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Author Topic:   Is there manipulation here? Or have I finally discovered my crazy Scorpio side?
Tryptamine
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posted September 16, 2016 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tryptamine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So basically, we met online.. it's long distance. She lives in another country. I've flown to her and it's been amazing. However, she wants to come live with me. My country is desirable, I guess and it's messing with my head a little. She knows my weaknesses also, and makes little "jabs" or "hints" that are kind of negative, like disguised insults. Some of which are quite.. personal, which I wouldn't do to anyone on purpose, but I'm wondering if it's deliberate or socially retarded sometimes. I can't tell anymore. I do have a tendency to analyse every sentence after all, and I don't think people notice that...

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calliope23
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posted September 16, 2016 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for calliope23     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't speak for the synastry as I don't know how to interpret overlays well enough to be confident in a response to it. HOWEVER, as far as her hurtful words go her natal is pretty telling. Her Merc is in Scorpio and her Mars is riiiiight there on her ASC in Sag. Sag is already a foot in mouth sign, and Mars in the first house is literally the epitome of doing/saying without thinking. I also have Mars right on my ASC, and I find that I always rush into communicating how I feel or just giving a response in general, but I always wish I had taken then time to sit back and truly think about how I should have crafted my words. And then of course you add Mars in Sag, with Sag never understanding how they could hurt someone with what they say....well it would seem to be she's just trying to be smart with you as a way to flirt, and not realizing it's actually hurtful. As far as Merc in Scorpio, she does know how to sting with what she says because she's strategic, but I think because the placement makes her so observant what she is trying to do is win you over by shocking you with her intellectual insight to make you think of her as more mysterious and incisive. Add that to barreling forward with the Sag "what I say isn't hurtful, how could it be" and then trying to impress you with this keen Scorpionic insight...therein lies your answer as to what she intends with the jabs. I don't think it's intended to hurt, but rather to make you view her as super wise and someone who totally understands you.

Astrology aside, if she's trying to coax you into agreeing to her moving out there to be with you and you're not as into it as she is, then she's definitely unfairly trying to make you feel trapped psychologically with that hurtful stuff and preying on your weaknesses as a means to an end. So I would run as far away as possible ASAP if that's the case.

Btw, your Moon in Gem 8H also makes you super susceptible to taking what others say really personally or offensively. You need for communication to be your safe place, and in the 8H typically ruled by Scorp you get that undertone of having words/communication being very sacred. She's basically encroaching on your personal comfort and aggravating your vulnerable spot with her brash, albeit probably not totally intentional, "jabs."

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Tryptamine
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posted September 16, 2016 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tryptamine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by calliope23:
Sag is already a foot in mouth sign, and Mars in the first house is literally the epitome of doing/saying without thinking.

I'd be more okay with this being the case- it's not really the words themselves that insult me, it's more of the principle. That's why I wonder about the reasoning, it's all about intention with me.

quote:
Originally posted by calliope23:
I don't think it's intended to hurt, but rather to make you view her as super wise and someone who totally understands you.

I feel like she's doing the opposite though. I feel less understood when it happens, and I don't know if she does it to try to help me "lighten up" and take things less seriously, or if she's trying to 'shame' me to make me try harder - I was essentially in a dark place when we first started talking and she has helped me (maybe not even intentionally, or in a deliberate method) to get out of that funk and start my life over again, but I already know what needs to be done... I'm aware of the reality and have already started doing it, I just lacked motivation before, and so it feels a little patronising and unnecessary sometimes. I have a new job. I'm looking for a new place to live atm, etc...
Another annoying thing she does is complain about her ex all the time, she complains about how lazy he was and I could bring up so many parallels that I'm sometimes not sure whether it's genuine or she's just bringing up concerns without being direct with me. But she wouldn't call me lazy directly, and she does say I had reasons for what was my situation.

quote:
Originally posted by calliope23:
Astrology aside, if she's trying to coax you into agreeing to her moving out there to be with you and you're not as into it as she is, then she's definitely unfairly trying to make you feel trapped psychologically with that hurtful stuff and preying on your weaknesses as a means to an end. So I would run as far away as possible ASAP if that's the case.

That's the thing though, I *really* care about her. So, I don't know if what I'm doing is crazy-good or crazy-bad. I like the sound of it and I'm aware of all the pitfalls but right now it's the thing that's motivating me the most. But the nagging feeling in the back of my head sometimes pops up and I don't know if it's just insecurity or paranoia from being depressed for so long. I'm not usually like this in relationships at all. So I don't know whether to take it seriously or not.

