posted November 14, 2015 10:00 PM            

Perhaps instead there are markers that signify the nature of the relationship. Will it be enduring? Will it be exclusive? Will both sides get what they need from it? Will it end once the lesson is learned, the Karma is balanced, or the growing finished?

Despite what DeBeers would have you believe, they aren't all supposed to last a lifetime. But if you're lucky, one or a few might. Though even then it may change from one kind of relationship to another.

I think sometimes, when I'm stuck, when I'm really down, and I'm being particularly stubborn... The universe sends me a lover to send a message to me that I wouldn't accept from anyone else. That's one of the gifts of Venus conjunct NN. Or I'm completely delusional...take your pick

Going back to look at the charts of people from my past, I found in the chart of someone who was as influential as she was improbable Saturn conjunct my SN. Tell me that wasn't a tell! Not that I knew enough astrology back then...

Anyway, the point is, if you're entirely focused on "Will (s)he cheat", you're missing the point, you're missing the magic, and you're probably missing out on love.

posted November 14, 2015 10:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gemini Blues:
It's been my experience that those that are fastest to level the charge of cheating are cheaters... Same with liars and lying.

---

That's been my experience as well, at least in real life (as opposed to the net where I can't say).

posted November 14, 2015 10:39 PM            

And I just thought -- eff it. Let's work on becoming polyamorous. Of course, 'let's work on' is often lost on a Gemini man. (Don't shake your head at me.) He only heard 'go forth and plow, my dear!' Or, y'know, something to that effect.

Now, now, he does have a Cancer VENUS. In his insecurity and need of deep -- erm, 'ego' stroking -- he chose a nervous, but very sweet Virgo woman, from whom he'd talked off of a ledge or two in the past year or so. I've got to give him credit where it's due.

But I still wasn't ready. I was ready to learn to do that; handle the occasional Scorpionic rage that welled up from God knows where, and, like a demented bit of gravity laced with crack, magically made everything in a room land onto the floor.

In the famous words of Shaggy, 'it wasn't me.' ( ... okay, it was.) He's since learnt to never, ever lead me to believe that he's actually been unfaithful to me. Of course, now, HEY! He'd have to deal with me AND his girlfriend! We'd be a vicious tag team, too. He doesn't want to go there.

So, you can see that now, I'm okay with it. But I wasn't starting out. I just had learnt that the 'name' I'd felt was very precious to my soul, was a variation of the nickname she'd given herself some time before, my sidereal SUN is exactly conjunct her tropical MOON, and her name is on my NNODE.

And I thought -- well, Randall doesn't like us to curse. But I knew. I knew it was time to explore something I didn't know -- territory for which I felt unprepared. Afraid. Hell -- terrified. And so I made rules. Hard negotiations. And she and I upheld them. My husband ... not so much. So, I made tougher rules. She and I became closer over him continually breaking them. And, eventually, it all started to work out.

He still can't allow himself to be happy for me when I've had a wonderful bonding experience with my boyfriend. But I'm genuinely happy every time he's with his girlfriend, and the sheer joy she feels. He used to feel it, too, but they have issues -- like any couple does. I tend to be the one to help them through it. You might say the 'thrill is gone', and he's not exactly in it for much but the razzle-dazzle.

But what he wanted was to control me. He wanted to possess me entirely. Not because he adores me, but because he has an innate need to control anything that is 'his'. I didn't like that, and I knew it was counterproductive to my own soul's growth and evolution. I decided instead to be mine, and to 'loan' myself out to those who I feel are worthy of the rental. But I belong to me.

I know that the ring on my finger would indicate otherwise. But that's not how it is. Love isn't control, in my book. And this whole experience has slowly, but surely, allowed me to ease myself into that understanding. That's why I can be truly happy when my husband has a wonderful experience with his girlfriend, and they're both silly and sappy with each other. I don't need to control him. A good deal of trust goes into these things, too. A negotiation between everyone involved that no one's going to upend the other's life. No home-wrecking. Not allowed.

