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Author Topic:   Misadventures in Theorycraft
Gemini Blues
Knowflake

Posts: 1123
From: The future... or the past. I get them confused...
Registered: May 2014

posted May 29, 2016 10:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gemini Blues     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...or, does astrology really work?

Let me start with a small confession. One of my motivations in perusing the study of astrology is in its application in helping me to find "Her". Ms Right for me, as it were. I blame it on my Venus conjunct NN. Or that I'm over 50 and too young to consider living the rest of my life alone and too old to wait for lighting to strike. Take your pick.

So I got this idea. Sun conjunct Moon is supposed to be the gold standard of relationships, right? I actually dated a lady with her Sun conjunct my Moon, and it has its nice points. So, what if I could find the double whammy? Sun conjunct Moon both ways?

So, off to my Astrotab app I went. The first part is easy. For her Sun to be conjunct my Moon, she needs to be born August 6th, though anything from the 5th through the 7th should be just fine. Even the 4th and 8th would still fall within a 3° orb, but for this little experiment, we'll focus on the 6th.

Next, I need Moon at or near 22 1/2° Gemini. I ran through each year starting 10 years older than me to 20 years younger. It turns out, there are 2 years (only) where the moon is in Gemini during the correct days in August, 1961 and 1980. So, I've got a choice between 3 years older than me, or 16 years younger. For sake of practicality, I'm focusing on 1961. Mind you, if a 36 year old Leo fell out of the sky, I wouldn't discount her out of hand... but that's a reach to be sure.

So. in Aug 6 61, the moon makes the conjunction to my sun around 2pm local time. Figure anywhere from noon to 4pm is going to be close enough to exact, with a few more hours either way still being close enough to feel it. That gives the possibility of Asc conj Asc, DC conjunct Jupiter, DC conjunct Mars, Asc conjunct AntiVertex, DC conjunct Sun and DC conjunct Venus and NN. Any of which could be helpful.

In addition, this theoretical person would place her Venus conjunct my Venus and NN, Pluto sextile Venus, and Mars trine Mars. Venus -Mars would be great, but I'm still lucky for what I got. There's also a Saturn-Venus trine and a Mars-Saturn trine for some glue.

I'd love to post the charts, but TinyPic isn't working for me at the moment, so I'm going to need to figure out something else.

Great. Now I have an idea of what to look for. Only one problem. How do I find her?

Off to POF I go. (This is another reason I discounted the 36 year old. POF won't let me search for that big of an age difference.) So, set the filters for 54 years old, and Leo. Now, sometimes the ladies are "helpful" enough to put their birthday in their user name. Lots of 727s, Some 822s... but no 0806s... I wonder if moon signs influence how comfortable people are about sharing info like that... Anyway, no immediate luck.

Just as an aside, I did a celebrity search for the date in question. The only hit I got for Aug 6 was an adult film star. I did find one for August 4th however. Still Leo Sun, Gem Moon, but the moon was way out of position (conjunct my Nessus) and Mars was a little bit earlier, more square my Sun...

Barack Obama (August 4, 1961)

Really? I mean... really? Got to tell you... It's kind of shaking my faith in astrology here... Does this stuff work or not?

Back to the topic... So, how to I identify the lovely lady I'm looking for from a list of 54 year old lady Leos? How do I pick the ones with Moon in Gemini? Any ideas?

Or has my 8th house Sun finally consumed me and my Uranus-Saturn-Mercury T square finally led me to the brink of insanity?

Or option 3? Good idea, but I failed to take some factor into account? If so, what?

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Lotis White
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From: USA
Registered: Dec 2010

posted May 30, 2016 01:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lotis White     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The problem here is that you're focusing on only having specific aspects in synastry, and not on the natal symbolism of your 5th, 7th, and 8th houses, or the secondary 7th house.

Just because you have double whammy Sun/Moon with somebody doesn't not mean you'll actually fall in love. You could find the women with the perfect birthdate only to have her not be interested because you're not her type... A person's type is shown by their 5th, 7th, and 8th houses, as well as the gender planets. If you don't match the symbolism of these houses in her chart to some extent, while she might like you due to synastry aspects, you may not actually fall for you.

Generally, it's ideal to for you to match your partner's 5th, 7th, and 8th houses, and for them to match yours. That way your both each others type, and the interest is likely to be mutual.

