Thread Closed  Topic Closed
  Lindaland
  Interpersonal Astrology
  Revolutionary Vedic astrologers :Sidereal Nakshatras and Tropical Signs. Matchmaking

Post New Topic  
profile | register | preferences | faq


This topic has been transferred to this forum: Vedic Astrology.
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Revolutionary Vedic astrologers :Sidereal Nakshatras and Tropical Signs. Matchmaking
Lotis White
Moderator

Posts: 1969
From: USA
Registered: Dec 2010

posted July 21, 2015 10:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lotis White     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Revolutionary Vedic astrologers: Sidereal Nakshatras and Tropical Signs. Will impact matchmaking.

I been aware of this for some time, but the Vedic astrology match making thread inspired me to let the cat out of the bag. There are actually a few astrologers out there that use Sidereal Nakshatras and Tropical Signs. Not just because they like it better, but because there is a legitimate rational for this… There’s a Vedic astrologer called Ernst Wilhelm who has researched the issue, and astrologer Lada Duncheva is another Vedic astrologer using this method as well (she has a big presence of you tube). This totally has some interesting implications for matchmaking, and synastry using Vedic astrology.

Here’s an overview of what I’ve learned form Ernst Wilhelm’s research…

Alright, basically about a thousand years ago the beginning of tropical zodiac and the beginning of the sidereal Nakshatra Ashvini were in perfect alignment. Now as we know the vernal equinox precesses through the constellations gradually over time. However, Ernst Wilhelm studied contradictory statements in old Sanskrit texts that revealed that ancient Vedic astrologers between 00-600 AD had somehow lost the knowledge of precession.

As a result the beginning of the nakshatra Ashvini was incorrectly identified with the 0 degrees Aries, instead of 0 degrees Aries being tied to the spring equinox. Over time, because of this, 0 degrees Aries has moved farther and farther away from the spring equinox due to being tied to a constellation rather then the equinox. This in fact my have been an error that occurred on the part of Vedic astrologer in India about a thousand years ago… And Vedic astrology is much older then that.

Ernst Wilhelm is not the only one that’s noticed either. There’s a certain celebration that traditionally in India is meant to be celebrated at the solstices when the Sun goes into Capricorn. At this point the Sun appears to change direction and slowly move north which is considered auspicious. However in modern times people are now celebrating this too late. It’s now celebrated when the Sun goes into sidereal Capricorn which is 23-24 days before the actual solstice. Apparently various scholars in India have objected to this because the celebrations are not occurring on the actual solstices, but instead 23 -24 days too early. Ancient texts confirm that these celebrations are meant to occur on the actual solstices, where the Sun appears to change direction at the beginning of Winter, and moves into Capricorn.

In 1956 a law was actually passed after a big meeting of scholars to hold the celebration at the tropical solstice (when the Sun moves into tropical Capricorn). However this law has not been enforced and due to tradition people are still celebrating the northward movement of the Sun three weeks to early. The celebration has now lost it’s connection with the astronomical fact it’s meant to commemorate… The winter solstice.

Also, I’m sure most Vedic astrologers would struggle with the notion that their zodiac is askew. It’s had to admit that during your entire career you’ve be partly operating based on an error. Some would refuse to look at this idea out of pride alone. It would take a tremendous push to change centuries of tradition.

Anyway… So upon discovering all of this, the Vedic astrologer Ernst Wilhelm spent two solid years testing every Vedic astrology technique he knew of, and all of them tested out better in his experience when he used TROPICAL SIGNS. Now he uses sidereal Nakshatra and combination with tropical signs. That means that if you were born a thousand years ago, a person with a 3 degree Pisces Moon could have a different Moon Nakahatra then a person with a 3 degree Pisces Moon now. Due to precession of the equinox the nakshatras behind the signs slowly changes through the centuries. Ernst Wilhelm has now come to the conclusion that only Nakshatras are sidereal (based on the stars), while the zodiac signs may in fact be tropical.

I’ve been considering this and I’m inclined to say that I believe it. I’ve always found that tropical signs explain a person’s personality so much better then sidereal signs. Also Vedic astrologers rely a lot on house placements and nakshatras, so the this astrology could still be somewhat successful even if they are using the wrong sign divisions. In most cases the house placements would not change too much using whole signs.