I fear that some exclusivity is borne of two things -- an inability to go outside the status quo, and plain garden-variety insecurity. Some people absolutely cannot fathom being with another person; the other individual satisfies them in every shape and form. But that's pretty friggin' rare.

Though I will say, since my relationship with my boyfriend became -- I don't know what you call it; whatever counts as 'exclusive' between us, but only includes my marriage outside of it -- I think that's polyfidelity -- now 2 years ago, I finally felt 'married'. I felt 'done'. I had no further sense of 'maybe this ... ' or longing to resolve past relationships that never acquired closure. It's strange.

posted November 14, 2015 10:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aubyanne:
I threw up my hands one day, in utter frustration over a number of things. My husband had wanted to know if we were on a trajectory to being exclusive again, or becoming polyamorous.

And I just thought -- eff it. Let's work on becoming polyamorous. Of course, 'let's work on' is often lost on a Gemini man. (Don't shake your head at me.) He only heard 'go forth and plow, my dear!' Or, y'know, something to that effect.

Now, now, he does have a Cancer VENUS. In his insecurity and need of deep -- erm, 'ego' stroking -- he chose a nervous, but very sweet Virgo woman, from whom he'd talked off of a ledge or two in the past year or so. I've got to give him credit where it's due.

But I still wasn't ready. I was ready to learn to do that; handle the occasional Scorpionic rage that welled up from God knows where, and, like a demented bit of gravity laced with crack, magically made everything in a room land onto the floor.

In the famous words of Shaggy, 'it wasn't me.' ( ... okay, it was.) He's since learnt to never, ever lead me to believe that he's actually been unfaithful to me. Of course, now, HEY! He'd have to deal with me AND his girlfriend! We'd be a vicious tag team, too. He doesn't want to go there.

So, you can see that now, I'm okay with it. But I wasn't starting out. I just had learnt that the 'name' I'd felt was very precious to my soul, was a variation of the nickname she'd given herself some time before, my sidereal SUN is exactly conjunct her tropical MOON, and her name is on my NNODE.

And I thought -- well, Randall doesn't like us to curse. But I knew. I knew it was time to explore something I didn't know -- territory for which I felt unprepared. Afraid. Hell -- terrified. And so I made rules. Hard negotiations. And she and I upheld them. My husband ... not so much. So, I made tougher rules. She and I became closer over him continually breaking them. And, eventually, it all started to work out.

He still can't allow himself to be happy for me when I've had a wonderful bonding experience with my boyfriend. But I'm genuinely happy every time he's with his girlfriend, and the sheer joy she feels. He used to feel it, too, but they have issues -- like any couple does. I tend to be the one to help them through it. You might say the 'thrill is gone', and he's not exactly in it for much but the razzle-dazzle.

But what he wanted was to control me. He wanted to possess me entirely. Not because he adores me, but because he has an innate need to control anything that is 'his'. I didn't like that, and I knew it was counterproductive to my own soul's growth and evolution. I decided instead to be mine, and to 'loan' myself out to those who I feel are worthy of the rental. But I belong to me.

I know that the ring on my finger would indicate otherwise. But that's not how it is. Love isn't control, in my book. And this whole experience has slowly, but surely, allowed me to ease myself into that understanding. That's why I can be truly happy when my husband has a wonderful experience with his girlfriend, and they're both silly and sappy with each other. I don't need to control him. A good deal of trust goes into these things, too. A negotiation between everyone involved that no one's going to upend the other's life. No home-wrecking. Not allowed.

I fear that some exclusivity is borne of two things -- an inability to go outside the status quo, and plain garden-variety insecurity. Some people absolutely cannot fathom being with another person; the other individual satisfies them in every shape and form. But that's pretty friggin' rare.

Though I will say, since my relationship with my boyfriend became -- I don't know what you call it; whatever counts as 'exclusive' between us, but only includes my marriage outside of it -- I think that's polyfidelity -- now 2 years ago, I finally felt 'married'. I felt 'done'. I had no further sense of 'maybe this ... ' or longing to resolve past relationships that never acquired closure. It's strange.

I became ... content.

---

My Venus in in Cancer, and my Leo Moon has lots of ego to stroke lol!

