posted December 22, 2015 10:27 PM            

Such as, what makes, versus receives, an aspect.

I was taught, if it's a calculated point, it can only receive -- chief among them being the NODES, VERTICES, and BML / PRIAPUS. All mathematical points.

Midpoints, on the other hand, I was also taught (I think, mainly by Munkasey) can only receive aspects unless they are physical points also making aspects.

For example, two bodies or points out of orb of conjunction that both square the NODES. I'm cool with that. They're not conjunct, but they still both form squares to the NODES.

But let's say they don't; that it's merely a midpoint of two points that are making no aspects; the midpoint of the two just happens to fall within orb of squaring the NODES or VERTICES. I'm under the impression that isn't a valid aspect, as midpoints can receive aspects, but not make them.

I've tried to get answers on this from astrologers who use these techniques, but to no avail.

What are your thoughts, guys?

Do midpoints make aspects as well as receive them if no auxiliary aspects are also being made which involve the two points?

Can axes make, as well as receive, aspects as well? Or do points like the VERTEX and NODES only receive?

posted December 22, 2015 11:38 PM            

Aspects are activated when physical bodies or points move through timespace. 0Aries Sun is opp 0Libra Sun, separated by 180d or half of a cycle. Similarly, 0Aries Moon is opp 0Libra Moon. Relatively easy to see, in case of moving planets.

However, points can and do also move over time. North and South Nodes (and Eclipses), Vertex/Antivertex, etc. Moon's Nodes take approx. 18 years to complete Saros cycle, Vertex cycles back. Part of Fortune cycles every month or so. So points also make aspects in timespace.

Midpoints also move over time, therefore can make aspects. Ebertin midpoint trees demonstrate this.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aubyanne:
So, I've been at this astrology thang for awhile. I've learnt a great many things in that time, and among them are certain elements of aspect analysis.

Such as, what makes, versus receives, an aspect.

I was taught, if it's a calculated point, it can only receive -- chief among them being the NODES, VERTICES, and BML / PRIAPUS. All mathematical points.

Midpoints, on the other hand, I was also taught (I think, mainly by Munkasey) can only [b]receive aspects unless they are physical points also making aspects.

For example, two bodies or points out of orb of conjunction that both square the NODES. I'm cool with that. They're not conjunct, but they still both form squares to the NODES.

But let's say they don't; that it's merely a midpoint of two points that are making no aspects; the midpoint of the two just happens to fall within orb of squaring the NODES or VERTICES. I'm under the impression that isn't a valid aspect, as midpoints can receive aspects, but not make them.

I've tried to get answers on this from astrologers who use these techniques, but to no avail.

What are your thoughts, guys?

Do midpoints make aspects as well as receive them if no auxiliary aspects are also being made which involve the two points?

Can axes make, as well as receive, aspects as well? Or do points like the VERTEX and NODES only receive?

Thanks. This may be a bit esoteric and even controversial, but I feel it's important in regards to any application of astrology.[/B]

---

posted December 22, 2015 11:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aubyanne:
So, I've been at this astrology thang for awhile. I've learnt a great many things in that time, and among them are certain elements of aspect analysis.

Such as, what makes, versus receives, an aspect.

I was taught, if it's a calculated point, it can only receive -- chief among them being the NODES, VERTICES, and BML / PRIAPUS. All mathematical points.

Midpoints, on the other hand, I was also taught (I think, mainly by Munkasey) can only [b]receive aspects unless they are physical points also making aspects.

For example, two bodies or points out of orb of conjunction that both square the NODES. I'm cool with that. They're not conjunct, but they still both form squares to the NODES.

But let's say they don't; that it's merely a midpoint of two points that are making no aspects; the midpoint of the two just happens to fall within orb of squaring the NODES or VERTICES. I'm under the impression that isn't a valid aspect, as midpoints can receive aspects, but not make them.

I've tried to get answers on this from astrologers who use these techniques, but to no avail.

What are your thoughts, guys?

Do midpoints make aspects as well as receive them if no auxiliary aspects are also being made which involve the two points?

Can axes make, as well as receive, aspects as well? Or do points like the VERTEX and NODES only receive?

Thanks. This may be a bit esoteric and even controversial, but I feel it's important in regards to any application of astrology.[/B]

---

posted December 23, 2015 12:04 AM            

Hi there, mar1982delta. Nice to see a beginner in here. Even as it's an advanced topic, that's how we learn, yeah?

