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T O P I C R E V I E WDancing MaenadI'm struggling with that. nordicsoulI would say "trust" is the key to let go... if you trust that whatever you are letting go is the best for you, then you can release more easily. Trust also help in knowing that is something is meant to stay it will stay or it will come back at the right moment. I have noticed with my own experience that once you released something that should be not in your life, then something better comes along... we just need to have faith and releaseElysiaThink of it as a new chapter..? Clean slate..Depends on what kind of thing you're renouncing, actually.. Would you mind telling us? Dancing MaenadI think that would work if it were something temporary or you'd hope of having it replaced in the future. What I was thinking about was renouncing the idea of having a family. And being resolute about staying alone for the rest of my life. Not an easy thought. AyeletWould you then surround yourself with other people? It is a tough decision. I haven't made such a decision myself, but I don't know if I'd ever raise a family of my own (in this incarnation ) I guess you have some really good, serious reason for deciding or even considering such a choice at this stage of your life. I hope it is not disappointment alone... Or perhaps I shouldn't hope so, because of course I wouldn't wish myself solitary life to anybody. But I guess that if you choose it, there are some advantages in this state for you.Regarding your question - if I needed to renounce something, and indeed I needed, I simply had to give up, to let go of a perfect idea or ideal that was in my mind, to surrender to life. Whatever happens happens, I'm o.k. with that. There are things which I cannot control, and I must live within the boundaries of fate, whether I dim myself responsible, at least partly, to that fate, or not. andstuff@DancingMaenadIf I may, do you really have to make such a decision? It's just that there is no way of knowing if the circumstances in your life might be right at some point, surely? You know there's only 'now', so now you don't have a family of your own, that's all that is certain. Ayelet quote:Originally posted by andstuff:@DancingMaenadIf I may, do you really have to make such a decision? It's just that there is no way of knowing if the circumstances in your life might be right at some point, surely? You know there's only 'now', so now you don't have a family of your own, that's all that is certain. I also asked myself what brought you to arrive at such a final conclusion..anonymidarknessRenouncing never works for me. Whatever I renounce keeps coming back, if not now, then after ages. I can quit anything cold turkey, but deep down somewhere the desire for it keeps lurking. In my experience, only a ripe fruit falls on the ground, rest leave scars behind which keep dragging me back.Dancing MaenadThank you for your replies. I don't consider this my decision, since a life of celibacy is not what I want at all. I am just not very optimistic about it and I get these very scary thoughts sometimes, that I will end up utterly alone. I know things *might* change, but they just as well might not. I've had opportunities, I had great transits or progressions and I am back where I started. Before I started this thread I was looking at my transits and progressions, which seem to indicate that a big love is coming my way, then I remembered I had others previously and nothing happened. Well, not what I wanted, in any case. And this might repeat this time too. There are lonely people out there, some by choice, some by circumstance. I don't know how to be okay with that, if I'm considering it would be permanent. I like my own company and my me-time, it's not that... But I always assumed one day I'd have another option, you know? I am just wondering if I should brace myself for that scenario. It's not something easy to accept. Dancing MaenadThat is very Scorpio rising of you, Nony. Good for you. AyeletI don't think you should decide something like that at any given time. There is always a chance to find great love. I guess you just don't want to be disappointed. You may be prepared for any scenario, but make sure you are also ready for your dream to come true.Lucia23Oh, DM, please don't be silly!! You are young, obviously a wonderful and accomplished person, and you want to be a mom and listen---with WELL over 50% of marriages ending in divorce and well over half (one statistic I read was more like 75%) of kids being raised in single-parent homes for at least part of their childhoods, a lot of people who had the dream of having an ideal family and thought they were making it come true have to give it up anyway.I met someone my age a few years ago. He had a wife and six-month-old child. They were both suddenly killed.I know biological motherhood is complicated for women. The society is set up so that our fertility ends just around the time it would be most convenient, life-stage-wise, to have a child. There are also lots of women who have fertility problems even when they're young.You could have a biological child as a single parent now, or adopt a child, and later meet the most wonderful partner to complete your family. You could meet a great partner nine years from now and adopt a child or children together. Or you could meet a partner who's a single parent, and you could actually be meant to be a mother to his child(ren.). You do NOT have to give up on the idea of having a beautiful family---the details might not be exactly your ideal, but the reality might be even better than your current ideal. Elysia quote:Originally posted by Lucia23:Oh, DM, please don't be