So what do you think people? Personally I suspect that Vedic astrology in it’s original form really was made up of Sidereal Nakshatras and Tropical Signs. This would impact the calculation of divisional charts, including the navamsha, as well. Actually, if you use tropical signs, the navamsha turns out to be basically our 9th harmonic chart. The whole thing is really fascinating to explore and it makes so much sense to me. I never truly resonated with my sidereal sign placements, and I totally feel like a Capricorn Sun at my core, not a Sag Sun. Even though I have other planets in Sag and have some Sag-like personality traits, my core is Capricornian for sure. The Sun is our central motivation.

If you go to Ernst Wilhelm’s site VALT OF THE HEAVENS, he has a link to listen to an audio giving his explanation on this topic himself, as well as calculator for sidereal nakshatra/tropical sign natal charts and DIVSIONAL charts. He also explains how tropical signs have worked better for him. http://vaultoftheheavens.com/VOTH_ChartCreator/Welcome.aspx

Here’s a link to Lada Duncheva’s Youtube channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/lastrology?feature=watch

Of course our new charts done using this method will have the same nakshatra placements but paired with tropical signs. This will effect our navamsha and certain matchmaking methods based on that, but the nakshatra based matchmaking method will not change.

IP: Logged

Neptunian Venus
Knowflake

Posts: 148
From:
Registered: Apr 2015

posted July 22, 2015 06:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neptunian Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I greatly admire Ernst Wilhelm and Lada Duncheva. Their videos and teachings are very insightful. Still however, I personally resonate with my sidereal placements more so than western.

For me, Vedic techniques explain far more than any western ones could.

After reading Kapiel Raaj's books (KRS on YouTube) and watching many of his YouTube videos religiously ( I know call me obsessed but I really wanted to get to the bottom of this), I've started to see astrology and the signs through a different light.
His research and teachings have been a profound eye opener for me.

This hunger of mine for knowledge is perfectly explained by my Rahu (NN indicating obsession in Vedic) conjunct Jupiter (9th house lord). Planets in sidereal are still considered to be in conjunction as long as they're in the same sign/same house, no matter the orb.

In western you can't see this because Jupiter and Rahu would be a sign apart and out of orb to be conjunct, plus Jupiter would be ruling a totally different house.

Then again there are also slight variations between the interpretations for let's say a western Leo and a sidereal Leo.

The western description for Leo is usually deemed as loud, bold, dramatic and gregarious.

The sidereal translation is that Leo has more of a quiet aura, yet still the attention goes to them no matter what. The don't deliberately seek attention and fame, they are given that naturally because of their presence.

Another example would be a western Sag — they are all about philosophizing, expansion, exploring new horizons, etc

The Vedic equivalent of that would be Scorpio, who wants get to the core of things, dig deep and attain deeper knowledge.

Same goes for other signs.

I'm not bashing western astrology by any means, but from what I've seen, whatever you find in the western chart could be explained far better and easily using Vedic techniques.

But to each their own.

IP: Logged

Lotis White
Moderator

Posts: 1969
From: USA
Registered: Dec 2010

posted July 22, 2015 07:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lotis White     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Really, I find it to be the opposite. I've noticed that people's tropical sign charts fit them so much better. It also makes sense to me that one system, the nakshatras, is sidereal, while the other system, the zodiac signs, is tropical. I've never really resonated with my sidereal placements but I have respect for Vedic astrology so I thought maybe there's some type of subtle influence from sidereal signs.

But now that I've discovered Ernst Wilhelm's research, that the sidereal zodiac may in fact just be an ancient error in calculations, it puts things into place in my mind. I think Vedic astrology is great, and if it is being used incorrectly, wouldn't it be so much better if there was a strong movement to correct that mistake.

Once people have certain ideas ingrained within them it's hard to overcome... Even in the face of evidence to the contrary. I mean the 1956 law passed in India about the incorrect celebration date of the ingress of Capricorn, which is now being ignored due to custom alone, pretty much says it all.

IP: Logged

Neptunian Venus
Knowflake

Posts: 148
From:
Registered: Apr 2015

posted July 22, 2015 07:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neptunian Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There could be something to it. I can't really say much on that.

But if they did make an error, wouldn't their techniques and predictions be proven uneffective as a result?

IP: Logged

mir
Knowflake

Posts: 2004
From:
Registered: May 2009

posted July 22, 2015 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7030&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

A bit reading through that ^ now... wanna know more about it and see different views.