To return to comdoc's statement, let's look at each segment or degree as 'time-space'. Even if neither axis can make aspects, and only receive, there's a deep synthesis here, due to occupying the same 'time-space'. And since we have two very powerful axes -- NODES and VERTICES -- occupying and sharing this energy, so that it's 'co-energy', there's undoubtedly a relationship.

posted December 23, 2015 12:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aubyanne:
Thanks, comdoc. Very insightful, even if not quite answering the question. But I do agree with your statements.

Hi there, mar1982delta. Nice to see a beginner in here. Even as it's an advanced topic, that's how we learn, yeah?

To return to comdoc's statement, let's look at each segment or degree as 'time-space'. Even if neither axis can make aspects, and only receive, there's a deep synthesis here, due to occupying the same 'time-space'. And since we have two very powerful axes -- NODES and VERTICES -- occupying and sharing this energy, so that it's 'co-energy', there's undoubtedly a relationship.

What's the orb, curiously? Gotta keep 'em tight.

---

Oh you mean thats because the very same axis is that is conjunct? Thats why it is so powerful? Yes, the orb is tight, 1'06 : his NN in leo 29' 22" (6th house) /my vertex 0'28" virgo (7th house)

posted December 23, 2015 12:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by comdoc:
Yes, midpoints can make aspects. Yes, with axes and calculated points. Sorry if that wasn't clear from what I wrote.

Auby wrote: "Very insightful, even if not quite answering the question".

---

Thanks for the clarification Comdoc! Its not your fault for the misunderstanding, I actually posted my comment the same time as you did, so when I posted I hadnt actually read your answer! Thanks again!

posted December 23, 2015 01:40 AM            

Chiron and Pluto conjuncting it was very rough, that point for me does not mess around. Moon rules my 8th and Saturn in scorpio conjuncts my Pluto in Libra, further Saturn rules my 2nd.

posted December 23, 2015 01:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by comdoc:
Yes, midpoints can make aspects. Yes, with axes and calculated points. Sorry if that wasn't clear from what I wrote.

Auby wrote: "Very insightful, even if not quite answering the question".

---

Thanks, comdoc. I totally get your 'shares the same time-space'. But I'm surprised that you're of the opinion that they can make aspects as well as receive them. Feels off to me. Like it's just a point in space that serves as a vessel which something can fill. But I can't see that vessel being 'filled' with blank space. It just doesn't jibe for me.

posted December 23, 2015 09:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aubyanne:

Do midpoints make aspects as well as receive them if no auxiliary aspects are also being made which involve the two points?

Can axes make, as well as receive, aspects as well? Or do points like the VERTEX and NODES only receive?

---

My understanding of midpoints is that they're like a bruise on your chart, they hurt when things press them. Even if you can press a bruise onto something else, it would still only hurt the bruise, and not the body part you were pressing it with.

Bruises and pain are probably a bit of an inaccurately-negative way of putting it, but it's the clearest way of getting it straight in my head!

Relating to that, I have some further questions (please feel free to ignore if they're nonsense, I'm a novice too):

- Midpoints work on the assumption that two bodies have an equal potency and their energy actually meets in the middle. Is this still true if you're looking at the midpoint between something that is very prominent in the chart, and something that isn't? What if you're looking at the midpoint between a great big luminary and a teeny-tiny asteroid?
(I appreciate that it would be impossible to calculate, but I always wonder).

- How does this impact on the meaning of a composite, which is basically a chart of midpoints? Would there be value in, for example, calculating the midpoints of yin/yang elements between two charts, like one person's Sun to the other person's Moon (and vv), or one person's Venus and another's Mars?

posted December 23, 2015 03:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind writer:
I'm on board that a physical point must be in play.

To paint a clearer picture: Say the nodes are at Aries/Libra 0°. You've got SUN at Gemini 10° and MARS at Cancer 20°. The orb is too wide for a square, but the midpoint is Cancer 0°, square the nodes. It's a floating and irrelevant point, which can only be activated by the transit of a physical body.

---

posted December 23, 2015 10:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vajra:
If I remember correctly I've seen you use some of the hypothetical planets on occasion, e.g. Hades. Now those 'planets' are strictly speaking only calculated points in space, as it's by now certain (at least as far as I know) that there are no actual physical objects circling the Sun where they were once supposed to be. Therefore - if you think hypothetical planets are valid, and can be used in charts, does this then mean that they can make aspects, or do they only receive them? And in the former case, where would the difference be between a hypothetical planet vs. e.g. a midpoint or other calculated point, given they are not physically existent?

