soon found in the heart of our erotic relationships.

Eros wants intense encounters that lead to lasting transformation. His touch can be sexual, creative and spiritual. Lilith, both Black Moon and Asteroid 1181, brings up deep and primal sexual energy sometimes accompanied by feelings of anger, rejection and rage. Her theme is power-alluring and irresistible.

Eros is looking for his equal to explore the realm of creative intimacy. Lilith is looking for sacred sex. If these two do meet, the results can be awesome, changing our lives in meaningful and lasting ways…”

How we respond to this activation by synastry contact has a lot to do with our own relationship to themes of power, sexuality and creative expression. All we can say is that “it wakes up”.

In generally, it feels wonderful when someone “touches” our Moon. We feel “known”, understood, nourished. It also can feel too vulnerable sometimes…like they see too deep inside us…the light shines on dark places that we wish to keep hidden.

Synastry with Lilith is a bit deeper than I'm in so far, but in general, I'd say that the instinctual attraction would be pretty high in this case ~ irresistibly magnetic, but the interactions could also lead either party into some torrid love situations, with questionable outcomes & the risk of of it turning REALLY ugly at some point, at least, is rather high ~ arguably unavoidable.

It speaks of a deeper, darker side of the moon energies, and it does seem so show a dark lesson or experience to be learned.
I would say it would be an exteremely strong connection between these people, in synastry it represents our Anima/Aminus or your true other half, the man/woman of your dreams.

Lilith in Synastry
"In a man's chart Black Moon Lilith can represent his creative muse or the type of woman most suited to him; but only if he is completely honest with himself. Therefore Lilith often indicates exactly the kind of woman a man would be most terrified of."

In later Hebrew myth Lilith she was the first woman, fashioned by God as an equal to Adam. She subsequently refused to lay down beneath and submit to him, because she wanted to be treated as an equal. Adam subsequently rejected her and took her children, so she flew away in a fury into the wilderness. Later Judaism and Christianty created from Lilith a full-fledged demon, who snatched children from the cradle. I guess the passive belief that a strong lilith dominant woman is a bad thing is in fact due to the religious perception of lilith. She is evil because she disobeyed the male hierarchy.

Another explanation of the lilith suggested by Marguerite Hafeman is that "where a Lilith point is located on a horoscope chart and the close aspects she makes to other planets by progression or transit can indicate quite precisely where one is to encounter the most frustration and difficulty in life, stemming from poor choices, succumbing to temptation or confused thinking. Also the reaping of karmic consequence for avoiding authentic expression of self and persisting in egocentric, inappropriately idealistic or exploitive behaviors that will bring about a downfall. Sexual perversion and mysogyny are other undesirable manifestations of a poorly aspected Lilith. "

She also goes on to suggest that all lilith troubles "spring from undeveloped portions of the self", which remain undeveloped because subconsiously we feel the need to repress the characteristics of the lilith. The soul reason for this, seems to be because those characteristics are viewed as societally wrong.

In a man’s chart, the lilith would be viewed as the underlying qualities of a woman that a man craves but feels ashamed for craving. Therefore, he continually seeks to repress his weakness for the attributes, while still looking for the signs of a strong lilith in a partner. The more dominant the lilith, the stronger it's part in his chart. Whereas, in a woman’s chart, the placing of the lilith would be the qualities a woman hides from the world because she is ashamed of them. The stronger the lilith, the more she feels the need to express herself.

Theoretically, if a man and a woman’s liliths conjunct, then they may find they draw out the inner attributes they both share. Strengthening the woman and seducing the man. Which could, theoretically result in a very content, emotionally open relationship and quite an intense attraction at first if both liliths are very strong in synastry. Another good aspect would be a trine, which might result in the lilith characteristics of each person being to flow freely creating a more emotionally open relationship, however, the effects of the lilith on the other person may not be as strong.

The Black Moon, as Lilith is called is little used and little known in astrology, and even where she is known she is little understood. This poem by Dante Gabriel Rossetti, more famed for his collaboration with Holman-Hunt and the pre-Raphaelite movement than his poetry, but undoubtedly a true Renaissance Man, hints at Lilith’s narcotic power. Evidently, according to Rosetti, Lilith has a primal allure, an ability to mesmerise, to enthral and ultimately to enslave. There is more than a hint of self-deception in the dark wiles of Lilith, a beckoning to deluded oblivion. She appears to take away men’s mind’s, their rational, objective selves, and lead them upon a journey to self-destruction and despair. A true black sorceress then, Lilith, we infer, has echoes of narcissism and compulsion in her drowsy refrain, and she might be safely discarded as a colourful – if bewitching – footnote in the astrology, if it were not for the very frightening frequency with which Lilith is found to be significant in the configurations of murderers, psychopaths and those who commit heinous acts quite beyond the ken of humanity at large.
Lilith in synastry can indicate such a 'deep' almost "dark" soulful connection that at times it's hard to pull away

It can symbolize a relationship that goes to hell and back in a way... a relationship that maybe triggers that obsessive/dark side of ourselves that we thought we left behind.

