posted June 21, 2019 04:37 PM            

I have known this person for close to ten years through common friends, and have never felt romantically with regards to them. I think there may have been an immediate interest on his part right off the bat. They then following a couple of years of on and off communication told me that their interest was indeed romantic and they were exasperated that I was not responsive to them. I didn't respond positively to this, and I was -perhaps also a bit immaturely- quite stern with his entitlement for attention. As a result I broke contact.

In the following years I heard from common acquaintances that he said he had been in love with me for a time. Last year, we started spending time together through a common friend he worked with in group settings. When he made it known again that he might be interested in a romantic way, I decided to be very open with to him. I tried to be very kind and clear and had a talk: I told him romance had never been the case with me, that I did not think it would ever be, that I want no miscommunication about this and I'd rather be friends. He jokingly said he wouldn't be able to see me as his sister immediately, but that he was fine with being friends.

Sorry for this boring soap opera backstory - but at this point it doesn't feel like anything I said to him over the years about any romantic feelings or involvement really sticks. He is never super disrespectful of boundaries when I see him or talk to him now, but occasionally he'll say something quite heavy and confessional, leaving me uncomfortable because I already told him about my feelings and the boundaries I prefer. These outbursts leave me in a tough spot.

I feel more comfortable being black and white about things like this - I believe in honesty and hoped this could be turned into a completely platonic friendship. I know being liked and idealized feels nice, and I'm appreciative of it in theory, but it feels like a burden. This is otherwise a lovely, sensitive and thoughtful person - I do not think he does or says anything out of malice. I know he's quite popular and would be attractive for a lot of people - why not just let this go? Is it something about his natal?

Because he knows I'm interested in astrology and I was looking at another friend's chart, he insisted a while ago that I look at his. I briefly said some relatively generic things about his natal, but now that I have the data anyway, I would like to show you the synastry and composite with both our natal charts - what is it that contributes to this mild "not taking no for an answer"? Or "my saying no not changing the way he feels and quietly expects things to fall into place"? Because it's not a social, or behavioral sort of insistence on his part, it's more an emotional one.

At this point I really do think I should maybe cut off all social contact and perhaps avoid some of the social groups I so enjoy in order not to prolong this blind and quiet pursuit. I like him as a person but quite honestly, I see his continued interest in me as a hindrance, I think he idealizes me way too much, and I'm somewhat exasperated. I'm sure someone else would be much better with this kind of direct/indirect attention - I'm really not. But astrologically, please take a look and tell me, is there something obsessive here? Is there anything that indicates my near indifference (other than very friendly and joyous chat and some common interests) and his seemingly total conviction that "I should be the one"?

What do you see? I'm the Libra.

Guess away, at this point nothing will be too outrageous. I respect his feelings, but the situation is quite ridiculous as it stands. We could have fun about this.

posted June 22, 2019 11:34 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Randall:
Bump!

---

posted June 22, 2019 05:43 PM            

He is very much so crossing boundaries with anything that makes you uncomfortable. Don't let society's conditioning make for doubting yourself. Based on your description, earlier on he would also not have had any kind of an actual image of you enough to base anything but a projection on you, nothing real "loved" instead of whatever he projected onto you, whatever preferences of his you happened to fit. All of it sounds very skeevy.

You are not the one who should avoid social contacts you enjoy. He should not keep making you uncomfortable & respect whatever you said instead. Unless he can behave, he doesn't "deserve" rewarding by getting to have contact with you, and even if he outwardly behaved but still pined after you, well, still sounds a person not to reward with contact or access to you. You may respect his feelings but he doesn't seem to be respecting yours enough.

---

Astrologically, I'm not sure if I like his Sun square Saturn-Moon-Mars aspect merely based on your description. Your Moon loosely opposes the Moon-Mars & as if fills a T-square pattern between you, and the potential for obsessing seems a possibility. A Venus-Mars-Pluto T-square would seem a sexually fixated thing, e.g. It's his Sun squaring your Moon, you likely not feeling it as a comfortable thing if not interested in him otherwise with him pushing in a way whatever the case.

Saturn is his DC-ruler & Moon yours, the reverse, so maybe your Moon so closely opposite his Moon-Saturn feels like some "Meant to be" delusion to him. Your ASC-DC rulers Saturn & Moon oppose in your chart already as it is so you're probably used to whatever the opposition is on your part, but then you bring both ends of the angle to his ASC & DSC-ruler conjunction.

I imagine Todd may say something about the composite Mars/Pluto conjunct Saturn as a harsh thing, and the square to Moon-Jupiter probably no help. No idea if you've asked him or if he's going to pitch in later.