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llewsacm
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posted September 16, 2016 10:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for llewsacm     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi...she has Venus square Saturn in her natal so she probably feels very insecure when it comes to love, unless she's worked thru some of that (doesn't sound like it tho). She's Insecure to a certain extent and that's why she pulls out these jabs every now and again. It's a defense mechanism for her. I would bet that if she came to live with you, you would learn a different side to her...perhaps see the vulnerability she hides so well now. Sounds to me like she's trying to see how strong you are and if you can manage being with someone like her.

That aside, if you yourself are well grounded and can see that her comments have nothing to do with you, that it is related to her own insecurities, and you are willing to help her work thru that, great. I mean, she can always move to your country and get her own place, and then if all goes well between you, move forward....you know?

I do love Jamaica btw. 😊 beautiful!

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Selenite
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posted September 16, 2016 10:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Selenite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I personally don't think you should rely on astrology to tell whether she's manipulating you. Know yourself well enough to realize when you're being insecure or when someone is really trying to hurt you. I say this having been in an abusive relationship that left me paranoid for months after I got out and into a great relationship. But my problem was that I was scarred from abuse so I internalized many of his genuine attempts to communicate with me and give me advice as criticisms, power plays, and veiled insults. I really thought he was messing with me all the time, like it was this big joke and he was just manipulating me while laughing at me on the inside. And I kept this all inside so each time I took something the wrong way, it became that much more painful. I was really afraid to actually let myself express my concerns or needs, so there was zero trust on my part, and I was guarded for a while, when there was absolutely no abuse on his part.
I'm not saying your situation is the same of course but basically you need to really take a step back and check your own emotions, and see your girlfriend's actions and words for what they are. My guess is that she probably doesn't even know you feel this way, and she's just gonna keep doing it because that's how she is! Not because she thinks your weak, or whatever, but because she cares about you and she's trying. But I don't know, only you know.

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calliope23
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posted September 16, 2016 11:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for calliope23     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tryptamine:
That's the thing though, I *really* care about her. So, I don't know if what I'm doing is crazy-good or crazy-bad. I like the sound of it and I'm aware of all the pitfalls but right now it's the thing that's motivating me the most. But the nagging feeling in the back of my head sometimes pops up and I don't know if it's just insecurity or paranoia from being depressed for so long. I'm not usually like this in relationships at all. So I don't know whether to take it seriously or not.

I think you have your answer right here. And I agree with above poster, this is not about using astrology to figure out her motives. This seems a much more deep-seated issue about manipulation and not being a good fit. I could go on and on about the psychology of everything you've just written and write you a 20 page response, but I truly think (without knowing you or the situation well at all) that you're responding in a way that any friend, relative, or therapist would tell you is absolutely not healthy and not auspicious for this relationship. I think it's great she has triggered a spark in you for romance and living for yourself again, but perhaps that's the lesson you needed from her at this moment in time, and now it's time to remember you care for yourself and your future and to gracefully bow out of being in contact with her so you can find the person who is perfect for you (my favorite thing to remind myself of is that certain people enter our lives when we need them, and when it seems time for them to exit we have to let them go and appreciate what knowledge they brought to us and why the universe needed us to meet them).

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Tryptamine
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posted September 17, 2016 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tryptamine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What I've been told here is pretty much what everyone has told me. Maybe I am stupid after all. I'll talk to her gently tonight and see where it goes, I think.

I'll be honest, if it's deliberate it's pretty screwed up and I'd like to know what she says. Part of me wishes that someone wouldn't be like this, but I know it's possible...

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Tryptamine
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posted September 17, 2016 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tryptamine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm retarded. I think all I managed to do was embarrass myself, I feel I'm being so paranoid! She probably thinks the same, but she was sweet about it. Oh god, what is she doing to me? I feel like an idiot, lol.

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florence
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posted September 17, 2016 08:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for florence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not very practised in synastry but I'm familiar from personal experience with some of these aspects:

Your moon opp her Mars : passionate and Mars intrigues moon emotions, stirs them up and can be hurtful without meaning to be. As moon ive felt vulnerable, like there's no barriers from my emotional core to Mars.

This is almost case closed Imo so look up moon Mars synastry.

ETA I met the Mars opp my moon after I'd been in a dark place so reading that it almost makes me think these relationships come along, are needed or noticed to kickstart motivation, get some personal planetary activity going again and life-force for the next cycle. Just when everything seems dark and too outer-planet themed.

Also your Mercury on her Lilith - I think that could be part of the suspicion. Maybe giving voice to some of your fears but might be you projecting them. Esp reading that she might be lightening you up, you were in a dark place and you mention shame. They all sound like they're related to Lilith to me.

Vertex / sn is probably lending powerful feelings to it all.

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Tryptamine
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posted September 18, 2016 07:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tryptamine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by florence:
I'm not very practised in synastry but I'm familiar from personal experience with some of these aspects:

Your moon opp her Mars : passionate and Mars intrigues moon emotions, stirs them up and can be hurtful without meaning to be. As moon ive felt vulnerable, like there's no barriers from my emotional core to Mars.