Dark Moon, Black Moon or Lilith, this hypothetical point in astrology is known by several names. Some argue that the Dark Moon is one thing, Black Moon another and Lilith yet another. The reality is that there is an asteroid named Lilith, but it is not the same as the Dark or Black Moon. However, when used as a point in a birthchart, all three names appear valid as they all seem to describe the same thing.

This point arises due to the Moon's path around the ecliptic forming an axis of the perigee when the moon's orbit is closest to the earth and the apogee when its orbit is furthest from the earth. It is an empty area, a void created, an empty focus. Moving at about 40 degrees a year, the perigee is from where the path of the Dark Moon is calculated. It takes a little under nine years for it to complete its course.

In astrology, the Dark Moon is representative of the darker side of our nature, the negative side. It is the hidden depths that we know exist yet we prefer not to acknowledge. It is subtle on the surface, yet profound beneath. It is the foundations of our personality and the shocking truth that we often deny and project onto others instead. The refusal to see what is really within ourselves. The subtle refusal to see what part we may have played in some unpleasant drama of our lives, how we ourselves have manifested our fears. It is the kind of thing that we intrinsically know we have to deal with, confront the darker side in order to progress unhindered, yet most often we try to ignore. It is the deeper truth that we are forever in search of within ourselves. Probably the best use we can make of the dark moon is to explore our hidden depths, realise that we all have that darker side and go within to resolve that which ultimately hinders us.

The Dark Moon is representative of the negative traits of guilt, shame, hatred, envy, and vengefulness, often brought about by personal wounds and hurts. The true dark side of things we try to hide.

There is another side of the Dark Moon astrologically. Carl G Jung, the famous psychoanalyst described something that he called the "anima". The anima is a man's image of the ideal woman and also the feminine side of his personality. For a woman it is the image of the ideal man and the masculine side of her personality. So the dark moon in a birthchart will represent these ideals too.

It is also representative of the enchantress or the seducer, one who lures another by use of sexuality or devious means. The kind who tempts another by implying that the grass is greener on the other side, that they can "rescue" someone, but it is in reality for their own selfish gain.

The Dark Moon, Lilith, also has associations with motherhood, like her counterpart the Moon. With Lilith however, the instinctive nurturing is replaced by a strong protection of her offspring to the point that she would kill if necessary any that threatened them or caused them harm. She is also reactive against the ties involved with motherhood and the emptiness that mothers sometimes feel by isolation and the perceived lack of individuality that accompanies it. These things do not only apply to women, they apply to men as well, as the Black Moon is also their feminine side.

Keywords: danger, darkness, deceit, destruction, devious, devouring, dreams, emptiness, enchantress, envy, fears, guilt, hatred, imagination, isolation, jealousy, magic, marriage-wrecker, mystery, night, poison, secrets, seduction, shame, the "other woman" who thinks a man needs rescuing from the "chains" of his partner, vengefulness

The manner in which the Dark Moon plays out will be of the character of the sign in which it is posited and with over tones of the ruling planet of that sign. For example, if your Dark Moon is in Aries, it will act in the manner of Aries with over tones of Mars.

Working with Lilith, I found that she provides us with valuable information. A German psychologist described it as the night side of the female - Lilith stands for independence, sexual activity and dissociates herself from motherhood. We know the moon as motherly, nourishing, instinctive principle. I take the view, that the moon in the end represents the earth in the horoscope, which I found proven a few months ago when scientists published the theory, that in the young and developing solar system, earth and moon had been one piece of cosmic matter before the moon split off the earth an became a celestial body of its own. Actually, it's the earth that is our nourishing mother - she and the sun carry all life down here! So, what we have here is the female, nourishing instinctive complex, shared among the earth and the moon. And now we have this empty, missing second focus here, the so-called Black Moon. It would appear that the black moon represents something from the female elemental force that's hidden in the shadow, that we repressed and that we are missing now in order to experience our complete, true self. In the current literature about Lilith I found no clue as to when exactly and by whom the the Black Moon had been called Lilith. But it makes sense to look for this mysterious missing female power in history among the ancient matriarchal goddesses and to pick up the trail of Lilith.