I do prefer monogamy (even if serial) simply because polyfedility sounds like far more work than this Gemini would want to tackle.

posted November 15, 2015 05:20 AM            

I've been tempted left and right lately. My boyfriend is in the states while I am in Europe. We decided we were exclusive a long time ago - he would NOT be cool with a polyamorous relationship, Nope. I can bend my mind towards it and see the benefits of one. He and I have not had that discussion for the reason of- his venus in scorpio will then decide I'm cheating and it'd be all over.

So, I committed myself emotionally this fall as we were apart. I believe he is the one for me, it's becoming more and more apparent to me by the weeks that we have something extremely stable and we've overcome mountains. BUT... I am extremely sexual. I am also in a profession that encourages a loottttt of sex appeal, lovemaking, etc. It's all about being attractive and flirtatious all the time. It can be very messy.

The last few months I've had the following happen, all of which I believe have perhaps been universal 'tests':

Right when I was about to move to Europe, my ex boyfriend (Whom I'd dated for about 4 years and everyone thought I'd marry), came to say goodbye to me and said he wanted to marry me. He kissed me (I stopped him), and begged to stay the night. I made him sleep on the floor. I turned him down. I remember thinking if that had happened 1 year before this, I would have hooked up with him.

Then I returned to Europe, and a friend of mine here hit on me mercilessly, asking me out at every turn. He's part of the group here that I am friends with (I wrote about this at the time). He would leave me endless texts about it, and would pull major romantic gestures to try and woo me, and I eventually confronted it saying that I wanted to just be friends. Nothing happened, he has respected it.

Another friend of mine came from out of town to visit, and we had a night out. He drank too much (ugh) and got to the point at the end of the night where he was clearly convinced I was going home with him and kept grabbing my face to try to make me kiss him. This obviously wasn't attractive no matter what my relationship state, but yeah, turned that sh** down.

Then this weekend, a guy I used to really have a thing for, who in another time in my life would probably be an awesome bf of some kind, came to visit. We hung out with friends of mine and talked for hours, and then last night I was passing out watching something with him and he made a move. This time, I told him I'm with someone, and he went to sleep in a different room.

All of this, let me put out there, is not normal for my life. I do not typically have guys making such huge gestures, trying to tempt my loneliness or make me question if I can really be loyal.

I have struggled in the past with remaining loyal to guys I was dating long term, long distance. This just is not a problem for me. I don't worry about if I'm 'missing out' and I don't feel like I can't overcome the temptation... I just simply do not want to do that to my relationship now. It means too much to me.

posted November 15, 2015 05:48 AM            

What do you think you are "losing" out on when a person cheats on you with another?

posted November 15, 2015 06:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
This may seem like a random question, but I still want to ask it;

What do you think you are "losing" out on when a person cheats on you with another?

What really bugs people about infidelity?

---

posted November 15, 2015 08:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
This may seem like a random question, but I still want to ask it;

What do you think you are "losing" out on when a person cheats on you with another?

What really bugs people about infidelity?

---

I mean, I think, kinda simply: if someone can cheat, they can also fall in love with and leave you for that person.

I think really the issue with cheating is the (very high) probability of losing the SO to the person they are cheating with.

posted November 15, 2015 10:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
This may seem like a random question, but I still want to ask it;

What do you think you are "losing" out on when a person cheats on you with another?

What really bugs people about infidelity?

---

posted November 15, 2015 10:47 AM            

I had never been cheated on before my Pisces love, of course I was in mostly open relationships and they never lasted more than 6 months tops, but still.

posted November 15, 2015 10:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mergoatsun:
YES! You're whole thread resonated with me on a deeper level.

I had never been cheated on before my Pisces love, of course I was in mostly open relationships and they never lasted more than 6 months tops, but still.

