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Author Topic:   Madhatter conjunct Moon and Alice conjunct Sun in a composite
Aunt Anomalia
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posted June 22, 2015 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aunt Anomalia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What do you think it means?
Fun fact: tAlice is on that composite's MC now.

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Aubyanne
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posted June 22, 2015 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What's the orb?

I have this with my boyfriend, who's also my costar in a series with Alice themes. Plus our karma is Alice-themed -- so we've got it a bit everywhere. However, it's also with PSYCHE and EROS respectively.

I'm beginning intensive work into the Carrollians. I reckon it's a bit of my destiny to do so which I've been fighting. Heh! I'll repost a bit of my work into MADHATTER here. ALICE is a little trickier.

Question: are they aspecting? Or merely conjunct the luminaries and making no aspect to each other?

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Aunt Anomalia
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posted June 22, 2015 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aunt Anomalia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You have exactly the same aspects???

Moon-M 2.54
Sun-A 1.30

Unfortunately they don't aspect each other but the Moon and Sun belong to the same pattern. Btw, Alice is square Neptune by 3 minutes. Quite fitting, isn't it? There's even an interesting interplay bewteen our personas. I think I'm the Madhatter here. Ok, I know it

Carrollians? Are these couples who have important aspects with M. and A.?
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Aunt Anomalia
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posted June 22, 2015 03:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aunt Anomalia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just checked a synastry with someone else. Alice conjunct Madhatter exact DW

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Aubyanne
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posted June 22, 2015 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's intriguing! This thoroughly helps with my research.

The only other couple ( -- erm, formerly) was a writing team with MADHATTER conjunct ALICE. They met on a story called 'Shattered Wonderland'.

It's tough to find whether these are 'name' asteroids more often or have operational value.

In our case it's a 0º10 conjunction of MADHATTER and PSYCHE at the MC. Our series delves deeply into what sanity (or, conversely, insanity) really means. It's also shifting and exploring multiple timelines and dimension-hopping for psychological purpose.

Then ALICE is widely (3º) conjunct EROS with the MOON (wide again, at 3º). Seemed the most curious placement until I realised -- oh, of course. ALICE/EROS=MOON (0º).

I think what's most intriguing though, is ALICE is quindecile MADHATTER. Can't expect the energy to be merged yet. Nope. We haven't earnt that just yet. Here's hoping we will have by the conjunction in 2017, when the series is set to premiere. PSYCHE and EROS do oppose, however, so there's a complementariness there.

All in all, it's a pattern as opposed to aspect placement: SUN, MADHATTER, PSYCHE in LEO with MOON, ALICE, and EROS in AQUARIUS. I feel it's a personal thing, as to why ALICE and MADHATTER aren't conjunct with us. We'll have to earn that through progression eventually.

What're the two doing in the synastry? As the composite's derived from that, answers can be more often found there.

I'll go ahead and post up my bit on MADHATTER (6735). See if it's of any use.

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Aubyanne
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posted June 22, 2015 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[Reposted]

MADHATTER:

I can confidently say it means much more than we initially thought it did, and nowhere near as simply as 'madness' or 'insanity' or 'confusion'.

For one, scholars are mostly in agreement these days that Dodgson suffered from mercury poisoning, and likely had what they called Mad Hatter Disease. Sadly, it wasn't uncommon, and he was already on the schizophrenic spectrum. More than a pen name, Carroll was a bit of an alter-ego which allowed him to express himself more fully.

To that end, the Hatter isn't insane. He's not even called anything BUT 'the Hatter'. The 'Mad' attribution was added years later, perhaps as distinction for the character given his ostensible madness. Perhaps Dodgson was making a statement on insanity being relative, but he was surely engaging in Victorian social commentary -- namely how ridiculous he truly found it all (tucked safely inside of his nom de plume, rather than the Oxford don of certain renown).

So, a pervasive question has always been: what does the Hatter represent? As that's clearly for what MADHATTER (6735) is the namesake.

For that, we have to closely examine his role in the stories where he appears: Alice's Adventures and Through The Looking Glass. It's also of worthy mention that he never appeared in Dodgson's initial penning of the first story, titled 'Alice's Adventures Under-ground'. The chapter, 'A Mad Tea-Party' which serves as his debut was added in the version to be published -- and it remains a mystery as to why.

We'll go through the scene in-depth, but it's worth linking to the Sabian Assembly's deeper studies into Alice (by none other than Marc Edmund Jones) on it, as he does a wonderful meta-analysis.

To really understand MADHATTER, we'll need to read that essay and grok it. Fully.

