posted April 08, 2015 01:14 AM            

quote:

---

He believed himself to be deeply and truly in love with her, a kind of love he had never felt before and would never feel again... but he was convinced, beyond all else, that she did not then, and would never love him back. There was nothing that could change his mind.

She thought of his love as false, a mere figment of his colourful imagination. In her mind he was too wrapped up in his own inner world - and incapable of ever feeling the kind of love she felt for him. She felt rejected and unwanted as he constantly tried to push her away (believing, as he did, that she didn't love him back).

He ended his life because he was in too much pain, feeling rejected by someone who was, in truth, not rejecting him at all.
That same night she ended her own life - feeling the exact same way he felt.

---

posted April 08, 2015 07:03 AM            

Saturn can sometimes allude to this as well, possibly.
especially if meshed with Neptune.

I suspect that this is what - at least at a time - happened between Mr Sag and me. possibly mutually even.

he`s got natally a square between ruler of 5th house (Moon) and 11th house (Saturn), with Moon on the MC and Saturn on the DESC.
You could also say his 5th house ruler is squared by Saturn.

There is a conflict in the way he expresses his feelings and falls in love even, with how he receives loves and the feeling of being loveable. No matter what he does, how creatively he expresses himself, it seems to never be enough to make him believe he is worthy of being loved (the shadow face of Saturn as ruler of 11th house on the DESC in a terse square aspect). Always feleing he has to work really hard to make himself loveable and thus needing a lot of personal attention (which is probably why he NEED that personal contact with his audience, it is sort of still at a safe distance, but calms at least some of that insecurity he has inside in terms of personal relationships).

How do I come in here now?
Well my Sun-Mercury-conjunction falls right onto his Sun-Moon-conjunction on his MC.
Sinc eit is is on his MC it is angular and cannot be ignored, it is so visible, though of course on a more official level, and it means my Sun is conjunct his 5th house ruler, which is his Moon also.
There is something about me that stands out to him, he can`t ignore me (and he never has), even though he may not like it. After all HE is the star, yet when I am around, it seems like the spotlight - sometimes literally goes to me. The way he gravitates to me, at least during the safety of the show, somehow make it seem like the stage is really where I am, BECAUSE he will be focusing his attention there, of course. ONly reason for that. I am not that exciting of a person actually. lol

But at the same time this of course activates the square to his Saturn, and while you could say he inhibits ME, being Saturn and all, I sort of find that this is a REACTION on Saturn`s part, reacting to the activation of a very vulnerable part in a personality (unlike with Chirons wound though, Saturn tries to cover it up with control and strenght or whatever). The vulnerability that represents Satrn to him is that it is the ruler of 11th house on DESC, so he might be feeling that while he feels drawn to me for what reason ever, I get his attention and maybe even inspire him a little (my Sun conjunct his 5th house ruler) , I wouldn`t ever really like him back (my Sun square his very vulnerable 11th house ruler), or he would have to work VERY hard to get my approval, and probably opt for trying to keep me or his feelings under control, and keeping them in a box or secure surrounding where he feels like he will not hurt his pride (his Sun is on his MC after all ) too much.

For me on the other hand, with my isolated Sun-MErcury-conjunction, it is very new to be in the centre of so much attention, and quite positive one on the one hand (his Sun-Moon-MC conjunct it), but on the other hand since my Sun is no Saturnian Sun, it`s a bit like when I notice this push-and-pull theme in him, my Sun goes like: "What`s your problem, dude?"
And of course noticing the distancing act, in exchange for the strong attention put on me at the same time, feels quite unusual for my Sun.

However it DOES tie into my Moon-Saturn-quinkunx, and seems to simply reemphasize what I have inside, with Moon and Saturn ruling the 2nd and 8th house axis and being positioned in these houses (mutual house reception), and so tying into the isues surrounding selfworth I clearly harbour which spills over into (intimate) relationship also. So my Moon-Saturn-sais: "of course he doesn`t like me. Why should he? I have nothing to offer, not in terms of my physicalSelf nor in terms of sexual intimacy." (2nd and 8th house symbolism!)