The person I thought was my soulmate and that I was with (exclusively) for over a year and everyone thought we were going to be married (I had the ring and everything) decided to cheat on me with his ex girlfriend that hated my guts. Him and I lived together and it felt great. He does not have any indicators in his chart that he would ever cheat, and hell he has a Venus in Taurus in the 4th house. He was supposed to be the king of stability and tradition, his Cap moon should prove this. On the flip side, I had all the "poor indicators" like the very famous Venus in Aqua. I was so dedicated to him, I cooked for him every night and made sure when he came home everything was nice. Yet, something felt off to me. I did a tarot reading and got very nasty cards, including the devil and the tower. Something in my gut felt off, my rational side tried to push it off because he had no time to cheat! He worked, went to school and came home to me. However, one day I checked his phone because his mom was calling and I saw texts from his ex. He was lying about me saying how jealous and over-possessive I was and how he never meant to hurt her. As the conversation progressed I saw that they agreed to meet to "catch-up" and that's when I knew. I remember crying for hours, I had been faithful to him, I had many opportunities to stray but I never did. I brought this up to him and he brushed it off as an over-reaction, but I knew by the look in his Pisces blue-green eyes.

My cap dom nature didn't want to let him go though and I stayed with him until he broke up with me saying he needed to sleep with more people and experiment. From that day on I learned that a cheater cannot be proved or disproved by a natal

---

Oops double post

posted November 15, 2015 12:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
This may seem like a random question, but I still want to ask it;

What do you think you are "losing" out on when a person cheats on you with another?

What really bugs people about infidelity?

---

What am I losing?

Trust. Love. Respect.

A person I can be naked with (and I'm not talking about clothes here).

I'm losing "not being alone anymore" and going back to "alone". But what the hell, you're born alone, you die alone, right?

I'm losing being loved. Or at least the illusion of being loved.

Let's not kid ourselves here. If you take your clothes off and have orgasms with somebody, either you are eventually going to bond emotionally with that person, or you're not the emotionally bonding type to begin with. If you are doing it behind my back, its going to naturally make you less open with me. In fact, you're probably going to start lying to me. Just little ones at first. Since you can't share all your feelings without being discovered, there goes that emotional closeness. He (the other man) has feelings and needs too. So now you're serving 2 "masters" (not literally, but in the sense that you're trying to meet the needs of two different people when those needs naturally conflict).

How can this end well for a relationship? How can it not be upsetting?

There was a story by a guy that lived through the tsunami back in 2010. He lived because he climbed up a tree. But his girlfriend wasn't so lucky. This man was helpless to do anything but watch as the tide took his love and carried her out to sea and to her death. Helpless to keep from losing her.

posted November 15, 2015 12:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by charlie:
I was gonna reply to this with some very eloquent words and wise thoughts but now that I've been thinking about it, I cannot answer your question.

Might have something to do with fact that I've done plenty of cheating myself and feel I can't point finger if I'm cheated on. I'd say to myself I had it coming. It'll hurt, sure, but I don't want to be a hypocrite and pretend I've been an angel.

---

I get you.

posted November 15, 2015 12:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cappi112:
I mean, I think, kinda simply: if someone can cheat, they can also fall in love with and leave you for that person.

I think really the issue with cheating is the (very high) probability of losing the SO to the person they are cheating with.

That's my only fear with it, anyway.

---

I understand. Fears are rarely rational anyways.

But don't you think that that is a sort of warped "insurance" for your own happiness? And not really a freedom that you are affording yourself and your partner?

Because what happens is that you go from being a lover to a policeman/investigator; ensuring that their "heart" stays with you.

What it sounds to me like is ;"Now that we are together. It is your job to ensure I never get hurt and that you never fall in-love with anyone else".

No partner can ever assure you that that will never happen. And you cannot ever assure them of the same- as both of you are evolving and changing.

Shouldn't the best thing that you can do for them is set yourself and them free from any obligations?

posted November 15, 2015 12:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
I understand. Fears are rarely rational anyways.

But don't you think that that is a sort of warped "insurance" for your own happiness? And not really a freedom that you are affording yourself and your partner?

Because what happens is that you go from being a lover to a policeman/investigator; ensuring that their "heart" stays with you.

What it sounds to me like is ;"Now that we are together. It is your job to ensure I never get hurt and that you never fall in-love with anyone else".