---

posted December 23, 2015 11:35 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seimei:
I am fairly sure I am not understanding.
I will say that midpoints can be progressed to mc or anything.

I will also say one midpoint progressed to the midpoint of another plays out if there is something else there by transit or from the radix.
Such if in solar arc directions the Jp/Pl midpoint comes to the natal venus/node midpoint even in hard aspect(say135) and not directly and another factor whether natal, transit or the planet of another person hits that point then the energies implied by all are in play.
in direction or progressions,,or the other point could even be from the solar return

---

And if you direct the node to the point that it hits natal MC,, are you saying the node is the receiver of MC?

posted December 24, 2015 06:06 PM            

I'm reminded of when I was a very young astrologer and hadn't quite grasped the way the chart is calculated in terms of house structure. It seemed we had 'every sign' in each of us. And while we kinda-sorta do -- we clearly don't.

To me, midpoints feel like those empty houses I counted as 'signs I had'. Unless something occupied that house, it was a vessel awaiting fulfilment, or requiring activation of some kind.

I like to use the circumstance or potential configuration with my ex-producing partner, the ol' 'karmic soulmate / false twin flame' thingummy. It's just kinda rare and cool.

So he's got his VENUS/MARS and EROS/PSYCHE midpoints at 19° and 18° Aquarius respectively. Now, this is the actual breakdown.

13° AQU | VENUS
25° AQU | MARS
10° AQU | EROS
26° AQU | PSYCHE

So, it's:

VENUS/MARS = 19° AQU
EROS/PSYCHE = 18° AQU

Now, my SNODE is 18° AQU '30.

So, it would appear ...

SNODE=VENUS/MARS (0°30)
SNODE=EROS/PSYCHE (0°30)

As it's smack in the middle there. BUT. It's a NODE, and NODES only receive. And if midpoints receive, and NODES receive, then it's tough to say if anything is really happening. DID my SNODE activate these two very crucial midpoints? Or can it not do that?

Since THAT's an issue for me, you can imagine my feelings on empty midpoints squaring a NODAL axis. That just makes me blink repeatedly. I mean, I'm all for listening to the theories behind that decision. But I just can't quite grasp it. It feels too out there. Really, too empty.

Feels a bit like cheating, too. Like how many empty midpoints are 'squaring' things? But how fewer midpoints which ALSO contain a point conjunct them also square things? Especially as we kind of need something to characterise the midpoint, too.

We need a point or planet to give it a nature for the midpoint to express.

Without a point ON the midpoint, it feels like it's lost a part of its plan; like it lacks instructions. The potential for expression is there, but minus the point conjunct (or opposite) it, there's nothing with which it may express itself. It lacks a nature.

That's why conjunction to a NODE or other calculated point is perplexing to me. We could say that the NNODE will express it via growth and development, and the SNODE gives it a karmic feel or sense of 'been there done that'.

But it goes a little further in the example above:

Since my SNODE is 18°, his VENUS is technically very widely conjunct it. His MARS, too. So, these both make wide aspects of:

SNODE conjunct VENUS (5°)
SNODE conjunct MARS (7°)

But we can't say the same for EROS (8°) or PSYCHE (8°). Way out of orb.

What to determine?

Can we say that, because of the 0°30 separation of his VENUS/MARS and EROS/PSYCHE midpoints, they're technically taken together? But midpoints don't transfer light -- only occupy shares space.

It's really a very grey area, isn't it?

Yet, we might say there's an influence, given the strong nature and 'karmic expression' of the SNODE involvement with these two midpoints. Perhaps that's due to the very wide conjunctions of VENUS and MARS with the SNODE? So that the exact conjunction on the midpoint sorta 'seals the deal'? As the VENUS/MARS midpoint is essentially taking VENUS/X and MARS/X together. Or does it merely become redundant?

posted December 27, 2015 04:26 PM            

My ex northnode is on this midpoint and Mr.Aqua 's vertex is on this midpoint.

My relationship with both has a strong eros-erato theme so it makes me wonder but conjunctions are not really an aspect.

posted December 27, 2015 05:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seimei:
SO if my ve/mars is 12vi18 and Jp/Ur is 12sc31
so I call it a sextile?

---

posted December 27, 2015 05:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hypatia238:
Erato-Eros Midpoint 62,433

My ex northnode is on this midpoint and Mr.Aqua 's vertex is on this midpoint.

My relationship with both has a strong eros-erato theme so it makes me wonder but conjunctions are not really an aspect.

I definitely feel his vertex on my sothnode and my AC and his IC.

---