For myself, the reason vedic astro grabbed me by the throat was this Vasya connection with an impressive accuracy in my own life. In that, certain (seemingly random) Moon signs feel magnetically attracted to others.
So the interconnectedness or plain and simple magnetic forces between individuals took my breath away which as such doesn't leave much room for sign interpretation on a more individual level. It requires a more serious thought to give a clue on what zodiac sign fits best I guess. And as Neptunian said, there might be some difference in sign interpretation with both systems.
But switching this Vasya to a tropical sign level and it all goes up in smoke. That's the experienced reality. At least mine.

IP: Logged

Lotis White
Moderator

Posts: 1969
From: USA
Registered: Dec 2010

posted July 23, 2015 01:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lotis White     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Neptunian Venus:
There could be something to it. I can't really say much on that.

But if they did make an error, wouldn't their techniques and predictions be proven uneffective as a result?


Not completely, Ernst makes the point that Vedic astrology is a system the places a lot of emphasis on house placements, and Nakshatras. Nakshatras are sidereal in the first place, and the gap between the zodiacs has not always been as large as it is now. It's only in the last few hundred years that the tropical and sidereal zodiacs have been largely out of alignment. My understanding is that most Vedic interpretation techniques are older then this. One point that Ernst Wilhelm made in his audio talk on this is that the Vedic emphasis on house placements and Nakahatras has made it still relatively accurate even if they are incorrectly calculating the signs.

IP: Logged

Lotis White
Moderator

Posts: 1969
From: USA
Registered: Dec 2010

posted July 23, 2015 02:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lotis White     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mir:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7030&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

A bit reading through that ^ now... wanna know more about it and see different views.

For myself, the reason vedic astro grabbed me by the throat was this Vasya connection with an impressive accuracy in my own life. In that, certain (seemingly random) Moon signs feel magnetically attracted to others.
So the interconnectedness or plain and simple magnetic forces between individuals took my breath away which as such doesn't leave much room for sign interpretation on a more individual level. It requires a more serious thought to give a clue on what zodiac sign fits best I guess. And as Neptunian said, there might be some difference in sign interpretation with both systems.
But switching this Vasya to a tropical sign level and it all goes up in smoke. That's the experienced reality. At least mine.


Yes, I think the Vasya topic is interesting. Lada Duncheva uses this and she's one of those Vedic astrologers using the tropical zodiac. She uses it not just for the Moon sign but also for comparing other planets in her and her partner's chart. She says it works for her too (and she uses tropical).

My Cancer Moon is supposed to be attracted to Scorpio and Taurus Moons (or planets) but it hasn't happened yet. My Cap Sun is theoretically attracted to Pisces and Libra, and my Sag Asc is theoretically attracted to Cancer. Haven't been significantly drawn to any of these yet either. That doesn't mean that Vasya doesn't work. I like the idea of it. And I can see how some of these signs could appeal to me under certain circumstances, especially in relation to my 5th, 7th, and 8th house symbolism. Perhaps Vasya is less about liking someone's style (which is a 5th, 7th, and 8th house thing), and more about how a certain person make us feel.

I looked up a rational for choosing Vasya signs once. The signs we attract are determined by what sign our sign's ruler is debilitated in, what sign's ruler is exalted in our sign, and what other signs share our ruler...

For example, Capricorn will attract the sign that Saturn is debilitated in (Aries, Saturn is debilitated in this sign), the sign ruled by a planet exalted in Capricorn (Aries again, because the Mars is exalted in Capricorn), and the sign it shares it's ruler with (Aqaurius, because they are both ruled by Saturn).
http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1417802-vasya-signs-logic-behind/
Here's a link to the logic behind Vasya. You can see it if you scroll down.

IP: Logged

Aubyanne
Moderator

Posts: 4128
From: Tinseltown, Hollyweird, The Multiverse
Registered: Sep 2014

posted July 23, 2015 03:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aubyanne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've got to get back to my modified D60 (stastiasma) and D30 (trimsamsa). I thought it was crazy and bizarre they were so insightful, being, essentially, using the corresponding harmonics -- with with the tropical zodiac. In turn, the links to the sidereal natals (and tropical natals) were just boggling -- too much for mere coincidence and random chance.

I can't say why it 'worked', but the marriage of eastern philosophy to western design felt somehow right to me.

And, I really need to get those books / titles you recommended, Venus. Seriously.