No partner can ever assure you that that will never happen. And you cannot ever assure them of the same- as both of you are evolving and changing.

Shouldn't the best thing that you can do for them is set yourself and them free from any obligations?

Shouldn't staying with you be a "choice" they make every day, rather than a "promise"?

---

Sorry, I'm confused.. are you referring to my post about avoiding temptation while away from my boyfriend? Or the OP?

My post about fearing someone leaving was in response to the question about why people look at cheating as 'bad' - that's not necessarily a mentality I share with the general collective, but what I perceive the 'fear' to be out there, and what - if I dig down and try to find a discomfort with cheating - I would give as my answer to that question.

I agree with you, and have never put restrictions on my SO about other women as a result. HOWEVER, because I love HIM, I've respected his wishes to be faithful while abroad and have been intrigued by how easy it is with him, in spite of my otherwise somewhat blurry views on what loyalty is and if cheating really is a deal-breaker.

posted November 15, 2015 12:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mergoatsun:
To me it's all about respect.

If a significant other makes the choice to cheat, that's one of the ultimate signs of disrespect.

If the person respected me enough to come talk to me about how they felt and how they felt about the relationship, I'd be understanding and we could talk about it.

When someone just goes and cheats they are disrespecting not only myself, but our relationship.

Not only that but everyone knows that cheating on your partner will hurt them:
When you cheat you either realize all of the consequences (including hurting your partner) or you're too rash to realize them which is still awful because to make such a big decision one should think it over.

To knowingly hurt someone you love by cheating is just not something I could get down with

---

I see.

But is the nature of the relationship really that flexible enough to allow that sort of communication to take place? i.e; "babes, i am really attracted to someone at work and would like to see where it goes?"

The minute we get into relationships, we learn to mask our impulses;some of us not that successfully in order to avoid hurting our partners(or shaming ourselves).

We want so badly to live up to the ideal that is projected upon us as well as the ideal of the relationship. But at some point we fail.

posted November 15, 2015 01:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gemini Blues:
What am I losing?

Trust. Love. Respect.

A person I can be naked with (and I'm not talking about clothes here).

I'm losing "not being alone anymore" and going back to "alone". But what the hell, you're born alone, you die alone, right?

I'm losing being loved. Or at least the illusion of being loved.

Let's not kid ourselves here. If you take your clothes off and have orgasms with somebody, either you are eventually going to bond emotionally with that person, or you're not the emotionally bonding type to begin with. If you are doing it behind my back, its going to naturally make you less open with me. In fact, you're probably going to start lying to me. Just little ones at first. Since you can't share all your feelings without being discovered, there goes that emotional closeness. He (the other man) has feelings and needs too. So now you're serving 2 "masters" (not literally, but in the sense that you're trying to meet the needs of two different people when those needs naturally conflict).

How can this end well for a relationship? How can it not be upsetting?

There was a story by a guy that lived through the tsunami back in 2010. He lived because he climbed up a tree. But his girlfriend wasn't so lucky. This man was helpless to do anything but watch as the tide took his love and carried her out to sea and to her death. Helpless to keep from losing her.

I know how he feels.

---

Wow. What a sad story.

I think most people are afraid of true intimacy.

When we speak of 'opening' ourselves up completely to another.This goes beyond bearing our naked bodies to each other.But the bearing of all our vulnerabilities.

Is romantic love designed to deal with vulnerabilities, but projected 'ideals'?

posted November 15, 2015 01:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
This may seem like a random question, but I still want to ask it;

What do you think you are "losing" out on when a person cheats on you with another?

What really bugs people about infidelity?

---

It means I'm no longer enough for the person or that they didn't bother to share their sexual or emotional needs with me. So they can proceed to go f- themselves somewhere else.
My two cents

posted November 15, 2015 01:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cappi112:
Also, I think while it is fair to say that we can't promise we will NEVER evolve to wanting to date/be with other people, I think that the point is that if you love someone and they ask something like exclusivity of you, you can agree to it (unless you absolutely feel it is against who you are). I disagree that LOVE means being able to screw around with others freely. I believe love is supporting someone and working/ cooperating with them so that you are both happy, whatever that may mean. THAT is where flexibility needs to take place. Respect, honesty, support, and openness. No ownership. But yes, if my boyfriend is uncomfortable with me having sex or messing around with other guys right now, I have no problem being faithful to him, because I love him and that's what I'm able to offer to him right now.