Now, there are a few dynamics of the Hatter we play around with in our series, and I'll start with those. First of all, he's the last to speak in the scene, and is having a tea-party at someone else's house. Perhaps it's just the sheer personality of the Hatter, but it's become 'the Mad Hatter's tea' in any case, even though he's technically hosting it at the March Hare's house!

Well, that's rather audacious! He's also rather studious and slower to speech than the Hare is, but when he does involve himself in conversation, he's right to the point -- to the point of being considered impolite. (Remember however, Dodgson felt most of Victorian convention was superfluous and pretentious anyhow, and was always fighting a deep internal love of chaos despite his passion for order. He ... was a complicated man.)

Once the conversation gets going, all he does is riddle Alice. To me, the whole thing comes off as reminiscent of Lecter's first sizing up and 'trials' of Starling. The Hare, who seems, at this point, to be an easy cohort of the Hatter's is practically gaslighting poor Alice, as the two carry on as if her perception is the wrong one.

That's a crucial feature.

Funny thing is, they ARE using legitimate logical argument. (Again, Dodgson was a logician. 'Alice' is full of mathematical jokes and logic puzzles.) It all seems as if it's going to continue this way, but then the real point of the scene is introduced.

The Hatter's watch.

We don't yet know that he's a dimensional traveller, so this seems like a bit of meaningless fun; oh, it's a watch that doesn't tell the time of day, but the day of the month! Ha, ha! Never underestimate the wiliness of its author, however.

Dodgson was obsessive in his search to understand the true nature of reality, stumbling into what we'd now call the quantum world, long before Einstein theorised special relativity, or Feynman discovered the potential of quantum fields. But he had a strange certainty of multidimensionality, and explored it through his fiction.

So the Hatter's watch is almost as important as the Hatter himself.

When the Hatter asks Alice what day of the month it is, she responds it's 'the fourth'. (This is presumed to be 4 July, as that was the day on which the story was first created on a trip along the Isis at Oxford, in 1862. But that's just a bit of trivia.)

The Hatter bemoans this, saying 'it's two days wrong!' Then Dodgson breaks the thread to introduce ... LOGIC. The Hatter states how he 'knew butter wouldn't suit the works' (of the watch) glaring at the Hare, who we presume suggested it. It seems like any argument between friends. The Hare insists it 'was the best butter', and the Hatter reasons that crumbs got into it, because it was applied with the bread-knife.

There's nothing insane about this line of reasoning.

It's a mechanical device. Some watches indeed needed oiling, to 'suit the works'. Butter is an oily substance. Bread crumbs, or anything granular, however, WILL lock up such machinery. The Hatter proves by this that he's NOT insane -- he's just keeping up appearances. (Much like our dimension-traveller, the Mad Hatter Murderer.)

Now, after this seemingly innocuous, almost silly conversation goes on, (intended to be distracting) Alice raises THE IMPORTANT question.

'What a funny watch! It tells the day of the month and doesn't tell what o'clock it is!'

He simply replies, 'does your watch tell you what year it is?'

She says, 'of course not! But that's because it stays the same year for such a long time altogether.'

And the Hatter replies: 'which is just the case with mine.'

And Alice is appropriately surprised, even saying that she can't understand his point of view. Instead, the Hatter returns to asking her for the riddle's answer, which she admits she doesn't have. He then confesses there IS no answer. Alice quips by saying it's a 'waste of time' to ask riddles with no answers. And this is where we get a real sense of the Hatter is about; everything we've learnt thus far starts to come together very clearly.

Time is personified by Dodgson in the story, and it's stated, plainly, that the Hatter claims a personal relationship with Time. To the point where he can ask 'him' favours -- and control the time.

Yes. The Hatter has the ability to control the time. He's practically a Victorian-era Time Lord!

We'll see exactly what happened to leave him in the state of having a broken watch in just a minute.

In singing at a concert given by the Queen of Hearts the previous March, (it's assumed to be July now) he was sentenced to death for murdering the time. (Dodgson playing with puns again.) But since then, the Hatter claims that 'he and Time quarrelled' (that March) and now it's perpetually tea-time (six o'clock).

Dodgson purposefully leaves things a bit confusing, so as to play upon the mystery. Some he answered through correspondence, some he left, period. Such as why the clock's 'two days wrong' (remember, it tells the day of the month -- not the time of day; that's superfluous in the Hatter's perception and experience, and we'll see why later) or exactly how 'the time' was murdered, especially since time is Time to the Hatter -- and we know now, he ISN'T mad.

Let's move on to his next appearance, which (after he appears at the trial in Wonderland) isn't again until he's in Looking Glass Land. As Hatta.