IP: Logged

Neptunian Venus
Knowflake

Posts: 148
From:
Registered: Apr 2015

posted July 23, 2015 06:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Neptunian Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lotis White:
Not completely, Ernst makes the point that Vedic astrology is a system the places a lot of emphasis on house placements, and Nakshatras. Nakshatras are sidereal in the first place, and the gap between the zodiacs has not always been as large as it is now. It's only in the last few hundred years that the tropical and sidereal zodiacs have been largely out of alignment. My understanding is that most Vedic interpretation techniques are older then this. One point that Ernst Wilhelm made in his audio talk on this is that the Vedic emphasis on house placements and Nakahatras has made it still relatively accurate even if they are incorrectly calculating the signs.

Ah, it makes sense if you put it that way.

IP: Logged

Ceridwen
Moderator

Posts: 20777
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted July 23, 2015 02:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
that is new for me. thanks for sharing.

IP: Logged

mir
Knowflake

Posts: 2004
From:
Registered: May 2009

posted July 23, 2015 09:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Yes, I think the Vasya topic is interesting. Lada Duncheva uses this and she's one of those Vedic astrologers using the tropical zodiac. She uses it not just for the Moon sign but also for comparing other planets in her and her partner's chart. She says it works for her too (and she uses tropical).


Ah, that is probably from the video I once found on YouTube. Vasya here was used with the tropical zodiac and I remember thinking; 'wow that's NOT the sideral one, so probably from a girl without much vedic astro knowlegde taking just one part out of their kuta system' lol. (I see the link now you gave / and yes, must be her).

Interesting that it seems to work for her (and others I guess). Taking other planets (such as both Suns etc.) for this to check would also be an option indeed. I will keep an eye on the 'tropical variant' also now.


I see Vasya as a power imbalance between 2 people (which ofcourse doesn't necessarily have to be bad). In fact it's interesting that we can find this vibe when we keep our view restricted to both Moons only (compatibility in vedic is all about the Moons). Not something we can find in our western realm as that's where for example Pluto comes into the pic (I take Pluto with a grain of salt nowadays / feels as: meaningless dot in the sky).

When we look a bit further we find another VASYA variant as part of their kuta system for which even 2 points can be earned (my take: well, if 'vasya magnetic' already proves itself so accurate / then what about the variant for which we even can obtain points!).

Ok, so there are 2 Vasya variants / which both all to do with the Signs and how they relate to each other;

1) Vasya 'Magnetic Attraction' (no points / the one it all started with here)
2) Vasya kuta / Innate Giving (earned points 0,5 - 1 - or max 2)

(the word Vasya means globally 'subjected to' / dutiful)

So, they're globally the same, let's now keep it simple hehe.

So these ^ are the first things I look for when it comes to "power balance".


I'm a vedic libra moon. Virgo/Cap is Vasya (magnetic one) TO mine..

So there are different options that can arise. I first thought about it when I saw the theory behind 'vasya magnetic' from the link you gave. I thought; ok, so the vibe between me and Cap might me a bit different than the one between me and Virgo.

BUT... this ^ (I thought) is all noticeable when we take the OTHER vasya variant into account.

Namely, I already noticed a difference in vibe-experience between me and Virgo and me and Cap. With Virgo it's more a sweet/caring vibe (besides ofcourse the feeling basic fact that they're "subjected to" ). While with Cap it's inclined to go into a more unpleasant fated direction.

Let's look at the difference when we take the other Vasya variant into account;

With Cap - we come to a 0,5 point.
Cap is also vasya to Libra there that would make it 1 point. BUT since Cap is at-the-same-time ALSO "food" for Libra we have to substract 0,5 from 1 which then comes to a 0,5 score (low).

(I think that's ^ all-together the worst scenario you can have / ofcourse if the rest of the charts aren't exactly compatible)

With Virgo - we come to a score of 2. Which means that we're both Vasya TO each others Moon sign.

(definitely more balance ^).


Ok this for now haha.

IP: Logged

Lotis White
Moderator

Posts: 1969
From: USA
Registered: Dec 2010

posted July 24, 2015 01:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lotis White     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Mir for pointing out the two different Vasyas. I was wondering about that because I've seen websites that delineate Vasya as a creature category thing (the innate giving version), and then on other websites they talk about debilitation/exaltation/same ruler thing (magnetic attraction).

About Pluto,

Speaking from personal experience it works. When Pluto went over my Venus at 29 Sag, and my Sun at 5 Capricorn I had a bad experience with an unwanted admirer. This type of obsession is definitely a Pluto/Scorpio thing.