silly!! You are young, obviously a wonderful and accomplished person, and you want to be a mom and listen---with WELL over 50% of marriages ending in divorce and well over half (one statistic I read was more like 75%) of kids being raised in single-parent homes for at least part of their childhoods, a lot of people who had the dream of having an ideal family and thought they were making it come true have to give it up anyway.I met someone my age a few years ago. He had a wife and six-month-old child. They were both suddenly killed.I know biological motherhood is complicated for women. The society is set up so that our fertility ends just around the time it would be most convenient, life-stage-wise, to have a child. There are also lots of women who have fertility problems even when they're young.You could have a biological child as a single parent now, or adopt a child, and later meet the most wonderful partner to complete your family. You could meet a great partner nine years from now and adopt a child or children together. Or you could meet a partner who's a single parent, and you could actually be meant to be a mother to his child(ren.). You do NOT have to give up on the idea of having a beautiful family---the details might not be exactly your ideal, but the reality might be even better than your current ideal. RandallYou're overthinking it. Dancing Maenad quote:Originally posted by Ayelet:I don't think you should decide something like that at any given time. There is always a chance to find great love. Yes, I suppose that is right. I've had great loves before. But great love that stays...? Dancing MaenadLucia, thank you for your kind and reassuring words. You are right, usually life doesn't happen the way we plan it, and sometimes that is for the better. I've been pretty low lately, and this sort of thinking is the main reason. I can't help feeling at some level that I'm just not worthy of it. I guess that's the main issue. My low self esteem in this respect. I was never good at attracting the men I wanted and, as experience proved, even worse at keeping them. I don't have faith in myself that I can attract a good man and often feel I need to settle for what I can find, which I have done often, anyways. Nobody can blame me for not giving chances to a broad spectrum of individuals. Anyways, this is a pretty rough topic for me. Suffice to say I attempted suicide when my first engagement ended. Granted, it was the final blow to a long line of smaller blows and I wasn't at my sanest at the time, but still, what I'm trying to say is that relationships have always been a priority in my life. And a never-ending source of heartache. And while I can be ok and thrive on my own, for some reason I'm feeling the pangs really bad this time. andstuffDMSorry if my suggestion comes uninvited, but have you ever tried applied kinesiology? I became a new person after 3 sessions or thereabouts. The method is somewhat marginal, but I personally can buy into the idea that everything leaves an imprint on our bodies, and our bodies later affect our outlook on life and our view of ourselves.The trick is to find a good specialist I guess, I'd say they should be able to tell you about things that happened to you by simply exploring your body, and it should roughly hit home (I had to ask my mother, because it happened way before I went to school). Not in detail, just some rough idea (at what age, what kind of strong emotions you experienced etc.). And I suppose they should have a decent background in classical western medicine as well. I pretty much used to convince myself there is nothing wrong with me, now my body knows it so it feels better. Ceridwen quote:Originally posted by andstuff:@DancingMaenadIf I may, do you really have to make such a decision? It's just that there is no way of knowing if the circumstances in your life might be right at some point, surely? You know there's only 'now', so now you don't have a family of your own, that's all that is certain. I second that. And especially the "Staying alone" part. Why would you decide something like that? You never know you might meet someone lovely tomorrow or next week. I`d rather you stay simply open to whatever opportunity comes your way without trying to force an issue, no matter into what direction.Dancing MaenadThank you for the suggestion, andstuff! I looked into it and it seems interesting. I already know what's wrong with me, but who knows, I might have missed some mayhem my subconscious swept under the cover. I'll try to find a specialist where I am. Dancing MaenadCeri.........I am open, I just don't believe anymore. Nevermind. Dancing MaenadNo, actually, I have something to say here. I know that starting a thread leaves the door open to all sorts of responses, however telling me that I shouldn't be feeling the way I do, that it's silly or that I am overthinking it - however well intended it may have been - is not helping!I asked a legitimate question. If you ever had to give up something of importance to you, how did you do it?That is what I want to know. NOT your opinions about how my life could change tomorrow or a few months from now. It could or it could not. You don't know, nobody does. Astrology is deceiving, so is Tarot, so are psychics. There's no accurate way to know. So stop acting like it's a given! It's not and you're not living in my shoes. You don't know how it feels. And it's disrespectful to downplay it. AyeletYou're right. I didn't mean to downplay how you feel when I wrote you what I did. It's just that you wrote it was hard for you to accept, the thought of staying alone. And I thought that perhaps you make a decision out of disappointment, and not out of considering what's best