This is all in 'Through The Looking-Glass', where we've already seen the Jabberwock.

Here, named 'Hatta', he's imprisoned for a crime he's yet to commit, as 'time works differently' in Looking Glass Land. Alice rightfully suggests what if the crime never occurs? And no one can argue -- but nor do they give explanation for what happens if anyone goes away from the timeline, or alters its events. LGL inhabitants have a memory that 'works both ways' and essentially 'live backwards'.

What's most intriguing is that, while the Queen of Hearts doesn't exist here, the Hatter is still in prison for something -- even if his identity is changed, as he's now a messenger of the Red King. Haigha, (Hare) is here, too, also a king's messenger, only intermittently insane. The Hatter is solemn, logical, and hardly his buoyant, riddlesome self as we met him in Wonderland. Here he's clearly himself -- but someone else.

This is where Dodgson was attempting to slowly ease into the concept of multidimensionality, which he'd explore fully in his last works, Sylvie and Bruno. But in the Alice stories, he's plainly playing with the concept, just more subtly.

We can't say for certain that the Hatter is aware of his multidimensional existence, but his having 'such a funny watch' that measures time differently, and a personal relationship with Time, in which he's able to manipulate it, at will -- there's good evidence for it.

It's going to take awhile to truly expect MADHATTER to give up its secrets. But, in the meanwhile, here's what I've compiled through my research:

Logic to the point of perceived insanity, or, at least, absurdity; literality. Relativity as it relates to both perception and time. Multidimensionality and time travel; coexistence in multiple states at a given moment; time measurement and manipulation. Riddles, confusion, what seems abstruse but is in fact logical when perceived differently. Experiences with the above. Potential ability to perceive such states or have conscious knowledge of them. Issues with time, time-perception, and misperception.

Though, really, it's just scratching the surface. There's a long, long way to go before we can truly grasp its full meaning. But it's a start.

--

Also, the near-conjunction of MADHATTER and ALICE in Cancer is likely going to be bringing these energies to the fore.

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Aunt Anomalia
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posted June 22, 2015 04:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aunt Anomalia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the article, it's interesting. My examples aren't couple cases so I'm afraid your reseach won't benefit much from me ~~"

Madhatter sextile Saturn 0, conjunct ASC 4 if it counts
Alice square ASC 1

Madhatter square Neptune under 1

There would be Alice-Uranus DW if the orbs aren't an issue: trine 1.37 deg, square 2.08 deg.

I think this applies:
Multidimensionality
Riddles, confusion, what seems abstruse but is in fact logical when perceived differently. Experiences with the above. Potential ability to perceive such states or have conscious knowledge of them.

Do you know where exactly that conjunction will occur?

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Aubyanne
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posted June 22, 2015 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm unbelievably super-psyched about the upcoming conjunction on 28 NOV 2017, too. It's going to be very transformative and paradigm-shifting.

The actual conjunction (in Los Angeles) is at 29º PIS 36 with the MOON, 0º00! All kissing the Aries Point! I was bowled over when I saw that!

Moreover, the conjunction itself is so powerful and personal for us, as well as being immensely profound for the world at large.

The tSUN illuminates our p-composite MARS-NEP conjunction in the p1H -- which is our natal composite 2H. Wonderful time for filming.

tVENUS is on my SCORPIO stellium.
tMARS is conjunct his MARS. (He's having a MARS return!) It's also on our composite DESTINN-ASC (0º).

tJUPITER-tKARMA is conjunct our composite MARS (and his TARDIS-DNA :: giggle :: -- that's apropos). Also on my LEWISCARROLL-DESTINN (and ACTOR).

tPSYCHE on my KARMA and his SNODE.

tMERC-tSAT is on the GC.

tEROS is on the GA.

I'm having a NODAL return. The end of another Saros cycle. I began this project during its start; I'll finally be releasing it at its end. Perfect.

That also puts the tSNODE on his LEWISCARROLL, too.

The whole 29º PISCES shebang is 0º opposite his ACTOR, too, which is 0º conjunct his MC. His CHIRON is 29º PISCES, with my ANTEROS at 0º ARIES. It's befitting that all of those hit.

tPLUTO is conjunct pAMOR on 17º CAP, all trine tDESTINN on a very serious karmic stellium in our synastry, huddled around 17º TAU. Deep stuff.

tJUNO is on my AMOR-ALICE.

And, last but not least, the tMC is on his DESTINN.

As for the world at large ...

tSUN is in the 12H, with VENUS and EROS. Deep karma will be unearthed, which can be beautifully transmuted with effort through joy and creativity (DESTINN-ISIS in 5H). Gains will be enjoyed by all if this is accomplished, as PSYCHE-VESTA, JUPITER-KARMA dominate the 11H. Scorpio. So, no cheating. Nothing less than total karmic cleaning and soul rebirth.