I will now try to paint a more positive, modern picture of Lilith. In my view, she represents a combination of the magic power of the dark goddess, the female instinct and the endeavor to be equal to the male. In the female chart, the embodiment of the ideal Lilith seems to be the woman, who is strong and consciously using her instincts, who is in monthly contact with her own blood, who takes control of her sexual power, who knows the rhythms of her body and controls contraception and pregnancy, whether she wants children or not, and if so, has no fear to give birth and experience this tour de force as a source of female strength. In the sexual act, she is sometimes above the male and sometimes below, just goes with the flow in the free interplay of forces between her and her partner. It's pretty obvious that a woman like that experiences conflicts when she gets into company with traditional-minded women and insecure men. She has to find her own way to live her forces in relationships and society.

The ideal Lilith has her effect on the male chart by making him attracted and attractive to strong women. A fair contact with proud and impressive women is no problem for him. A sign for a positive development of Lilith in the male horoscope seems to be, that more and more men get involved in the adventure of being there at child-birth, to consciously accompany their partner, to stand at her side throughout this deeply touching experience and to remain strong in the face of this female initiation. A typical remark of somebody with underdeveloped Lilith-forces concerning birth would be: "No I can't look at it - I wouldn't be able to feel sexual desire for my partner any more!"

No Illusions
But even with this more positive picture we should not have any illusions about the fact, that experiences with transiting as well as natal Lilith are often connected to feelings of pain and agony. That brings us back to the myth: Lilith cannot forget, that she was punished and tortured just because she wanted to act freely and according to her own will. That shows why Lilith often brings us into contact with uncontrollable emotions, desire for revenge and frightening sides of sexuality: That is whenever we got to the point where we had to give in, because as children we were in an inferior position or as adults we may have suppressed our true being because of social pressure, cowardice or indolence. However: Transiting Lilith confronts us with the pain that appears because we realize that we didn't live out our true nature - because we didn't want or were not allowed to be who we really are. This also seems to have a connection to the issue of homosexuality - especially when it's hidden or suppressed. In this case Lilith forces the chart-owner to stand by himself and be honest about his sexual preferences. My colleague Lianella Livaldi-Laun who has been working with Lilith for more then 10 years and has published two books about the black moon, mentions several cases in which Lilith in the male horoscope may indicate a hidden or obvious homosexuality and the fight to for acceptance.

Lilith in relationships
Lilith is no joke in relationships! Most people are not conscious about the forces of the goddess, much less, having integrated them. Thus, a date under the influence of Lilith may grow into a dangerous liaison, into painful, intense, obsessive or strange love affairs. Often it's a matter of male or female self-esteem, of power and powerlessness and of radical break-through. Lilith often uncovers hidden structures of suppression and confronts the partners with their true desires which they haven't lived out. If you look at Lilith under the aspect of being radically honest about your sexuality and your true feelings, its obviously not easy to get along in peace and harmony in a relationship when she is dominant.

posted August 30, 2009 12:52 PM            

My mom's Saturn is 3'04 Scorpio

so her Saturn conjuncts my Sun-true BML conjunction

I did find her to be a bit controlling,and got me to be rebellious quite a bit

also

my Uranus is in 15'17 Cancer,and my mean BML is in 16'48 Libra

Her Mercury is in 15'26 Cancer

so her Mercury squares my Uranus-mean BML conjunction, and I was very rebellious with her when it came to communications. I drove her nuts with my rebuttals,retorts,and what she called "getting smart" as well as sarcasm

My Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio conjunct her Moon in 18'51 Scorpio didn't help either.

I invoked extremely intense reactions from her.

I also feel that she had Lilith traits too

she doesn't have any close BML aspects in her regular chart

but looking at her Right Ascension (equatorial longitude) chart,
She has Sun trine true BML with 36 minutes

a woman's Moon in Scorpio in close conjunction to my Sun-true BML would probably be a bit intense. my Ixion is also in 5'25 Scorpio.
Ixion is a plutino,and so it's like Pluto. Therefore, it would be like her having Moon conjunct my Pluto.