If you know your birthtime, then you'll know what signs you have on your own 5th, 7th, and 8th house cusps, what planets are in these houses, and what signs the rulers of the cusps are in. These three houses describe energy types that you tend to fall for on a women. Any women you get serious with would need to symbolically match these houses for you for there to be sparks between you. And vice versa.

How you check this is by noting if your partner meets any of the following criteria...

*The partner overlays planets in these (5th, 7th, and 8th) houses.

*The partner has planets in the same sign as the rulers of these houses.E.g. Dsc ruler in Virgo and the partner having Virgo planets.

*The partner has planets in a sign ruled by a planet in one of these three houses. E.g. You have Mars in the 5th house and she has Aries planets.

*The partner has planets in her chart strongly apsecting your 5th, 7th, and 8th house rulers. Aspects like this give you chemistry with another.

If you're are Gemini/Leo person, then it would be good to see Gemini/Leo in your partners 5th, 7th, and 8th houses. Gemini and Leo on the cusps, the cusp rulers in Gemini or Leo, or Sun and Mercury sitting in the 5th, 7th, or 8th houses.

There are synastry aspects that are thought of as creating attraction and liking. Sun/Moon is one of them. However we don't fall for everybody we meet of the opposite sex that we share these aspects with. If we did we'd probably fall in love every time we went to the grocery shopping. Synastry aspects are a very important part of attraction and compatibility but they are not the whole story. So what's the difference between a Sun/Moon aspect functioning on a platonic level, and a Sun/Moon aspect that turns to romantic attraction? The answer is the relationship houses. When somebody aspects the rulers of 5th, 7th, and 8th houses, or matches the symbolism of these house with their natal chart, it's as if this 'activates' whatever synastry you share with them in a potentially romantic light. If you happen to also share an aspect like Sun/Moon, Mars/Venus, and so on, with them these aspects can become activated. By 'activated' I mean that a switch in their psyche can be flipped which changes their perspective on you from a platonic one to a romantic one. If you don't have any typical attraction producing interplanetary synastry with them (no Sun/Moon, Venus/Mars, and so on), then the relationship will stay platonic even if they fill up your 5th, 7th, and 8th houses.

Attraction and compatibility is really a balancing act between two major factors...

1. Someone being your type according to the 5th, 7th, and 8th houses (As I've described, there is more then one way for a partner to match these houses for you- See the list above).

2. Someone also having typical attraction producing interplanetary synastry with you.

Once you have both factors in one person then you have a good match. If you really want to identify an 'ideal partner' chart you may need to refine your methods (although whether or not you'll find such a women is a different matter). First check if she could be your type symbolically, and then check for good synastry aspects between the charts. That's really the best theory for identifying an ideal partner chart.

Also, if you post your chart a few of us may give you some tips as to what to look out for.

I've done a few threads that go into this topic in detail if you're interested.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PLATONIC AND ROMANTIC SYNASTRY http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum37/HTML/000019.html

SYNASTRY OF ATTRACTION: WHY IT DOES OR DOESN’T WORK http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/216505.html

Both of these threads are from the LL Reference Library. If you read them you should have a pretty good idea of how to figure it all out.

The best way to do it really is to find someone first, and then see if they're a good match. There's no way to guarantee we'll meet somebody with the exact chart that we'd want.

However, I admit I've done the same thing myself. I've found a chart for my 'ideal mate' using my 5th, 7th and 8th house symbolism, and certain synastry aspects that I want in a partner, as my guide. My thinking is... This is my ideal guy until I find the real deal. It was a fun project!

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Elysia
Knowflake

Posts: 1433
From: Gotham
Registered: Aug 2015

posted May 30, 2016 07:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Elysia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the premise itself might be the problem.
Is a Leo sun truly the best possible thing for a Leo moon? Conjunctions between the Sun & Moon do produce a great sense of kinship, but the sign matters too. If it's Leo..depends, is there room on stage for two stars?

We don't necessarily need a mirror of ourselves, we need someone who completes and contains us. Now that may not be quite so straightforward as someone whose Sun conjuncts our moon. Sometimes, a trine is what we need, sometimes a square - depending on the natal receptacle, a different astrological cocktail fits the bill.

Like Lotis says, the true needs of your 5th, 7th & 8th should be reflected in your search.

Also, IMO, the synastry and composite, et al are just the circuitry - you can have all the so-called 'connections' in place, yet feel nothing. 'Coz the switch hasn't been flipped *on*. It takes some undefinable spark to *connect* two people in the first place. That's the synastry circuit being switched 'on'. Whether or not the relationship survives depends on how the synastry/composite/what-have-you plays out. But yeah, something has to be activated in the atmosphere itself, on a primal level - for the rest to be considered.