Tl;dr: I think every relationship is unique and requires unique things, and it's up to the individuals to decide what real love means: faithfulness, exclusivity, polyamory, and so on.

---

Yes, I agree.

I have pondered on this a great deal. Especially the issue of my partner having sex with other people.

The problem that I have always had with romantic love,is that it does tend to force people into contracts and agreements.

And I have always wondered whether or not the need to have our partners be "faithful" to us is because of inherent insecurity?

That perhaps there is indeed something "perfect" or "groundbreaking" about someone that they cheat on us with that we simply cannot compete?

If one were to catch their lover locked in heat with another.The questions compound;

Is there something more "intimate" that they share that we couldn't reach? The jealousy and the envy of their experience,is what causes the anger for me.

Is it that we often associate the act of sex with the highest level of intimacy between two people? And exclusive only to the people concerned?

My fear about cheating is that my partner is having this experience with another. And that I am left out in the cold etc.

In truth , it is "I" that would like to believe that the experience should be reserved for . "I" should be the one who makes him feel like that and gives them that ultimate orgasm. And the experience of that kind of intimacy should only belong to "me" etc.

But this is not true confidence,but conceit and insecurity. Because true confidence does not need an exclusive ownership of any experience to know itself as worthy and complete.

What I fear in relationships is that I won't matter. And this feeds to the age old "i am not worthy" belief system most of us have had for eons.

posted November 15, 2015 01:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soltze:
It means I'm no longer enough for the person or that they didn't bother to share their sexual or emotional needs with me. So they can proceed to go f- themselves somewhere else.

My two cents

---

It hurts like hell..

posted November 15, 2015 01:45 PM            

You want something where its just "I've got an itch and I like how you scratch it" kind of thing? No worries.

Something more where we share a bed and expenses? Let's talk.

posted November 15, 2015 01:53 PM            

I think that a lot of people in this world have been burned so much by partners cheating or wanting others or leaving, that it is in some ways easier for them to be all "well so whatever, I'd rather he/she go out and get theirs with someone else and 'get it out of their systems' than leave me or something."

It's just not black and white. How I feel in this relationship is totally and completely different from how I felt in the last, and the one before that. I may have another relationship again after this wherein polyamory is totally awesome and acceptable and works well for us. But in this one, that's not the case, and it would feel sickening and wrong for me to cheat on my guy.

So in my opinion, there is no one correct view of love and what love means. There's just not. In the end, I really believe true love is loving someone unconditionally, however that fits into your lives and personalities. It cannot possibly be the same from person to person and we all need to stop trying to define what true love is for everyone else.

What is it for you?
How would YOU feel if the person you loved was cheating?
How do YOU feel about cheating ON the person you love?

posted November 15, 2015 02:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
What really bugs people about infidelity?

---

For me, it's complicated; almost as if something is sacred for a period of time until true security is established. Either that, or greater understanding of the other's joy -- whether that's overcoming my own fears or not.

... I haven't had my coffee yet. So, bear with me.

But it's as if I know when I no longer need that 'crutch' in my relationship.

Sex is a big issue for me, not because 'it's sex' -- it's not a big issue to everyone, after all. And, to a MOON-URA, it shouldn't really be. But, my CHIRON retrograded into my 8H at age 7, and, well, it became fully established as my core wound when I first attempted sex (age 22), but didn't yet know I was vaginistic. I think it's just a blessing I'm asexual; it could've bothered me more on the 'I need this' rather than 'WHY CAN'T I DO THIS THING?' level. (Virgo rising. We don't like to be unable to do something. (Incapable; ugh.)