The composite Sun conjuncts his Neptune so perhaps that is an illusory factor for him.

Your Mars is in his 8th house so although I haven't looked at descriptions of that in ages, it is Pluto's house, so maybe obsessing is involved. Ah, it's square your Plutos, so very much so obsessing at worst.

Composite Moon at 9.55 Pisces also conjuncts his Sun & seems to "activate" his natal square or that T-square fixating, I guess? Not really analysing anything more so, just glancing at quick things that are present whatever the case.

Edit:

Having mentioned Nance McCullough's Love Formulas 2 book in another thread, have to also note that she talks about people with their Sun, Moon or ASCs in a square aspect as having:

- the desire to not bend or change
- the feeling that one is always right, regardless ("Don't bother me with facts, I have already made up my mind.")
- wanting to be accepted as is with no changes

posted June 22, 2019 11:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Keela Dal:
[B][/B]

---

Dear Keela Dal, thank you so much for your thoughtful comment. I appreciate your supportive and thoughtful take, it reflects a lot of what my close friends have said about this in the past few days. I really shouldn't have to be in any dynamic I don't feel comfortable in. When I think about it more, not taking rejection is a very subtle method of gaslighting - I cannot mediate someone else's experience with what is true and real.

You're also bang on about the traditional "she'll come around" romanticism as my close friend said the same thing -some bits almost word by word- tonight. I think little to no contact is best.

---

But astrologically, you're saying you're not seeing anything that's particularly Neptune-y or illusion-y or obsessive. I was hoping to get some clarity because I sometimes feel more like a sort of actor in someone else's strange suffocating ideal of what love and connection is, and I hoped to understand whether this is due to his own make up or something between the charts.

Perhaps him having some planets in my 12th contributes to recognizing him as a major interruption. I don't know.

I'm not even sure whether a composite even applies here, but since it's an ongoing dynamic for lack of a better word on and off for the past ten years, I guess composite might not be out of the question. Can a "dynamic" have its composite?

I'd especially love to hear what todd thinks and says!

posted June 23, 2019 03:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by HieronymusTush:
I really shouldn't have to be in any dynamic I don't feel comfortable in.

---

But astrologically, you're saying you're not seeing anything that's particularly Neptune-y or illusion-y or obsessive. I was hoping to get some clarity because I sometimes feel more like a sort of actor in someone else's strange suffocating ideal of what love and connection is, and I hoped to understand whether this is due to his own make up or something between the charts.

---

I didn't actually focus on Neptune specifically instead of things popping up otherwise at my quick glance. I didn't look at the composite analysis-wise more than noting the couple of hits to natal planets. Right now I'm wondering if he had Venus square Neptune or where their midpoint is in his chart & whatever similar, but have to leave such things for later or for someone else just now. I think my focus was more on what brings about fixating on you (or anything) on his part?

He does seem to have Neptune very near his DC if I'm reading the image right, for illusory ideas about partner sides? Not in his 7th but maybe it has an effect. And okay, if saw right, Venus/Neptune MP is around 13-14 Aquarius, no idea if touching anything overall.

Thank you for your words in kind, good if there was anything helpful in what I said. It's just that too many girls & women still aren't told that their feelings are valid and that they don't have to try to soothe over a guy's feelings if they don't have interest in him. His feelings not being hurt is not more important than her feelings being respected. I realize that sometimes you feel better for your own safety if you tread carefully, but this doesn't seem a case where you're in physical danger, e.g.

Have you run into M. Scott Peck's ideas about the difference between cathexis & love? The wiki seems a bit confusing but there was a link going around this past week with talk about learning the difference. I'm not sure if some of it applies to him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathexis

posted July 17, 2019 05:15 PM            

Yup - the thing that most resonated with me in all that you have gathered from the charts has been that this friend (for lack of a better word!) seems very prone to dreaming up his reality and being adamant at it. I think one of the fundamental reasons why his attention to me has become so abrasive overtime was the feeling was that I was supposedly very valued by him, yet my feelings about him or our dialogue did not count to much - he found a way to obstinately keep it in that 'unrequited love' atmosphere. This straight up matches with your self worth comment - my feelings do not matter because it is not about me, this is a quest for self worth! I guess I'll never really understand what he was doing for self worth by being incredibly flirtatious after agreeing to be friends as it was so counterintuitive. It just accomplished an erosion of respect and good feelings and nothing else.