Analysing and/or basing decisions off of synastry without having that spark, is like trying to cook by putting all the ingredients in the pot, but not turning the stove on.

^ I know you said you don't believe in / can't really wait for a lightning bolt to strike. But it will, when the time comes. I know it sounds sappy, but you will feel it when it's right.

Having said that, if you want to continue with an active search - then I suggest you take another look at your chart the way Lotis says and maybe widen your net a little. More fishys to choose from.

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Selene
Knowflake

Posts: 1393
From:
Registered: Apr 2013

posted May 30, 2016 08:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Selene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Personally i do not believe in 'searching' for the right person based on astrology! You will be together with someone not because they have this and that but because of who they are as persons. That's what it should be.

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comdoc
Knowflake

Posts: 446
From: Tucson
Registered: Feb 2015

posted May 30, 2016 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for comdoc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi GB. I've been doing something similar since I was a teenager. Discovered that the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Cookbook recipe does not necessarily make a great dish. That aside, here are some ingredients to try.

Scan those 30 years for resonant inner planet groups by sign. Your Gemini Sun and Leo Moon. So Air and Fire signs resonate well. Begin by searching for years in which Sun, Mercury, Venus inner planets are all in Fire and/or Air signs. Most common will be all 3 in same sign. Venus can also fall 2 signs away--but that is more rare.

Then, out of those group years, look for Mars in resonance with your natal Venus. Finally, from those particular years, search for days with the Moon in Fire or Air signs. Let us know which birthdates work best.

I've found only two birthdates in a 40 year scan which work best for me: 8/17/87 and 8/3/92. I narrowed times by selecting resonant rising signs+degrees. You can play with possibilities that result in favorable 5th, 7th, 8th House patterns.

Your next challenge is to find willing and available prospective romantic partners born on your target dates. I've actually placed this info in my dating profiles. Try OKCupid and Mingle2. Happy hunting!

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comdoc
Knowflake

Posts: 446
From: Tucson
Registered: Feb 2015

posted May 30, 2016 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for comdoc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
More factors. In my book on relationships, I use prenatal and postnatal Eclipse dates astrology and numerology to further refine potential compatibility. Simply find your nearest prenatal and postnatal Solar and Lunar eclipses dates. Same for prospective partner birthdates.

Then total day+month+year for each eclipse, and reduce to a single digit. Eclipses table here: https://cafeastrology.com/eclipsessolarlunar.html

Scan nodal axis signs for connections to your ASC/DESC, personal planets and points.

https://cafeastrology.com/northnodetables.html

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Gemini Blues
Knowflake

Posts: 1123
From: The future... or the past. I get them confused...
Registered: May 2014

posted May 30, 2016 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gemini Blues     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lotis White:
The problem here is that you're focusing on only having specific aspects in synastry, and not on the natal symbolism of your 5th, 7th, and 8th houses, or the secondary 7th house.

Just because you have double whammy Sun/Moon with somebody doesn't not mean you'll actually fall in love. You could find the women with the perfect birthdate only to have her not be interested because you're not her type... A person's type is shown by their 5th, 7th, and 8th houses, as well as the gender planets. If you don't match the symbolism of these houses in her chart to some extent, while she might like you due to synastry aspects, you may not actually fall for you.


Good point. The short answer is that I have no way of controlling for birth time. If this thought experiment ever became a real experiment, I would need to meet a number of ladies from the correct birth date to find one with a suitable birth time.

Ms. Theoretical, with her 2 pm TOB, is a Scorpio Asc (as am I). Her DC is Taurus, ruled by Venus (as is my 7th and 8th). Her Venus is conjunct my Venus (and NN) in Cancer in her 8th, my 9th.

Her 8th house cusp is Gemini, her Mercury in Leo, conjunct my MC. and for further reinforcement, note the Sun-Moon DW is in Leo and Gemini, 10th-8th houses for me, 9th-8th for her. My Mercury in her 7th, but close to her 8th house cusp.

The 5th? Not much either do for it but see below...


quote:
Originally posted by Lotis White:

...

How you check this is by noting if your partner meets any of the following criteria...

*The partner overlays planets in these (5th, 7th, and 8th) houses.