Fame can possessed by those who can harness the power of love through creativity; the deep soul-bonding that comes from sharing the most intimate part of oneself through art. That's promised by SAPPHO-KLIO in the 1H.

Amazing stuff.

I can't wait!

Well, actually, I can, because I'm still in preproduction at this point, and November 2017 seems a lot closer when you're getting ready to release a television series. Heh!

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Aubyanne
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posted June 22, 2015 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
Do you know where exactly that conjunction will occur?


I know a little something about it, yes.

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Aubyanne
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posted June 22, 2015 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And, uh, Auntie -- didn't you say you're a TARDIS-SUN, yeah?

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Aunt Anomalia
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posted June 22, 2015 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aunt Anomalia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
TARDIS sandwiched by Sun and Neptune.

Thanks for the info. Since you're a karma fan...my Karma asteroid is at 0 Aries. The conjunction will be also quincunx my Moon. I'll pay attention.

You got me curious about LC. I have a Madhatter-LC sextile natally and a MH-LC-IC conjunction synastrically with Person 1 In the composite LC is conjunct Netpune which means it's square Alice under 1.

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Aubyanne
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posted June 22, 2015 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, see, people don't quite realise that Dodgson was so fascinated by -- and trying to understand -- multidimensionality. His last work, Sylvie and Bruno, blatantly dealt with dimensional travelling. True!

When I first read 'Looking Glass', I immediately noticed how Hatta was obviously the Hatter. What I hadn't realised -- and a point that Dodgson stressed -- was that Wonderland and Looking-Glass Land are SEPARATE DIMENSIONS.

How on earth does Alice travel to both? That's likely to be my next point of study. The fact that Hatter's there in both (along with the Hare) is, I feel, significant.

I've been slowly designing the Carrollian System behind the scenes. I half-wonder if we really can use it to some effect in multidimensional astrology.

The fact that most with MADHATTER (and / or ALICE aspects) also have TARDIS strong can't be total coincidence.

Oh. For a laugh? Plug in 5050. It's the only DOCTORW that the ol' skyrocks have given us, and I was rather gobsmacked at its successful 'repurposing'.

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Aunt Anomalia
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posted June 22, 2015 05:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aunt Anomalia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe in other dimensions but not the way it's been described here.

You might find it interesting: Moon trine Alice 0.40, MH conjunct IC 3.22, Link trine Pluto 0.09, Moon-NN-Anubis t-square, Bridges conjunct NN 0.12 and trine Mars 0.13, Interkosmos conjunct Sun 3.08 and Spirit 0.53, LC conjunct Alma 0.38, DoctorW conjunct Alice under 2. Am I special now?

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Aubyanne
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posted June 23, 2015 04:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
I believe in other dimensions but not the way it's been described here.

You might find it interesting: Moon trine Alice 0.40, MH conjunct IC 3.22, Link trine Pluto 0.09, Moon-NN-Anubis t-square, Bridges conjunct NN 0.12 and trine Mars 0.13, Interkosmos conjunct Sun 3.08 and Spirit 0.53, LC conjunct Alma 0.38, DoctorW conjunct Alice under 2. Am I special now?


We're all special in our way. I love working with INTERKOSMOS, too. That's a favourite.

I giggled to find his TARDIS-DNA and DOCTORW together. I wondered how often that might show up.

Keela once suggested repurposing DOCHU, too. I've been surprised, but it tends to work.

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Aunt Anomalia
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posted June 23, 2015 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aunt Anomalia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What would DOCHU stand for? If Doctor Who, then that's...too much imo.
I'm curious how exactly you perceive multidimensionality. Do you care to share?
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Peluches
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posted June 23, 2015 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peluches     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey, want to add another TARDIS-SUN to the list ?

He has :

SUN at 05° SCO 29'
TARDIS at 07° SCO 19'

ALICE at 11° LIB 54'
JUNO at 11° SCO 31'
CHESHIRECAT at 12° SCO 50'
MADHATTER at 13° CAP 11'
MARCHARE at 15° AQU 41'
CHIRON at 14° ARI 10'
VALENTINE at 13° CAN 00'

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Aubyanne
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posted June 23, 2015 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
What would DOCHU stand for? If Doctor Who, then that's...too much imo.
I'm curious how exactly you perceive multidimensionality. Do you care to share?

I know; I thought it a stretch, but amusing all the same.

Oh, dear! As far as that? Much longer discussion. But I'd be happy to do so.

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