for you in the long run. It seems, all in all, no one is better equipped to know what's best for you other than yourself.I think perhaps it's very hard to depend your whole life on something you do not know would happen or not... and your decision to stay alone may have to do with the need to cope with a possible reality and find a source for happiness which does not rely on a partner. Elysia quote:Originally posted by Ayelet:I think perhaps it's very hard to depend your whole life on something you do not know would happen or not... and your desicion to stay alone may have to do with the need to cope with a possible reality and find a source for happiness which does not rely on a partner. Yeah..There can be different approaches, depending on what works for you. The "next best thing" approach -- Fine, you can't have plan A, but what about a plan B or C..? Are people with plan A even truly happy? The "substitute" approach -- For people going off of cigarettes, they have nicotine patches. Find your relationship patch. What exactly is it you're seeking? Can it find fulfillment elsewhere?The "distractions" approach -- What is equally absorbing/involving for you (as a relationship would be). Something that you can throw yourself into, for a period of time, with total dedication. Until you feel normal again. ..or any others like these.However, before any of these - or rather, during as well - the key is acceptance. Or, a certain kind of surrender. Not in the sense that you will or will not have something. But in the sense that you accept you can't control it. It's only ever really brought me peace of mind when I managed to reach a state in which either outcome was okay with me. So, the thing to give up is the notion that we can control something outside of ourselves in the first place. That's a bit tangential to your point. But it's not contradictory, I assure you. Just go one step further from renouncing the idea of having that relationship/family in your vision; to renouncing the notion that you are invested in the outcome in any way. The universe works through us. *It* is us, and we are *it*. It cannot function as well for us if we are blocking it (with our will, thoughts, doubts, whatever). To be fully conscious, we must, on some level, surrender to the will of the universe and trust that it'll steer things in our favour, in ways we cannot foresee. Plan B & C sometimes turn out to be way better than our rosy-eyed plan A. The thing that works is the simplest yet most difficult - acceptance, acceptance, acceptance.More or less like :: "Okay, Universe. Am I getting my happy ending or not? Yes? No? Kinda-Sorta-Maybe? Doesn't matter. Either way, I'll be just fine."andstuff quote:Originally posted by Dancing Maenad:No, actually, I have something to say here. I know that starting a thread leaves the door open to all sorts of responses, however telling me that I shouldn't be feeling the way I do, that it's silly or that I am overthinking it - however well intended it may have been - [b]is not helping![/B]I guess the reason the thread got a bit derailed is that by renouncing one usually means giving up something one already has I can totally relate to your resentment, people will always give you a reason you should not feel depressed / frustrated / sad, whatever. The problem is that the good things you already have or the plight of girls in the export processing zones in Indonesia are never good enough reasons not to feel sad. It is your sadness and it's a justified reaction to your experiences, bc it's your life and your way of navigating it. If you want a comment that's more on topic, there is something I really want in my life that feels crucial to it that I currently don't have. If my dreams fail to come true, I'll have two options, renouncing or settling for less. Settling is like raping or killing myself for nothing I suppose. Renouncing kind of has more dignity to it, so it feels like the lesser evil. If one assesses the options. I have always thought pride and dignity were those 2 things no one can take away, so it's better to hold onto them. That is if one goes for the worst case scenario. I say if life gives you lemons, trample on them and throw them back at life, but don't eat them and especially don't convince yourself the lemonade might turn out to be good. Pretty much any decision that doesn't make you feel like you're begging for something is good enough, presumably. I tend to look down upon the advice to "trust the universe" and such. Not sure I buy this higher intention/amor fati business. Even though I think I accidentally saw/felt the higher intention during some practice or other and it didn't feel threatening or bad or anything, I am still not convinced. I nearly took my life a few years ago, so I have some experience or other of looking down on life and people because what I held dear was taken away from me and all I could get instead was just blah (mostly it still is lol). Dancing MaenadI am sorry for not responding in a while. I am grateful for all of your replies, I pondered on them. I have been thinking about this a lot and I cringe every time I do. I am NOT ready to give this up, I cannot accept that I must resign to a life of solitude. I don't even want to raise a kid by myself, I believe that is also a compromise. It sucks badly because it depends on another person as well as on me and I cannot control it. It's very frustrating and discouraging because I don't feel like men see me as a woman these days. A professional, a friend, an acquaintance - but not a woman they would date. Not an easy find, but I suppose it's my fault. I just don't know what to do anymore, but I know I am not ready to renounce my ovaries just yet.