Ixion could be very sexual,lusty..even more so than Pluto. There isn't any actual sexual stuff about Hades/Pluto in mythology. On the other hand, Ixion was mortal king who was punished for for his sexual advances with Hera,the chief goddess! He mated with a fake Hera that Zeus made for him to test him. From that union, sprang the centaurs which are lusty,wild,rebellious,nonconforming.
Interestingly,none of the centaurs in our solar system were discovered in the sign of Sagittarius but Ixion was. Therefore, it makes sense that astronomers named Ixion after the father of the centaurs. There was also a Venus trine Pluto at the time Ixion was discovered too which shows indicates the sexual nature of Ixion's astrological influence.

so a woman might not feel very comfortable with her Moon in close conjunction to my Sun for she might more intense,passionate with me but also bring out my rebellious,nonconformist nature more because her Sun also being in conjunction to my true BML and Ixion. She could activate the lusty,sexual side of me.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

posted August 30, 2009 04:21 PM            

Other woman? Jeez.....

posted August 30, 2009 10:41 PM            

I've been wondering about this lately. I noticed just a bit ago that in the composite of a relationship that was, from it's onset, strange, compelling, loving and yet repulsive at the same time, had BML conjunct North Node in Taurus 1 degree, with Venus conjunct Pluto in opposition in Scorpio. It was full of the same things that MsCandeh described; deception, lies, and jealousy, the "darkest" relationship I've ever had. When we were together (even just in the same room) it was like the air turned to soup. Everyone around us kinda would clear out lol. Attraction was instant, too. Like when you first make eye contact and KAPOW on both ends. Yet it was very disturbing and hard to be around each other because it was so intense.

I met someone else recently, and in this composite, NN is conjunct BML again, except the orb is even tighter (23 minutes)! Plus it is square a Sun/Mercury/Pluto conjunction. I haven't known him long enough to see how this will play out, but already it is difficult to be alone with him. It's not rational at all. He's a nice guy, its not the same as getting the creeps, it's just automatic. My feet move for me, sometimes literally, as if I was violating the laws of nature by being around him. Also the jealousy issue springs up for no rational reason on both ends, even though we barely know each other.

posted August 30, 2009 11:11 PM            

After I posted this thread last night, I had a dream that I was wearing a black vintage business suit and black 6-inch heels. I was walking through a field at night and there were men milling through the field, and faintly I could make out that they were wearing camouflage vests. They had hunting dogs with them, and it was hunting season.
I became aware that the dogs were hunting *ME* as I walked through the field. Here I was in my femme gear (black business with stilettos) and there were dogs after me. The men followed. I was really dispassionately observing the whole scene when I realized that one of the hunting dogs had caught me by the arm, and I felt his teeth dig into my skin, as he growled.
It's really strange... as I was waking up, I heard growls coming out of my own throat, as though I was growling back, or I WAS the snarling dog.

posted August 30, 2009 11:20 PM            

We have in composite
NN conj Sedna opposite BML conj Ixion
NN conj Sedna sext our venus conj mars
BML conj Ixion trine venus conj mars

I think its would freak out in sexuel obsession if we come each other more into. I will think its better to go off more than i did. He are so magnetic

posted August 30, 2009 11:39 PM            

quote:

---

I'm starting to think Lilith is the epitome of discomfort and attraction, and the void of how to reconcile the two things. If you like someone and want them... I mean WANT them...and yet need to look outside of that desire in order to look at the established norms of how to pace things...how to do them in some 'conventional' way....then you've met Lilith. And she's just doing her job by doing nothing at all.... nothing but existing.

---

posted August 31, 2009 12:14 AM            

He has a free astrology program that has a lot of astronomical features called Riyal.

LILITH AND THE BLACK MOON
by Juan Antonio Revilla

I. The True or Osculating Black Moon.

The true or osculating Black Moon is "a new arrival" into the pile of astrological "bodies" or sensitive points. It arrived in the early 90's, when it began to appear in published tables, at the same time than the centaurs. Like the centaurs, it requires research, hard work, and time. However, it is often neglected in place of the "mean" value, either because a lack of understanding of how fictitious the mean Black Moon is, or from the empirical evidence that validates it.

The Mean Apogee or Black Moon is an artifice, like the "fictitious Mean Sun" used by astronomers for the measurement of time. It moves very regularly, describing a perfect circle around the earth/moon barycenter (not the earth). Its movement is actually as round and regular as the hands of a clock and it is very easy to calculate. This roundness of its motion is not a good representative of the nocturnal and magic demoness Lilith; roundness and steady motion belongs to the Sun; it is alien to the world of the Moon.

The Osculating Apogee, on the other hand, represents the shape of the lunar orbit at one specific instant of time. It is not averaged as the mean apogee, and it is already geocentric, unlike the mean apogee. Some people reject it because it doesn't make any sense to them to have it swing as much as 30 degrees from the mean position and have abrupt and irregular changes of velocity and direction, but I think it is precisely this erratic behavior what makes it the best representative of the irrational, instinctive, and primal symbolism of Lilith.