In the meantime since I made this post (actually Keela Dal's advice really stuck with me, thanks again) I was encouraged to privately talk to one of our common friends, who is among his close friends. I assumed she knew of some of his feelings and I did not want to humiliate him, but I felt I would feel better if she knew how things seemed from my perspective. I also wondered if she would support me in drawing this boundary again, and perhaps also knock some sense into him. I pretty much gave her the rundown of my feelings -quite similar to my first post up there-. I was not expecting it at all when she told me she had known, that he constantly talked about his love for me. Apparently everyone knew and they had been trying to tell him for months that I really did not seem interested and was only friendly, and that he seemed to be suffocating me. She also said he talked about me non-stop, and that she often told him that being so caught up on this was not a very good idea at all. Anyway, this was all somewhat embarrassing to me but I felt better knowing everyone understood the dynamics here.

Apparently this common friend relayed my feelings to him once more, and after that I sort of stopped speaking to him. Funny thing is, the day after our common friend told me she did repeat my discomfort to him, I ran straight into this guy with my boyfriend on the street! It was so unexpected. It was a very tense few minutes of superficial chatting, and I have not heard from him again.

I really liked him as a person, and I occasionally get mad that he so obstinately pushed me into this corner of being someone so idealized and romanticized instead of a real friend.

Anyway, I never got some grand obsessive feeling from these charts - thanks for your perspective on it. I did not know that Uranus opposing someone's Venus could translate into Uranus not feeling much for the Venus.

I wonder if todd would see something we're all missing, some grand malignant misunderstanding & frustration aspect! It has dragged on with such quiet drama for months!

posted July 17, 2019 05:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by HieronymusTush:
Thank you again Keela Dal for your reading & insight!! I appreciated your encouragement. And hi Stoika7! I hope you're very very well.

Yup - the thing that most resonated with me in all that you have gathered from the charts has been that this friend (for lack of a better word!) seems very prone to dreaming up his reality and being adamant at it. I think one of the fundamental reasons why his attention to me has become so abrasive overtime was the feeling was that I was supposedly very valued by him, yet my feelings about him or our dialogue did not count to much - he found a way to obstinately keep it in that 'unrequited love' atmosphere. This straight up matches with your self worth comment - my feelings do not matter because it is not about me, this is a quest for self worth! I guess I'll never really understand what he was doing for self worth by being incredibly flirtatious after agreeing to be friends as it was so counterintuitive. It just accomplished an erosion of respect and good feelings and nothing else.

In the meantime since I made this post (actually Keela Dal's advice really stuck with me, thanks again) I was encouraged to privately talk to one of our common friends, who is among his close friends. I assumed she knew of some of his feelings and I did not want to humiliate him, but I felt I would feel better if she knew how things seemed from my perspective. I also wondered if she would support me in drawing this boundary again, and perhaps also knock some sense into him. I pretty much gave her the rundown of my feelings -quite similar to my first post up there-. I was not expecting it at all when she told me she had known, that he constantly talked about his love for me. Apparently everyone knew and they had been trying to tell him for months that I really did not seem interested and was only friendly, and that he seemed to be suffocating me. She also said he talked about me non-stop, and that she often told him that being so caught up on this was not a very good idea at all. Anyway, this was all somewhat embarrassing to me but I felt better knowing everyone understood the dynamics here.

Apparently this common friend relayed my feelings to him once more, and after that I sort of stopped speaking to him. Funny thing is, the day after our common friend told me she did repeat my discomfort to him, I ran straight into this guy with my boyfriend on the street! It was so unexpected. It was a very tense few minutes of superficial chatting, and I have not heard from him again.

I really liked him as a person, and I occasionally get mad that he so obstinately pushed me into this corner of being someone so idealized and romanticized instead of a real friend.

Anyway, I never got some grand obsessive feeling from these charts - thanks for your perspective on it. I did not know that Uranus opposing someone's Venus could translate into Uranus not feeling much for the Venus.

I wonder if todd would see something we're all missing, some grand malignant misunderstanding & frustration aspect! It has dragged on with such quiet drama for months!