When my husband and I began having emotional issues, and my therapist suggested that it was harmful for me to continue a sexual relationship, my body was already unconsciously kicking in to 'protect' me. I'd come to be able to have intercourse, while accepting 'the good pain' (spoilers: there IS no 'good pain') intromission requires, by pretty much following the script in my head, which allowed me to be present (at least, I thought so) and get the job done, so that he was happy. (It also bears mentioning that he and I had a kinky sexual relationship from the absolute beginning; there were always accoutrements and fantasy play and all of that. As a therapist, I've later come to determine that this was a big mistake. We never really found how we interacted without the bells and whistles, save for one fantastic experience that was raw and wonderful -- but a fluke).

He wasn't happy. Not really. He wouldn't tell me for awhile, however, and for the first time on the podcast we hosted together. So, not only did I hear it for the first time -- our listenership did, too. I'd gotten very good at shutting out my emotional reactions (years of practise) and was able to hold it together on the show. But the combination was a deep blow. I'd been heavily relying upon his perception of my being the technically skilled and good sexual partner that I'd come to regard myself as -- privately, but also in more private company -- my close girlfriends, and, obviously, past lovers.

For him to basically say that I wasn't into it, and wasn't very good, and he 'knows when a woman's into it' and could tell that I wasn't -- I was crushed. I secretly raged against the notion; I closely evaluated myself. I came to decide, okay, I'm probably not very good, and, he was putting up with it because he loves me, and this is probably the best that I'm ever going to get, so, I'm going to be grateful.

Then I started therapy. For other reasons. I was stunned to realise how easily I'd been replacing my own understanding of reality with the perceptions of others, because, once gaslighted, it's HARD to get that out of your system and return to YOU.

It also helped me realise something I'd missed:

He wasn't that into it, either! Not because of me, but because he's not that into sex itself. He's just not. He'd secretly be doing these other kinky things, and being submissive. But, to this DAY, he STILL labours under the delusion that he really wants sex, and he just wants a woman who wants the sex as much as he does, and then he could be happy and normal and everything would be gravy.

Yeeeeahhhh, no. He forget that me and his ex-girlfriend immediately before are buds. And we both know what's up.

He ain't that into it.

He's like ... Anastasia Steele in her 'sure, you can tie me up, Christian, whatever you want,' while thinking: 'how do I get the billionaire boyfriend?'

In other words, every submissive man EVER. Sorry to be jaded, but YES.

And this is the reality. Sexual lives are long, and lengthening. 99.9% of sexually-oriented, sexually active adults will get bored with sex at some point; it'll lose it's thrill. The thingie goes in the thingie, it moves around, I can balance my checkbook while he 'hunts' for my G-spot, and he can secretly bang '80s era Pam Anderson in his mind, aaaaaand we're good.

Oh, Lord, NO. We are NOT good. We are so, SO very NOT GOOD. This is BAD. Our approach is growing obsolete, but our modern world isn't helping us to find new methods and new approaches -- whether they be monogamous or polyamorous or asexual or sexual.

Somewhere along the line, we started apeing sex, and stopped having it.

And, the truth is, infidelity, and the fear of betrayal, is actually rooted in our crazy lizard brains that can't deal with the reality (even the thought, in most cases) of our partner doing the horizontal monkey-dance with someone else. WE FREAK OUT on a VERY primal level -- no matter WHAT our rational brains say about it.

And, I gotta say, it's the polyamor that's actively dealing with all of this complicated stuff: possession, jealousy, insecurity, envy, fear, and the fear of change. Hell, the fear of happiness, too. It's a thing. There's this misconception that the polyamorous feel no jealousy. Noooooo. No, no, we just deal with it. We go to those who've been there, and have experienced what we're going through now, and we go to our partner's partner and are honest that we're freaking out. AND, if we've all chosen well, we get CLOSER because of it, and feel happier, and LESS AFRAID.

To me, that's a win.

BUT THIS IS NOT INFIDELITY.

Those who do not actually fear infidelity are not becoming truly invested in any one person. That has its benefits as well as its costs.