This True Black Moon does not have the decades of astrological and interpretative elaboration that the Mean Black Moon has. It has been available only after 1992. You won't find simplistic formulas to make its interpretation easy. It requires research and willingness to try the new. It needs not receive the conventional meanings given to the round and astronomically featureless Mean Black Moon; but, as far as I am concerned, is the best symbolical representative of the demonical, nocturnal, and primal Lilith.

NOTE: for a long and detailed discussion of the astronomical difficulties and alternatives involved in the definition of the Black Moon, see my old compilation "An Astronomical Discussion of the Black Moon Lilith". For an answer to the common objections to the use of the osculating apogee, see my latest essay " Variants of the Apogee".

II. Astronomical Symbolism.

One important distinction is that the apogee/perigee axis is very different from the ascending/descending nodes axis, because at the nodes there is an intersection of 2 planes, like a meeting, or a door from one level to another, or a confluence of 2 worlds (the lunar and the earth realms).

But the apogee or the empty focus of the lunar orbit is a purely lunar realm. It is not in contact with anything. It is only the Moon per se, in isolation from everything else... therefore they are different concepts or orbital symbols. The apogee/empty focus (="kenofocus") is really like a womb, a receptacle, an accumulator, a point of emptiness...

As part of the "emptiness", this empty focus is also the place of dreams, the garden of desires, the pot at the end of the rainbow, the "impossible dream", the "primal mate", the twin-soul, etc... but this place is very, very dangerous... it can devour you like a whirlpool!

NOTE: everything here refers to the osculating lunar apogee, not the mean apogee. If astronomical symbolism must match astrological symbolism, then the mean apogee is very alien to this symbolism.

Astronomically, the Black Moon is an isolated point, a point of neglect, repression, fermentation, and "magical" transformations that belong to a phantasmal, nocturnal, and instinctive/erotic world. It contains all the more instinctual energies (including the atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance, which is dependent on bodily functions) deep within the psyche, of which sexuality is of course paramount, and which manifest themselves in fairy tales and in primitive lunar symbolism: the night, the mystery, the magic, the danger, the secret, the fear, that which is forbidden...

There is a dynamics between the 2 foci, they are seeing each other, like 2 twins, although one is physical and has weight while the other is absent and ghostly. It represents an absence, a ghost, an emptiness, like the emptiness of the womb or an unattainable ideal. Seen dynamically, there will be important differences between men and women... which is part of the dynamics of the 2 foci seen each other and getting polarized, fighting against a ghost and against emptiness, or trying to attain its invisible and ideal part.

One way of seeing its more negative manifestations, thinking on the "neglect" and "emptiness" of the empty focus of the Moon's orbit, is that the Black Moon is a reaction against the "reproductive" and mothering role which "chains" women and leaves them "empty" as individuals. Lilith can be seen as the polar opposite of this kind of woman, which, in turn, is a reaction against all sorts of forces that try to castrate a person.

III. The Psychological Realm of the Great Mother.

Pshychologically, the symbolism of Lilith belongs to the Mother Archetype, especially in its manifestations of the Terrible Mother. Let me make a few short quotes from Jung in "Psychological aspects of the Mother Archetype":

<<Evil symbols are the witch, the dragon (or any devouring and entwining animal, such as a large fish or a serpent), the grave, the sarcophagus, deep water, death, nightmares and bogies (Empusa, Lilith, etc.)...>>

<<On the negative side the mother archetype may connote anything secret, hidden, dark; the abyss, the world of the dead, anything that devours, seduces, and poisons, that is terrifying and inescapable like fate.>>

<<The effects of the mother complex on the son may be seen in the ideology of the Cybele and Attis type: self-castration, madness, and early death.>>

The following quote by another Jungian (Eric Neumann, in "The Origins and History of Consciousness") can almost be read as some modern astrological descriptions of Lilith:

<<Thus the Great Mother is uroboric: terrible and devouring, beneficent and creative; a helper, but also alluring and destructive; a maddening enchantress, yet a bringer of wisdom; bestial and divine, voluptuous harlot and inviolable virgin, immemorially old and eternally young...>>

Jung divided the "mother complex" as it manifests in women in 4 different types (which I always related to the 4 "big four" traditional asteroids). Lilith incarnates several aspects of what Jung calls "the overdeveloped eros", which can manifest like, for example, a tendency toward "the unscrupulous wrecking of marriages". It often is the reaction against the purely instinctive and all-devouring "thrall of nature" mother:

<<The reactive intensification of the daughter's eros is aimed at some man who ought to be rescued from the preponderance of the female-maternal element in his life...>> (id.)