Still his 8th house ruler pluto, placed in 7th house, trines my Moon, ruler of my 8th house, placed in 2nd house, sais there could be a smooth interchange on the 8th house level, if only....

Well my Saturn, ruler of my 2nd house, conjuncts his 5th house cusp. while the 2nd house ruler transporting my physical Self, sort of, touching his 5th house, actually could add to a creative, physical or even romantic spark on his behalf, it is my Saturn. staring wide eyed into this big and nasty and hurtful world, always always expecting to be hurt (my Saturn is in Cancer after all - so much fear surrounding emotional issues), so it rather draws back in its shell. Do not show that soft underbelly, someone might cut you open, just for the fun of it!

Ironically that self-control, holding back, seemingly rejecting everyone (including him) that might get too close, is reemphasizing and confirming what he is expecting to experience anyway (his Saturn squaring his 5th house ruler; who would ever love me for the way I express myself?)

And put to that that my Saturn is squaring his Pluto widely, my 2nd ruler to his 8th ruler, saying from my perspective: I am not worthy enough (Saturn 2nd house ruler) or I am not what you need in terms of a sexually deep meaningful intimate relationship (Pluto his 8th house ruler in his 7th house).

And yet at the same time this Pluto of his trines my Moon. so his 8th house ruler in his 7th house trine my 8th house ruler in my 2nd house.

Well to make this story a little shorter, I think what you describe is an issue of the fixed cross mainly, possibly involving Saturn and/or Chiron and the outer planets in tense aspect to rulers or planets associated with the fixed cross and as I suspect involving the cardinal cross somehow, or the relationship planets.

In our case our fixed cross issues fit each other superbly, and acting as mirrors.

my 5th house ruler (Venus) in 1st squares my 11th house ruler (Pluto) on the MC.

his 5th house ruler (Moon) on the MC squares his 11th house ruler (Saturn) on the DESC.

And to activate that mirror, my Sun and Mercury fall onto his Moon and are being squared by his Saturn.

Interestingly it is not quite as bad for my 5th/ 11th axis, as there are no tense synastric aspects, in fact his trine of Chiron to the Mars-Jupiter-conjunction in his charts makes a Grand trine with my 1st house Venus, ruling my 5th house.

As for my 11th house ruler Pluto, not too strong aspects, however it is exactly sextile his Mercury on my ASC-NN, with mercury ruling his 7th house.
Using traditional rulers, my 11th house ruler would be Mars, and that is conjunct his Mercury, so in both cases Mercury, both times DESC-ruler for both of us, plays his role.

Bu then there are the other ones of the fixed cross, and that is where it gets emotionally exhausting for me and him all the same.

my Saturn (ruler of 2nd) in 8th quinkunx my Moon (ruler of 8th) in 2nd
(and luckily trine chartruler jupiter )

his Venus (ruler of 2nd) in 11th square his Pluto (ruler of 8th) in 7th
(luckily his Venus is also trine his Saturn though, and sextile his Uranus, to add a little breathing pause).

Well my Saturn squares his Pluto (and cp his Venus), while my Moon trines his Pluto.

posted April 08, 2015 07:03 AM            

Saturn can sometimes allude to this as well, possibly.
especially if meshed with Neptune.

---------------------------------------

I suspect that this is what - at least at a time - happened between Mr Sag and me. possibly mutually even.

he`s got natally a square between ruler of 5th house (Moon) and 11th house (Saturn), with Moon on the MC and Saturn on the DESC.
You could also say his 5th house ruler is squared by Saturn.