This is almost case closed Imo so look up moon Mars synastry.

ETA I met the Mars opp my moon after I'd been in a dark place so reading that it almost makes me think these relationships come along, are needed or noticed to kickstart motivation, get some personal planetary activity going again and life-force for the next cycle. Just when everything seems dark and too outer-planet themed.

Also your Mercury on her Lilith - I think that could be part of the suspicion. Maybe giving voice to some of your fears but might be you projecting them. Esp reading that she might be lightening you up, you were in a dark place and you mention shame. They all sound like they're related to Lilith to me.

Vertex / sn is probably lending powerful feelings to it all.


Thanks, I'm definitely over-reacting. I guess I have some new insecurities that I'm not used to or was unaware of until now. Either way, I'm just going to have to deal with it without being irrational.

Do you know more about the vertex/south node conjunction?

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Lucia23
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posted September 18, 2016 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think you're actually overreacting---I think your intuition is telling you that she's looking for a ticket (metaphorical as well as literal) out of her situation and into yours. That doesn't mean she doesn't ALSO care about you on some level, but please don't doubt your intuition and please protect yourself. The situation itself is full of big red flags.

The negative jabs and hints though---she's VERY Saggie, and Sagittariuses can be too-candid and not careful about protecting your feelings when they talk to you. Sometimes they cross lines other signs wouldn't cross, like bringing up an area of personal weakness or vulnerability of yours that you're especially sensitive or self-conscious about. That in itself doesn't mean she's being deliberately manipulative or hurtful--that's just Saggie.

One way to protect yourself is to never give her any money ever, or spend money on her (other than the kind of money you'd spend on a girl who lived next door to you and got paid more than you--yes to a dinner out or a birthday gift, NO to any travel expenses or living expenses). You can suggest that she make a couple of visits to you in your country before you two discuss living together. i would move VERY slowly with her and make sure that if she needs funds or practical/financial help to visit you or to move to be with you, she finds another source of that money.

Is her birthtime right? If so, Sun-Pluto in her 12h in Saggie could be manipulative about moving to other lands. (If it's an estimated birthtime, this is less of a red flag.). In the synastry, your Venus-Moon conjunction is very nice.....and that Venus-Pluto CAN be nice, in terms of a lot of heavy-duty sexual attraction and chemistry, but it can also play out in a manipulative way, with Pluto's control issues and tendencies awakened, Venus using her feminine wiles (even when Venus is the guy! sometimes that conjunction can play out as the Venus being coquettish and "sweet" and knowingly using the Pluto's intense attraction against him/her)....her Mars on your Eros and your 2nd/8th axis would make her very persuasive to you about spending your money (2nd/8th) to get her self (h1) abroad (Sag Mars.).

I saw a documentary---I wish I remembered the name of it--that I keep thinking about that makes me want to urge you to be cautious about the long distance thing. It was about Eastern European women meeting men in the United States online.

I would just make it an airtight immovable boundary--if she wants to be with you, she foots her own bill. Until you two are a few YEARS into an in-person, not-long-distance relationship. If you've been depressed, it's easy to be vulnerable in the early stages of a relationship, when it's all about attraction and limerance and fantasy is inevitable, because what's really between you two on a daily basis (when things get hard or boring, and the initial sexual attraction is less novel) is completely unknown.

Complaining about her ex's laziness strikes me as a big red flag too---like she's covertly saying to you, "Be a MAN by making things happen and not being lazy." It's all okay if she's not looking for any financial support from you, or help getting documents to relocate, or anything like that. If she is, you're probably better off without the relationship.

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Tryptamine
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posted September 18, 2016 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tryptamine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia23:

One way to protect yourself is to never give her any money ever, or spend money on her (other than the kind of money you'd spend on a girl who lived next door to you and got paid more than you--yes to a dinner out or a birthday gift, NO to any travel expenses or living expenses). You can suggest that she make a couple of visits to you in your country before you two discuss living together. i would move VERY slowly with her and make sure that if she needs funds or practical/financial help to visit you or to move to be with you, she finds another source of that money.

Is her birthtime right? If so, Sun-Pluto in her 12h in Saggie could be manipulative about moving to other lands. (If it's an estimated birthtime, this is less of a red flag.). In the synastry, your Venus-Moon conjunction is very nice.....and that Venus-Pluto CAN be nice, in terms of a lot of heavy-duty sexual attraction and chemistry, but it can also play out in a manipulative way, with Pluto's control issues and tendencies awakened, Venus using her feminine wiles (even when Venus is the guy! sometimes that conjunction can play out as the Venus being coquettish and "sweet" and knowingly using the Pluto's intense attraction against him/her)....her Mars on your Eros and your 2nd/8th axis would make her very persuasive to you about spending your money (2nd/8th) to get her self (h1) abroad (Sag Mars.).