What I was thinking about was renouncing the idea of having a family. And being resolute about staying alone for the rest of my life. Not an easy thought.
If I may, do you really have to make such a decision? It's just that there is no way of knowing if the circumstances in your life might be right at some point, surely? You know there's only 'now', so now you don't have a family of your own, that's all that is certain.
quote:Originally posted by andstuff:@DancingMaenadIf I may, do you really have to make such a decision? It's just that there is no way of knowing if the circumstances in your life might be right at some point, surely? You know there's only 'now', so now you don't have a family of your own, that's all that is certain.
I also asked myself what brought you to arrive at such a final conclusion..
There are lonely people out there, some by choice, some by circumstance. I don't know how to be okay with that, if I'm considering it would be permanent. I like my own company and my me-time, it's not that... But I always assumed one day I'd have another option, you know?
I am just wondering if I should brace myself for that scenario. It's not something easy to accept.
I met someone my age a few years ago. He had a wife and six-month-old child. They were both suddenly killed.
I know biological motherhood is complicated for women. The society is set up so that our fertility ends just around the time it would be most convenient, life-stage-wise, to have a child. There are also lots of women who have fertility problems even when they're young.
You could have a biological child as a single parent now, or adopt a child, and later meet the most wonderful partner to complete your family. You could meet a great partner nine years from now and adopt a child or children together. Or you could meet a partner who's a single parent, and you could actually be meant to be a mother to his child(ren.). You do NOT have to give up on the idea of having a beautiful family---the details might not be exactly your ideal, but the reality might be even better than your current ideal.
quote:Originally posted by Lucia23:Oh, DM, please don't be silly!! You are young, obviously a wonderful and accomplished person, and you want to be a mom and listen---with WELL over 50% of marriages ending in divorce and well over half (one statistic I read was more like 75%) of kids being raised in single-parent homes for at least part of their childhoods, a lot of people who had the dream of having an ideal family and thought they were making it come true have to give it up anyway.I met someone my age a few years ago. He had a wife and six-month-old child. They were both suddenly killed.I know biological motherhood is complicated for women. The society is set up so that our fertility ends just around the time it would be most convenient, life-stage-wise, to have a child. There are also lots of women who have fertility problems even when they're young.You could have a biological child as a single parent now, or adopt a child, and later meet the most wonderful partner to complete your family. You could meet a great partner nine years from now and adopt a child or children together. Or you could meet a partner who's a single parent, and you could actually be meant to be a mother to his child(ren.). You do NOT have to give up on the idea of having a beautiful family---the details might not be exactly your ideal, but the reality might be even better than your current ideal.
quote:Originally posted by Ayelet:I don't think you should decide something like that at any given time. There is always a chance to find great love.
Yes, I suppose that is right. I've had great loves before. But great love that stays...?
I've been pretty low lately, and this sort of thinking is the main reason. I can't help feeling at some level that I'm just not worthy of it. I guess that's the main issue. My low self esteem in this respect. I was never good at attracting the men I wanted and, as experience proved, even worse at keeping them. I don't have faith in myself that I can attract a good man and often feel I need to settle for what I can find, which I have done often, anyways. Nobody can blame me for not giving chances to a broad spectrum of individuals.