---

Hi dearest! So good to hear from you :-)

Well... his Chiron (12) opposite Saturn/Moon/Mars is... terrible. Especially with Mars involved, since this is sign of a deep wound in "male" self-worth, so since it's also in 6th house, he needs constantly to prove himself he's worth and to be nurtured by others' good judgement. Then, his Pluto square your Mars probably makes him stubborn in his obsession to you... (and gets on your nerves) and, your Chiron is square to his Venus/Sun, while opposing his Saturn/Moon... so he's unavoidably powerfully/emotionally drawn to you, and his Moon and Neptune squares are all about denial, dreams, illusions... his natal Uranus is square to his Sun, so he's very independent in this dreamy state, i.e. he just doesnt listen to others and needs to see things his own way, until he gets hurt... when he gets hurt it is really bad and he might suffer for great depression, so that's why he might prefer to dream instead of facing an harsh reality... in fact, his natal Jupiter is square to Saturn/Moon... Unfortuntaley for him, your synastry SN/Sun and Chiron/Moon contact in his 12th suggest he has to learn to let go and to and to find his own self-worth through his highly independent soul and great intellectual/creative skills, in order to heal his emotional wound...

posted July 21, 2019 03:33 PM            

for those who follow my responses, Tush, your situation with this man exemplifies the difficulties with integrating the promise of the vertex into a relationship.

vertex axis is on the descendant axis, and square to the sun/Neptune conjunction and the venus/Uranus , mercury/Uranus and the mercury/juno midpoints.

the vertex is symbolic of "cosmic" energies that include not only the earth plane but the totality of higher planes the universe is subject to. as a consequence, though the vertex energizes a earthy nativity, much of the vertex's energies do not apply to our world. so the aspects top the vertex in a natal chart can be very dynamic but this does not meant these aspects will function in the composite as we would expect.

here with the group of midpoints and planets,we cab see the idealization of the relationship with the Neptune square. but Neptune is also capable of self delusion which seems to be affecting the man.the other midpoints show his total emotional fascination with Tush and the thought that Tush would be a perfect mate. as the vertex is on the asc/dsc axis,these images/ideas have taken him over.

but as I have emphasized, these planets and midpoints are being activated by the vertex and so he thinks that these feelings should lead to amazing and mutual hookup. but the vertex energies are not solely focused on the earth plane and the surfeit of vertex/cosmic energies in the composite are not focused on this mans earthly desires....

I think this is why he is totally lost in his attraction for Tush. he does not realize the energies he is subject to, will not necessarily affect Tush's feelings as they have affected him.

this composite is an excellent example of how the vertex energies, though very intense, do not always transform a relationship in ways we could expect that is reflective of the attraction and love generated by the symbols invovled.

todd

posted July 21, 2019 04:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by todd:
hi HieronymusTush

for those who follow my responses, Tush, your situation with this man exemplifies the difficulties with integrating the promise of the vertex into a relationship.

vertex axis is on the descendant axis, and square to the sun/Neptune conjunction and the venus/Uranus , mercury/Uranus and the mercury/juno midpoints.

the vertex is symbolic of "cosmic" energies that include not only the earth plane but the totality of higher planes the universe is subject to. as a consequence, though the vertex energizes a earthy nativity, much of the vertex's energies do not apply to our world. so the aspects top the vertex in a natal chart can be very dynamic but this does not meant these aspects will function in the composite as we would expect.

here with the group of midpoints and planets,we cab see the idealization of the relationship with the Neptune square. but Neptune is also capable of self delusion which seems to be affecting the man.the other midpoints show his total emotional fascination with Tush and the thought that Tush would be a perfect mate. as the vertex is on the asc/dsc axis,these images/ideas have taken him over.

but as I have emphasized, these planets and midpoints are being activated by the vertex and so he thinks that these feelings should lead to amazing and mutual hookup. but the vertex energies are not solely focused on the earth plane and the surfeit of vertex/cosmic energies in the composite are not focused on this mans earthly desires....

I think this is why he is totally lost in his attraction for Tush. he does not realize the energies he is subject to, will not necessarily affect Tush's feelings as they have affected him.

this composite is an excellent example of how the vertex energies, though very intense, do not always transform a relationship in ways we could expect that is reflective of the attraction and love generated by the symbols invovled.

todd

---

todd, thank you so much for the interesting point you have raised. just so I understand this correctly, what about this vertex situation that makes it one sided or determines that the delusion or insistance is on the man's side? is the vertex creating some sort of false promise?

posted July 26, 2019 04:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by HieronymusTush:
todd, thank you so much for the interesting point you have raised. just so I understand this correctly, what about this vertex situation that makes it one sided or determines that the delusion or insistance is on the man's side? is the vertex creating some sort of false promise?

---

"the vertex is symbolic of "cosmic" energies that include not only the earth plane but the totality of higher planes the universe is subject to. as a consequence, though the vertex energizes a earthy nativity, much of the vertex's energies do not apply to our world. so the aspects top the vertex in a natal chart can be very dynamic but this does not meant these aspects will function in the composite as we would expect."

a rough analogy is that we are mortal beings and the vertex is a immortal energy, so the vertex's total energy can not be manifest in our lives.