If I were stranded on a desert island with a woman, two of the three most likely signs to decide that they would rather see how far they could swim before they drown rather than paring up with me would be Pisces and Taurus. (The third is Libra, ruled also by Venus, and on the cusp of my empty 12th) Even personal planets seem to be enough to drive them away. This is one of the main reasons I have trouble with the whole 5th 7th 8th theory. It doesn't work for me. Even with Jupiter and Mars in the 7th, in Taurus, I'm lucky if I can get a Taurus woman to answer a direct question with an answer longer than one word.

And the 5th?

My only 5th house placement is Chiron in Pisces. It is trine Neptune Rx in Scorpio. I should write a book some day about being the wounded healer in the house of fun and sex and romance, but that day is not today. Today is about finding a life partner, not about healing yet another woman so she can go live happily ever after with someone else!

It's not easy being an 8th house Sun...

quote:
Originally posted by Lotis White:

*The partner has planets in the same sign as the rulers of these houses.E.g. Dsc ruler in Virgo and the partner having Virgo planets.


Closer. This would be Neptune in Scorpio and Venus in Cancer for me.

quote:
Originally posted by Lotis White:

*The partner has planets in a sign ruled by a planet in one of these three houses. E.g. You have Mars in the 5th house and she has Aries planets.

Mars and Jupiter in 7th, Mercury and Sun in 8th. Gemini and Leo.

quote:
Originally posted by Lotis White:

*The partner has planets in her chart strongly apsecting your 5th, 7th, and 8th house rulers. Aspects like this give you chemistry with another.

Aspects to Venus are big for me, as are Moon and Mercury. None of this explains how important Moon aspects are to me however. my "big three" tend to be Capricorn, Cancer, and Leo. I can only explain Leo and Capricorn by my 10th house Leo Moon and my 3rd house SN in Cap.

I've also not brought up my AntiVertex in this discussion. Sitting in my second house in Sag, any placement there completes a mutable cross opp Mercury and square Saturn (4th Pisces) and Uranus (10th, Virgo). If Ms Theoretical were to have an alternative Asc to the Scorpio Rising at 2pm, putting it here (Asc conjunct aVx) would be a good bet...

quote:
Originally posted by Lotis White:

...

Also, if you post your chart a few of us may give you some tips as to what to look out for.


TinyPic seems to be broken. They banned my IP for some unknown reason, and when I contact tech support, they tell me to create an account with their paid service. Anyone have other suggestions?

Finally, thank you for your in depth answer! And thanks to the others posting here as well. I'm going to get to replying as soon. as I can!

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comdoc
Knowflake

Posts: 446
From: Tucson
Registered: Feb 2015

posted May 30, 2016 05:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for comdoc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
GB wrote: TinyPic seems to be broken. They banned my IP for some unknown reason, and when I contact tech support, they tell me to create an account with their paid service. Anyone have other suggestions?
http://postimg.org/

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Lotis White
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Posts: 2204
From: USA
Registered: Dec 2010

posted May 30, 2016 07:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lotis White     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gemini Blues:
Aspects to Venus are big for me, as are Moon and Mercury. None of this explains how important Moon aspects are to me however. my "big three" tend to be Capricorn, Cancer, and Leo. I can only explain Leo and Capricorn by my 10th house Leo Moon and my 3rd house SN in Cap.

I've also not brought up my AntiVertex in this discussion. Sitting in my second house in Sag, any placement there completes a mutable cross opp Mercury and square Saturn (4th Pisces) and Uranus (10th, Virgo). If Ms Theoretical were to have an alternative Asc to the Scorpio Rising at 2pm, putting it here (Asc conjunct aVx) would be a good bet...


You say you don't think the 5th, 7th, and 8th house attraction pattern works for you, only based on what you've written I think it does.

Aspects to Venus are big because Venus is your Dsc ruler. And Moon rules Venus for you, so that explains the significance of the Moon. Mercury is in your 8th house, and explains that. And it has to be said that since Venus, Moon, and Mercury are personal planets, most of us would like to see them all aspected in synastry.

The signs we actually have on the cusp, are not the be all and end all, we also look at sign of the rulers, the house of the rulers, and aspects to the rulers. Plus planets in the 5th, 7th, and 8th houses. Also, sometimes the ruler of the house ruler can shed some light if it's part of a bigger pattern in the natal chart. I think this is the case with you. Depending on the structure of the natal chart as a whole, people respond to different parts of their 5th, 7th, and 8th house pattern. You respond to the parts of your attraction pattern that also resonate with other parts of your chart.