There is a conflict in the way he expresses his feelings and falls in love even, with how he receives loves and the feeling of being loveable. No matter what he does, how creatively he expresses himself, it seems to never be enough to make him believe he is worthy of being loved (the shadow face of Saturn as ruler of 11th house on the DESC in a terse square aspect). Always feleing he has to work really hard to make himself loveable and thus needing a lot of personal attention (which is probably why he NEED that personal contact with his audience, it is sort of still at a safe distance, but calms at least some of that insecurity he has inside in terms of personal relationships).

How do I come in here now?
Well my Sun-Mercury-conjunction falls right onto his Sun-Moon-conjunction on his MC.
Sinc eit is is on his MC it is angular and cannot be ignored, it is so visible, though of course on a more official level, and it means my Sun is conjunct his 5th house ruler, which is his Moon also.
There is something about me that stands out to him, he can`t ignore me (and he never has), even though he may not like it. After all HE is the star, yet when I am around, it seems like the spotlight - sometimes literally goes to me. The way he gravitates to me, at least during the safety of the show, somehow make it seem like the stage is really where I am, BECAUSE he will be focusing his attention there, of course. ONly reason for that. I am not that exciting of a person actually. lol

But at the same time this of course activates the square to his Saturn, and while you could say he inhibits ME, being Saturn and all, I sort of find that this is a REACTION on Saturn`s part, reacting to the activation of a very vulnerable part in a personality (unlike with Chirons wound though, Saturn tries to cover it up with control and strenght or whatever). The vulnerability that represents Satrn to him is that it is the ruler of 11th house on DESC, so he might be feeling that while he feels drawn to me for what reason ever, I get his attention and maybe even inspire him a little (my Sun conjunct his 5th house ruler) , I wouldn`t ever really like him back (my Sun square his very vulnerable 11th house ruler), or he would have to work VERY hard to get my approval, and probably opt for trying to keep me or his feelings under control, and keeping them in a box or secure surrounding where he feels like he will not hurt his pride (his Sun is on his MC after all ) too much.

For me on the other hand, with my isolated Sun-MErcury-conjunction, it is very new to be in the centre of so much attention, and quite positive one on the one hand (his Sun-Moon-MC conjunct it), but on the other hand since my Sun is no Saturnian Sun, it`s a bit like when I notice this push-and-pull theme in him, my Sun goes like: "What`s your problem, dude?"
And of course noticing the distancing act, in exchange for the strong attention put on me at the same time, feels quite unusual for my Sun.

However it DOES tie into my Moon-Saturn-quinkunx, and seems to simply reemphasize what I have inside, with Moon and Saturn ruling the 2nd and 8th house axis and being positioned in these houses (mutual house reception), and so tying into the isues surrounding selfworth I clearly harbour which spills over into (intimate) relationship also. So my Moon-Saturn-sais: "of course he doesn`t like me. Why should he? I have nothing to offer, not in terms of my physicalSelf nor in terms of sexual intimacy." (2nd and 8th house symbolism!)

Still his 8th house ruler pluto, placed in 7th house, trines my Moon, ruler of my 8th house, placed in 2nd house, sais there could be a smooth interchange on the 8th house level, if only....

Well my Saturn, ruler of my 2nd house, conjuncts his 5th house cusp. while the 2nd house ruler transporting my physical Self, sort of, touching his 5th house, actually could add to a creative, physical or even romantic spark on his behalf, it is my Saturn. staring wide eyed into this big and nasty and hurtful world, always always expecting to be hurt (my Saturn is in Cancer after all - so much fear surrounding emotional issues), so it rather draws back in its shell. Do not show that soft underbelly, someone might cut you open, just for the fun of it!

Ironically that self-control, holding back, seemingly rejecting everyone (including him) that might get too close, is reemphasizing and confirming what he is expecting to experience anyway (his Saturn squaring his 5th house ruler; who would ever love me for the way I express myself?)

And put to that that my Saturn is squaring his Pluto widely, my 2nd ruler to his 8th ruler, saying from my perspective: I am not worthy enough (Saturn 2nd house ruler) or I am not what you need in terms of a sexually deep meaningful intimate relationship (Pluto his 8th house ruler in his 7th house).