And while I've blathered on periodically about this, it's the sexual apeing that my boyfriend and I began to undertake, when we approached a sexual relationship with each other. We figured, being excellent friends with a genuine love for each other, and having experience with a strong working relationship, we could explore sex together, and, hey, it'd all be well. He could help me recover myself after a long period (3 years) of being 'revirginised' (but not really; when you're vaginistic, you can lose the ability to have intercourse after a long dry spell) and, maybe in the process, he'd decide that this whole sex thing is pretty groovy.

Mmm. Best laid plans. Sex in a Petri dish has its own drawbacks. Change the stimulus and remove the controlled environment and ... let's just say, I learnt very quickly the fine line between true healing and very good conditioning.

... yay, CHIRON!

But, I've got to say, NOW, two years later, we've actually had a few legitimate sexual experiences, in which we were able to both say, 'hey, THAT was sex.'

And I wondered ... am I cool with letting him have sex with someone else yet? Is it okay ... now?

Hm. ... No. And, he doesn't want to, either.

Weird. I know, I know. 'But that's normal, Auby.' Yeah, probably. Emotions got involved, no doubt. (They did.) And sex was never something big on either of our lists, though we're fine with engaging in it if there's a purpose -- and can, and do, legitimately enjoy it that way. But neither of us have an independent need for sex, which has proved a bit of a headache.

But it also showed us where -- frankly, everyone else we know -- was 'doin' it wrong'. They were bringing two separate fantasies to the table and incorporating physical stimulation to create this facsimile of sex which, really, was just hands-free, mutual masturbation.

And my husband said, 'uhh, yeah, that's what sex is.'

And I was HORRIFIED. And I said, NO! It HAS to be MORE than that! Because if THAT's it, then WHY do we look for love at all? Why do we marry at all? Why does it matter whose genitalia is inserted into whose genitalia -- AT ALL?

And, despite his not quite grokking the whole sex thing, my boyfriend was horrified as well. I mean, he doesn't get the point of sex outside of, y'know, procreative efforts. Sure, it feels good, but it's hardly as good as other things.

So, we deconstructed physical sex, and orgasm, and how emotions play into it -- or don't. Today, we have intercourse removing our own clothes. Today, we incorporate eye-contact. (THAT one failed for a very long time.) Today, we remove each other's clothes. Today, we allow ourselves nervous chatter. Today, we'll stay totally silent.

Afterward, we evaluate our moods; you feel good? Little lightheaded? Do you want to be near me, or does it matter? Are you thinking about work, or not?

We wouldn't include orgasmic response for a long time, either. Way too many confounding variables. Orgasm is kind of humanity's ultimate cheat code.

It's probably what makes people pretty crazy when it comes to infidelity, too. There's a primal part, in a connected individual, that remembers that moment of vulnerability with another person -- le petit mort. It's appropriately named. (We've studied that, too, but had to backtrack into more basic things for awhile before continuing. It was a little cart before the horse.)

And the realisation that another human being has seen and experienced that, had that moment with your partner to whom you gave this, with whom you shared this -- it hits a point beneath logic and sense. It's that reptile brain. Straight to the amygdala.

Polyamory allows a genuine dialogue, whereas, in a betrayal, there is none. 'I'd really like this; would you give me this gift?' the partner of your partner is saying to you. TO YOU. That's why it's a negotiation of everyone involved. YOU are actively giving THAT gift TO your partner's PARTNER, as well as them.

It becomes about joy and happiness, and a sense of control, and empowerment. NONE of these which are present in infidelity and betrayal.

So, teal deer-wise:

It's about sex, namely. There's a primal red-alert area of the brain that goes bonkers when we're betrayed: our power has been usurped, we've been degraded, judged falsely and harshly, and feel violated for giving something precious (on this primal level, which registers as death to the brain, for a very short period of time) to someone who has 'regifted' it.

Because regifting is kinda crappy anyway. Regifting your partner's vulnerability is double-plus ungood, VERY BAD.

posted November 15, 2015 02:28 PM            

Noting also that if someone can love several people at the same time, and everybody consents I'm totally fine with it. I believe Aubyanne for example has a very open and honest posture.
I respect that 100%.