NOTE: for an illustration of the "terrible/castrating mother" astrological role of the Black Moon, read the material on "Tchaikovsky and the Black Moon".

The Black Moon takes hold of our emotions. It is a reactive point, never a point of integration. As such, it can cause strong identifications or very powerful projections of unconscious emotions which may not be recognized as such. My feeling is that the Black Moon always works at this reactive level.

Many of the characteristics of the Black Moon --and of the character of the legendary Lilith-- can be explained with the principle of "reaction formation ", defined as "an internal defense mechanism in which a no longer gratifiable motive (or one gratifiable only under threat of punishment) is replaced by a motive at the other end of the existing continuum" [ref.: "Dictionary of Psychology", Vol. 2, p.907, ed. Eysenck, Arnold and Meili, Fontana/Collins, 1975]

[The authors give the following explanation: <<Primitive manipulation wishes (e.g. daubing) no longer satisfiable as formerly are released through violent desire for contact (which occurs much more often because of its minimal satisfaction value), prodigality through thrift, obscenity through extreme politeness, disappointed love through malevolent pursuit of the beloved. Characteristics of reaction formation are the lack of ordinary, average forms of motive satisfaction and the inability to take advantage of the many possibilities of satisfaction as circumstances change, except by rigid adherence to extreme forms of gratification.>>]

IV. Atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance.

The astronomical counterpart of the earth is the Sun, not the empty focus of the lunar orbit. Integration is always in the direction of the Sun. The astrological Moon is where the unconscious emotions may become conscious, but the Black Moon, isolated and hot/cold, fire and ice, Unicorn-like, is like a place where there is never light, where it is always dreamy, like the dark side of the Moon. For this reason it may be a point where "consciousness" and energy may concentrate, but it is a slumber type of consciousness, an "entrance" into a world where knowledge is acquired by dreaming, not by thinking...

The way I'm using "magic" regarding the Black Moon is in the more traditional sense, related to occultism and "ancient" magicians like the legendary Merlin. This is to me the realm of the Black Moon, which we can see full-blown in legends, myths, and fairy tales. They all talk of things that are very "real" but not physical, or belonging to a time when the Earth itself was not as physical as today, and when people lived more in the astral than in the physical plane. In a nutshell, it is the "astral" or imaginative world, where things do indeed change shape constantly.

I believe that, today, we misinterpret many of the ancient --even medieval-- traditions and legends because we expect them to refer to a world like ours, while the truth --to me-- is that pre-enlightenment people had an atavistic clairvoyance and wisdom, which in occultism is related to the dark Moon and dark Sun forces-- that allowed them to perceive many things that people today do not perceive any more. The Dark or Black Moon, because of its astronomical symbolism, is for me the best tool there is to represent this "occult" level of reality, the world that is at the other side of the mirror, or, if you want it, the "Twilight Zone".

They had access to levels of perception that we don't have today, or only few people have what was common for them: atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance. Becuase of this, we "explain out" what looks as fantasy for us, ignoring that it was real experience for them. For example, succubi and incubi ("evil" Lilithian spirits) do exist today as they did back then, but because we do not normally perceive or "see" them (they can be perceived and seen in action under abnormal circumstances), we *believe* they are just "childish" explanations of their fears or lack of psychological and medical knowledge. There is a fashion today of "angels", which looks quite shallow when we realize how much the dark side of the spirit world is ignored, making it more powerful.

Bats represent this very well, for example, or gargoyles, among many other things The demoness Lilith and her different guises --putting aside the modern feminist approach which pretends to wipe the "demon" part-- is to me a very good mythological figure for this.

Like Hekate, the Black Moon is a "Queen of the Night", and negatively it is demonic (black magic) and vampiresque, while positively it is related to sexual initiation and transformational magic, a symbolic and oniric/artistic/imaginative world of primal wisdom that resists rationalization.

V. Lilith and the demon world.

Often, regarding Lilith, the traditional negative or "demonic" associations are rejected as being the result of the judeo-christian "male superiority" and "ego" ideologies. But this doesn't change to me the fact that there are still many demons inside of both men and women, and that the world of the night with all its mystery and magic still exists, although in areas and in ways different from those of the past.