IP: Logged

Ceridwen
Moderator

Posts: 20777
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted July 24, 2015 06:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I find it great you are so enthusiastic about that, Mir. Basically because I love enthusiasm in general.

Nevertheless I can`t support that Vasya theory from own experience neither from the couples I know. Well, it seems to be a bit of "hit-and-miss" but not a reliable factor for me and my database.


Having a Capricorn Moon (sidereally) I SHOULD be attracted to Pisces and Libra.
Doesn´t hold true for me though, at least not in terms of MAGNETIC attraction. I do have a certain liking there, but hardly anything extraordinary.
I seem to be much more attracted to Aries and Sagittarius. even sidereally. lol
#


(The Aries one might be explained by my Navamsa Moon in Leo though. and my navamsa Jupiter in Pisces maybe the Sagittarius-attraction, especially with Jupiter being the karaka of husband, and lord of the 5th house in navamsa)

My parents are definitely of the magnetic attraction sort yet,

Mum`s Moon in Virgo should be attracted to Gemini/ Libra - my Dad has Aries Moon though
his Navamsa Moon is in gemini though - hu? Can it be that our family responds more to the interconnection between the natal and Navamsa than cross connections within the Rasi itself?

my Dad`s Moon in Aries - should be attracted to Aquarius - Capricorn
my Mums moon in Virgo - no hit, BUT her Navamsa Moon in Aquarius!
Now THAT is interesting to me!


-----------------------
No Rasi hit for my brother and his girlfriend either.

No hit in RAsi-Navamsa either, though they have a link via opposition, which is probably not valid but interesting


-------------------------------------------

There is a hit for my friend and her husband
his Capricorn Moon attracted to her Pisces Moon. which makes sense

She has a Capricorn Moon in Navamsa as well.

--------------------------------------------

for another of my friends

no hit, but again the opposition reappears

from Rasi - Navamsa
no hit either, but again the opposition.

IP: Logged

mir
Knowflake

Posts: 2004
From:
Registered: May 2009

posted July 24, 2015 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ceri, that is a verry impressive nav/rasi resonance with your parents!

But now I'm curious... what happens if you take those couples' Vasya to a TROPICAL level?


((at least your parents have Strii Dirgha / wow! / but that's something for that other thread.. flabberrrrrgastering its description - sometimes I think it's more about how the vedics put everything into words than something else))

IP: Logged

Ceridwen
Moderator

Posts: 20777
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted July 24, 2015 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
elaborate on the Dirgha-thing for me. I have heard it, but forgotten about it again I fear

IP: Logged

Ceridwen
Moderator

Posts: 20777
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted July 24, 2015 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think Mr Moola and me have that, too.
As counting from my Nakshatra Dhanishta to Moola is a pretty long way to go.

IP: Logged

Ceridwen
Moderator

Posts: 20777
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted July 24, 2015 03:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
as for Vasya in tropical sense of my parents

my Dad has Taurus-Moon, my Mum has Virgo-Moon.
doesn`t match either.

in the 9th harmonic my Dad`s Moon in Capricorn - not a direct match but again the opposition comes up

my mumns Moon in Virgo in 9th too.

IP: Logged

Lotis White
Moderator

Posts: 1969
From: USA
Registered: Dec 2010

posted July 25, 2015 05:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lotis White     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Because Nakshatra's are sidereal much of the Vedic matching system based on the Moon Nakshatra's stays the same even if we switch to the tropical zodiac.

A few of the main things that do change is compatibility between the lords of the Moon, and Vasya based on sign matching.

I was wondering if there are anymore examples of this sort of thing using tropical.

IP: Logged

mir
Knowflake

Posts: 2004
From:
Registered: May 2009

posted July 25, 2015 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lotis ^, 2 other parts of their Kuta system are also based on signs only. It's "Varna Kuta" (the 4 elements water/fire/earth/air divided into castes) for which 1 point can be earned, and "Bha Kuta" (sextiles/opp./conj/square get 7 points here while trines/semi-sextiles/quincunx' get zero).

If both Moons fall within the first 23-24 degrees of a sign (the switch from tropical to vedic) everything will stay the same on a tropical level for both Kutas. But if one Moons falls in the last 6-7 degrees of a sign while the other in the first 23-24 degrees you will logically get another picture with both.

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Standard Time

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Open Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  
Hop to:

Contact Us | Linda-Goodman.com

Copyright 2000-2015

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a