And yet at the same time this Pluto of his trines my Moon. so his 8th house ruler in his 7th house trine my 8th house ruler in my 2nd house.

-------------------------------------------
Well to make this story a little shorter, I think what you describe is an issue of the fixed cross mainly, possibly involving Saturn and/or Chiron and the outer planets in tense aspect to rulers or planets associated with the fixed cross and as I suspect involving the cardinal cross somehow, or the relationship planets.

-----------------------------------------
In our case our fixed cross issues fit each other superbly, and acting as mirrors.

my 5th house ruler (Venus) in 1st squares my 11th house ruler (Pluto) on the MC.

his 5th house ruler (Moon) on the MC squares his 11th house ruler (Saturn) on the DESC.

And to activate that mirror, my Sun and Mercury fall onto his Moon and are being squared by his Saturn.

Interestingly it is not quite as bad for my 5th/ 11th axis, as there are no tense synastric aspects, in fact his trine of Chiron to the Mars-Jupiter-conjunction in his charts makes a Grand trine with my 1st house Venus, ruling my 5th house.

As for my 11th house ruler Pluto, not too strong aspects, however it is exactly sextile his Mercury on my ASC-NN, with mercury ruling his 7th house.
Using traditional rulers, my 11th house ruler would be Mars, and that is conjunct his Mercury, so in both cases Mercury, both times DESC-ruler for both of us, plays his role.

Bu then there are the other ones of the fixed cross, and that is where it gets emotionally exhausting for me and him all the same.

my Saturn (ruler of 2nd) in 8th quinkunx my Moon (ruler of 8th) in 2nd
(and luckily trine chartruler jupiter )

his Venus (ruler of 2nd) in 11th square his Pluto (ruler of 8th) in 7th
(luckily his Venus is also trine his Saturn though, and sextile his Uranus, to add a little breathing pause).

Well my Saturn squares his Pluto (and cp his Venus), while my Moon trines his Pluto.

EDIT
Interestingly these issues surrounding Venus-Pluto and Moon-Saturn (ruling the complete fixed cross for each of us, and I find it is a funny coincidence how the axis-rulers are interchanged) are being sort of emphasized in the Draconic chart as well.

his Dr Moon opposite my Dr Pluto
his Dr saturn conjunct my Dr Venus

hence bringing his 5th ruler to my 11th ruler and his 11th ruler to my 5th ruler in the Draconics.

posted April 08, 2015 01:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Odette:
The following is mostly fictive. But I'm curious what astrological aspects you think could lead to such star-crossed lovers?

'He believed himself to be deeply and truly in love with her, a kind of love he had never felt before and would never feel again... but he was convinced, beyond all else, that she did not then, and would never love him back. There was nothing that could change his mind.

She thought of his love as false, a mere figment of his colourful imagination. In her mind he was too wrapped up in his own inner world - and incapable of ever feeling the kind of love she felt for him. She felt rejected and unwanted as he constantly tried to push her away (believing, as he did, that she didn't love him back).

He ended his life because he was in too much pain, feeling rejected by someone who was, in truth, not rejecting him at all. That same night she ended her own life - feeling the exact same way he felt.

---

Intriguing. Reminds me a lot of one of the major themes in my actual fiction. The miscommunication, disbelief, and confusion over what actually is real love.

In the story, it's failure to communicate it, and one character being inherently manipulative and deceptive. So he's thought to ALWAYS be deceptive, even when he's actually telling the truth! Tragic. So, she doesn't believe his love is true.

More of a bizarre murder-suicide than a true double suicide, however. But she doesn't fight it -- too despairing of the thought that he didn't love her, or was still willing to do what he had to -- that she just ... let him. And, of course, he can't handle the reality of it, and takes his own life. Deeply tragic.

Interestingly, I have ANTEROS on the AP (00º Aries), which is 2º conjunct my Guardian's CHIRON, and 0º conjunct my PHOLUS.