Neither "castration" nor "sexuality" are limited to genitality. Especially from the mythical Lilith point of view, associated with the Genesis story, where sexuality marks the beginning of consciousness. I still feel that Lilith is strongly related to a woman's man inside, and man's woman inside, and how one deals with that. "Demons" are treated differently today, seen more as social and psychological projections, but they are still at work in man and in woman, and are strongly related to sexuality, like consciousness. We all have our nights, our night-world. I would personally never loose sight of the symbolism of the night regarding the Black Moon. In my book, Lilith is never fully alive and awake. That is the Sun. A Lilithan person can become solar, but Lilith must remain Lilith.

"Demons", "castration", "darkness", psychological "vampirism", "succubi" and "incubi", and all the other "terrible mother" manifestations associated with the demonic "evil" aspect of Lilith are all part of the psyche of men and women, appearing today in different guises, and the "Black"/"Dark" Moon are excellent astrological and astronomical symbols for them. To me, the Black Moon belongs to the world of the dark and the womb, in both its terrible and its more positive transformational magic aspects.

I am not saying that the Black Moon is *only* this. All the modern psychological interpretations of ancient demonical and magical lore, are another face of the same thing, which can be both very "good" and very "evil". By ignoring our shadows we make them more powerful.

Powerlessness and abuse suffered in early life can create very strong reaction formations that make people "hate" their own vulnerability and feelings, and this can manifest outward as feelings against those that show these traits. All this can be very complicated, "twisted", and dark. Sexuality is often the playground of unconscious reactions of this type, and the more negative or demonic traits of the Lilith legend can be (and are often in the literature) explained this way.

VI. The Emancipation of Women

I feel the Black Moon is also related to the emancipation of women from their "womb" destiny, their sexual liberation. But the Black Moon is a reactive point astronomically, a point where a lot of energy can concentrate but which cannot "integrate" or "bring liberation" by itself. It is more like a pot, or a pit... it cannot be "an integrated woman". That is why I think the modern "redemptive" transformations of the Lilith figure are probably better seen in other bodies capable of transcendence (unlike the Black Moon), such as the centaurs

A girl may have a reactive defense mechanism against the mother, and refuse to submit to "nature", especially if she doesn't feel loved by his father. A loving and strong father will make her use her masculinity to fight integratively in a harmonious assertion of her womanhood. Then probably other feminine asteroids take over, those that deal with a woman's creative role in the community (the main belt), or with transcendent excursions into the prohibited or illicit regions of the centaurs (and to a larger extent, of the Damocloids). These are the ones that break the rules and jump fences and tabus.

The Black Moon is not a dynamic point. It is only reactive, an accumulator or attractor. If it becomes too strong, or if the woman identifies with the Lilith archetype too much, then it becomes a point of rejection and negation, like a no-Moon, an anti-Moon. Perhaps it could be seen as the point where a woman's "destiny in chains" consequence of her "womb" or of her enslaved sexuality is trying to engulf her, and the result may be either the acceptance of her own and ancestral past and its creative transcendence by "jumping" into the more dynamic world of the (also dark) asteroids and centaurs, or the surrender to the neurotic identification with an archetype (in this case, Lilith).

The Lilith archetype, then, can be found in several different astronomical bodies or points, each expressing a different aspect of the archetype according to its astronomical and orbital symbolism. I have often expressed my opinion that there are Lilithian overtones in the centaur Chariklo, for example. Recall my keywords for Chariklo:

matriarchate, the Queen of spades, mature passions sadness, widowhood, illicit love caring for the sick, the dying, the weak sober celebration, moral emancipation and freedom .

There are probably many Lilith associations of the Black Moon that belong more properly to the asteroid 1181 Lilith or to centaurs like Chariklo. Astronomically speaking, 1181 is a social asteroid, but the Black Moon is not a social point. I think a separation is useful, and perhaps sexual equality issues are better measured by the asteroid or by the female centaurs, since it has to do with the (changing) values and costumes in a society.

The Damocloids (1999RG33, 1999LD31, etc) for example, not yet named and more assertive (and with better calculated orbits) than the centaurs, look as very good candidates to incarnate the more tabu and prejudice-breaking aspects of Lilith's modern (good and evil) transformations.

The level in which the Black Moon (not necessarily Lilith!) works is very primal and stemming from sexuality and body-energies --which is not the same as genitality-- while the asteroid 1181 Lilith is (or should be from its astronomical characteristics) more concerned with community or more social issues. The Black Moon is more related to the past, to the origins, to the "uroboric mother".

VII. Conclusions.

When I first started to visualize the centaurs, because of their orbits which can be associated with jetsam, chaos, and fragmentation (also, mythologically, with what is "raw" and wild), I felt that the "shadow" aspect of our personality, memory, history, etc., could be related to them. I still feel that way, but as my mind began to settle about what of the alternative "Black Moons" to use, I am beginning to incorporate its symbolism, which, obviously, works at a different level than the centaurs, the level of the Lunar world in the "occult" way, i.e., more a function of the womb-mother-body energies, including atavistic wisdom and dream-like spiritual perception.