I think I remember discussing your chart... Moon in Leo rules your 7th house ruler Venus in Cancer (Cancer and Leo). And I think there was a Saturn aspects to either Venus or Moon (Capricorn). Moon ruling Venus is in the 10th house (Capricorn).

I'll elaborate on this with a post of mine from a different thread...

quote:
Originally posted by Lotis White:
This is a curious thing I’ve noticed occasionally. Sometimes, every now and then, I have seen the ruler of the 7th house ruler say some important things about the partner that is chosen. Yes, it’s true that the Dsc and it’s ruler are usually what’s most important. However, there are still those cases when the ruler of the 7th house ruler is shows up in the partner‘s chart quite obviously, and this makes sense when you think about it. Because the qualities of the planet ruling the 7th house ruler can filter through, impacting our 7th house attraction pattern.

I’ll give an example,

A few years ago there was a poster on LL (I think he name was Lechien) and she would occasionally ask questions about her and her partner. Some of which I remember responding to. She had a Gemini Dsc ruled by Mercury in Capricorn. Her Mercury in Cap was again ruled by Saturn in Virgo. When she posted her partner’s chart, he had a Cap rising which matched to her Dsc ruler sure enough. But he also has a massive stellium in Virgo… I think Sun, Moon, Mercury and Venus (anyway, I just remember a lot of Virgo in is chart). The only thing this could have come form was Saturn in Virgo ruling her Dsc ruler Mercury in Cap. The point is that I’ve seen this scenario before, and so it can happen.


I'll further say, that I've also seen cases where a strong aspect to the 7th house ruler indicated the partner's Sun sign. One lady had Saturn square her 7th house ruler, and she married a Cap (the sign Capricorn was not tied her 7th house except for this strong Saturn aspect to her 7th house ruler).

For your chart I'd analyse the pattern as follows...

Dsc ruler in Cancer is why you love Cancers.

The Saturn aspect(I think it's to Venus the Dsc ruler), and Moon in the 10th (ruling the Dsc ruler) is why you love Capricorns.

Sun in the 8th, and Moon in Leo (ruling the Dsc ruler) is why you love Leos. And yeah, Mercury also in the 8th adds Gemini.

With the 5th house Pisces is on the cusp, and Pisces is co-ruled by Jupiter and Neptune, so that would add Scorpio and ????.

Also, with Venus and Moon being gender attraction planets for a male, this heightens the influence of the Cancer/Leo/Cap part of the pattern. Cancer Venus, Leo Moon, Moon in 10th house and a Saturn aspect to Venus (or is it Moon?).

And we look at more then just he partner's Sun sign but also the whole of their chart. Their personal planets in relations to your attraction pattern. You may have attracted a lot of Cancer, Leo, and Capricorn Suns, but were there themes concerning the rest of their natal charts that can be analyzed?

And the Vertex Axis is important. Planets apsecting your Vertex Axis, or Aspecting the rulers of the Vertex or Antivertex, give a sense of meaning to the relationship. Like it feels eerily fated and important.

If you use photobucket you can post your chart that way. A picture is a thousand words.

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Gemini Blues
Knowflake

Posts: 1123
From: The future... or the past. I get them confused...
Registered: May 2014

posted May 30, 2016 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gemini Blues     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll try out photobucket later tonight, but quick answers...

Jupiter (and Mars) in Taurus 7th.

If Neptune and Jupiter are corulers of Pisces, they are in tight opposition (1°) and both square for the T-square to (wait for it...) my Leo Moon.

Saturn trine Venus and my Asc for the grand trine, though the asc-saturn aspect is a little wide (5°)

Mercury (the focus if it's own T square with Saturn and Uranus) is conjunct the Vertex and the final depositor.

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Lotis White
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Posts: 2204
From: USA
Registered: Dec 2010

posted May 30, 2016 09:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lotis White     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gemini Blues:
I'll try out photobucket later tonight, but quick answers...

Jupiter (and Mars) in Taurus 7th.

If Neptune and Jupiter are corulers of Pisces, they are in tight opposition (1°) and both square for the T-square to (wait for it...) my Leo Moon.

Saturn trine Venus and my Asc for the grand trine, though the asc-saturn aspect is a little wide (5°)

Mercury (the focus if it's own T square with Saturn and Uranus) is conjunct the Vertex and the final depositor.


Oh yes. Aspect patterns involving planets in the relationship houses, and planets ruling the relationship houses are totally important.

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