I saw a documentary---I wish I remembered the name of it--that I keep thinking about that makes me want to urge you to be cautious about the long distance thing. It was about Eastern European women meeting men in the United States online.

I would just make it an airtight immovable boundary--if she wants to be with you, she foots her own bill. Until you two are a few YEARS into an in-person, not-long-distance relationship. If you've been depressed, it's easy to be vulnerable in the early stages of a relationship, when it's all about attraction and limerance and fantasy is inevitable, because what's really between you two on a daily basis (when things get hard or boring, and the initial sexual attraction is less novel) is completely unknown.

Complaining about her ex's laziness strikes me as a big red flag too---like she's covertly saying to you, "Be a MAN by making things happen and not being lazy." It's all okay if she's not looking for any financial support from you, or help getting documents to relocate, or anything like that. If she is, you're probably better off without the relationship.


Her birth-time is estimated. I live in the UK, so she doesn't really need documents to travel here, she could move and work here by herself if she wanted to. We're splitting everything, and we've always done that, in fact she complains when I've spent money on her. We split basically everything. She's paying for herself to get here and we're splitting rent, so I'm gaining from this too actually.

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hearttreasure
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posted September 18, 2016 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hearttreasure     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scorpio mercury in any of sun sign tend to make "jabs" or "hints" like insults. If you can not take it, leave it. If you can take it, understand that it is their nature.

I've met and dealt with scorpio mercury and it conjunct her pluto. She manipulates her boyfriend to get money and her boyfriend doesn't know he gets manipulated because he thinks she is honest with her tragic sad story and that she will pay him back each months (which I think it is her strategy). When they broke up, she keeps the money and never return it. Her boyfriend still feels "dumb". This is the worst case dealing with strategic and manipulative scorpio mercury.

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Tryptamine
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posted September 18, 2016 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tryptamine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia23:

I saw a documentary---I wish I remembered the name of it--that I keep thinking about that makes me want to urge you to be cautious about the long distance thing. It was about Eastern European women meeting men in the United States online.

Can I just add that she isn't a mail-order or anything like that... we met playing a video-game lol.

quote:
Originally posted by hearttreasure:
Scorpio mercury in any of sun sign tend to make "jabs" or "hints" like insults. If you can not take it, leave it. If you can take it, understand that it is their nature.

I can take jokes, I just wanted to know her reasoning. That's what makes me wonder sometimes, but I think it's just her sense of humour; her father is like that, making fun of everyone.

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Lucia23
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posted September 18, 2016 01:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lol, good! I imagined you meeting on a dating site (not mail order), and that you live in beautiful Jamaica, where she could easily visit as a tourist but not legally live/work!!

Fewer red flags now. As long as she has a job already lined up in the UK and is splitting all rent/living expenses, and paying all of her own travel expenses, and it's not like she could be using you for a place to stay/funding for her relocation....

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Tryptamine
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posted September 18, 2016 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tryptamine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia23:
Fewer red flags now. As long as she has a job already lined up in the UK and is splitting all rent/living expenses, and paying all of her own travel expenses, and it's not like she could be using you for a place to stay/funding for her relocation....

I still wonder sometimes, but to be serious, we've been speaking for a long while now. When we first started talking, I was staying with family after I dropped out of my studies because of depression. I wasn't working either, so for her to pick me solely because of financial reasons would be strange... I guess.
In fact, the place we're looking at now has a slightly expensive deposit and I haven't even gotten my first paycheck at my new job yet so she said she would pay for most of it, and I would pay her back once I've been paid.
She doesn't have a job lined up at the moment but she just finished her studies but has money saved up to support herself for the short-term while she looks and like I said before, we're splitting the rent and buying stuff for the place together. She did say that she always wanted to come work in the UK though, and that she would be too afraid to do it without me.

Here is where it gets weird though, technically we are not a "couple", and I think this is what's messing with me. We are "friends with benefits, but also exclusivity" which is kinda weird to read and bothers me kind of. But a long-distance relationship wasn't something I would have even considered with anyone else really, when we first started speaking I didn't even consider the thought of a relationship at the time because I felt I wasn't in the right place for one at the time, but it's like she's done something to my brain and I can't resist, she's said similar things actually, the distance is part of what's holding us back but we've both said all of our principles have been basically thrown out of the window. Also she has hang-ups about past relationships and the name/term scares her but it doesn't make any practical or effective difference and this is what I don't really understand.

She seems really serious about relationships though and I'm willing to back off a bit because I think she's just a lil crazy in that area and needs to calm down a bit and know I'm not going to be a ****** person in the long-term. I guess what I'm scared of is her getting everything she needs to be set up here and just going off on her own.

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