With the centaurs, as with the Black Moon, something similar happens when dealing with the idea of "fragmentation" which they --among many other things-- represent. Their action CAN result in a further and higher integration of the individual, but this integration, at least in my opinion, is no longer them, but other planets, especially Jupiter and the Sun. It is the Sun what represents the spiritual individuality. Lilith --the empty focus of the Moon-- could never represent that.

I have always argued for a differentiation or separation of levels when one is interpreting, i.e., an asteroid cannot be interpreted in the same level than the empty focus of the Moon's orbit (the true osculating Black Moon), in the same way than a centaur or trans-neptunian cannot be interpreted like a main-belt asteroid.

Perhaps it is here where the role of the Lilithian asteroids becomes important. They represent higher levels of the Lilith function, from the Hekates and Lilith-likes of the main belt working on the social-community level to the feminine centaurs breaking all the rules and transgressing the established moralities, giving the archetype Lilith the opportunity to be free from the emptiness of the lunar womb, and become really cosmic, a "citizen of the galaxy".

SUMMARY

1-) The lunar apogee or "Black Moon" and the archetype "Lilith" are not the same thing. Lilith extends beyond the lunar realm and transcends it, it can manifest in different asteroids/planets or astrological factors. Especially the more redemptive aspects of Lilith (the emancipation of women) cannot belong to the lunar apogee (NOTE: this is developed at length here)

2-) The symbolism of the Black Moon cannot go beyond what the Moon represents, and it is not the Moon but a "ghost", a point of its orbit that is isolated. It is not a planet in its orbit, but a reflection of it "that is not there", a point that is empty, a no-Moon.

3-) Psychologically, it is a point that represents how we react to its emptiness, isolation, and unapproachability. But we don't react with it, we react with what we are equipped with (planets, the Sun especially). The reaction can "make us free" from it or redeem us, or it can drag us towards it like a whirlpool.

4-) The Black Moon is totally lunar, it is the dark/oniric aspect of the lunar realm. Each astrological factor has its own scope, it belongs to its own sphere or realm. The "emancipation" of Lilith, symbolically, is Lilith being liberated from the Black Moon, which is its cage.

http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/lilith.html

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

posted August 31, 2009 01:19 AM            

Marilyn Monroe
Norma Jeane Mortenson (on BC)
Actress
Monroe was the sex symbol of the century, and emotionally fragile. Raped at eleven and passed between relatives whilst her mother endured a long stay in a mental hospital, Monroe began her career as a photographer's model, and from 1950, was appearing on film. After her involvement with the Kennedy brothers, John and Robert, there was much speculation surrounding the cause of her death on 5 August 1962, Brentwood, California.

true BML in 12'50 Leo in 12th
conjunct Ascendant in 13'04 Leo

posted August 31, 2009 02:31 AM            

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted August 31, 2009 04:37 AM            

Which LILITH are you using please?

posted August 31, 2009 04:56 AM            

I hope the life will get us the possible to develope someting. I will if I get be his friend.

posted August 31, 2009 10:09 AM            

I was using my Solar Fire program. I chose the true Black Moon Lilith option

that's h13 at astro.com

Kingsley was also using the true Black Moon Lilith

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted August 31, 2009 12:19 PM            

My BML is also trine his 7th house ruler.

It's hard to pinpoint how this plays out. The first thing that's coming to mind is he hates it when I play polite with him. He likes me to be 100% real, even when it hurts. The reason being he wants to know all of me and me all of him. It drives him crazy when he can tell I'm holding back my thoughts and feelings from him. He likes my diplomacy and reasonableness with the world, but loves when I throw back the covers and let him in deeper than that.

posted August 31, 2009 02:05 PM            

Lilith is the mean lunar apogee.....that's the one where you can highlight along with the major asteroids,some transneptunians,Vertex,Part of Fortune

Black Moon Lilith h21 is probably the corrected lunar apogee.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted August 31, 2009 02:09 PM            

this is what it says

Lilith and Priapus

h13 Osculating Lunar Apogee ("True" Lilith / Black Moon)
h21 Interpolated Lunar Apogee (Lilith), also called 'Natural Apogee'
h22 Interpolated Lunar Perigee (Priapus), also called 'Natural Perigee'

h58 Waldemath Black Moon
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/hyplist.htm

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”