Anyways, this is a pretty rough topic for me. Suffice to say I attempted suicide when my first engagement ended. Granted, it was the final blow to a long line of smaller blows and I wasn't at my sanest at the time, but still, what I'm trying to say is that relationships have always been a priority in my life. And a never-ending source of heartache. And while I can be ok and thrive on my own, for some reason I'm feeling the pangs really bad this time.
Sorry if my suggestion comes uninvited, but have you ever tried applied kinesiology? I became a new person after 3 sessions or thereabouts. The method is somewhat marginal, but I personally can buy into the idea that everything leaves an imprint on our bodies, and our bodies later affect our outlook on life and our view of ourselves.
The trick is to find a good specialist I guess, I'd say they should be able to tell you about things that happened to you by simply exploring your body, and it should roughly hit home (I had to ask my mother, because it happened way before I went to school). Not in detail, just some rough idea (at what age, what kind of strong emotions you experienced etc.). And I suppose they should have a decent background in classical western medicine as well.
I pretty much used to convince myself there is nothing wrong with me, now my body knows it so it feels better.
I second that.
And especially the "Staying alone" part. Why would you decide something like that? You never know you might meet someone lovely tomorrow or next week.
I`d rather you stay simply open to whatever opportunity comes your way without trying to force an issue, no matter into what direction.
I am open, I just don't believe anymore.
Nevermind.
I know that starting a thread leaves the door open to all sorts of responses, however telling me that I shouldn't be feeling the way I do, that it's silly or that I am overthinking it - however well intended it may have been - is not helping!
I asked a legitimate question. If you ever had to give up something of importance to you, how did you do it?
That is what I want to know. NOT your opinions about how my life could change tomorrow or a few months from now. It could or it could not. You don't know, nobody does. Astrology is deceiving, so is Tarot, so are psychics. There's no accurate way to know. So stop acting like it's a given! It's not and you're not living in my shoes. You don't know how it feels. And it's disrespectful to downplay it.
I think perhaps it's very hard to depend your whole life on something you do not know would happen or not... and your decision to stay alone may have to do with the need to cope with a possible reality and find a source for happiness which does not rely on a partner.
quote:Originally posted by Ayelet:I think perhaps it's very hard to depend your whole life on something you do not know would happen or not... and your desicion to stay alone may have to do with the need to cope with a possible reality and find a source for happiness which does not rely on a partner.
Yeah..There can be different approaches, depending on what works for you.
The "next best thing" approach -- Fine, you can't have plan A, but what about a plan B or C..? Are people with plan A even truly happy?
The "substitute" approach -- For people going off of cigarettes, they have nicotine patches. Find your relationship patch. What exactly is it you're seeking? Can it find fulfillment elsewhere?
The "distractions" approach -- What is equally absorbing/involving for you (as a relationship would be). Something that you can throw yourself into, for a period of time, with total dedication. Until you feel normal again.
..or any others like these.
However, before any of these - or rather, during as well - the key is acceptance. Or, a certain kind of surrender. Not in the sense that you will or will not have something. But in the sense that you accept you can't control it.
It's only ever really brought me peace of mind when I managed to reach a state in which either outcome was okay with me. So, the thing to give up is the notion that we can control something outside of ourselves in the first place. That's a bit tangential to your point. But it's not contradictory, I assure you. Just go one step further from renouncing the idea of having that relationship/family in your vision; to renouncing the notion that you are invested in the outcome in any way. The universe works through us. *It* is us, and we are *it*. It cannot function as well for us if we are blocking it (with our will, thoughts, doubts, whatever). To be fully conscious, we must, on some level, surrender to the will of the universe and trust that it'll steer things in our favour, in ways we cannot foresee.
Plan B & C sometimes turn out to be way better than our rosy-eyed plan A.
The thing that works is the simplest yet most difficult - acceptance, acceptance, acceptance.More or less like :: "Okay, Universe. Am I getting my happy ending or not? Yes? No? Kinda-Sorta-Maybe? Doesn't matter. Either way, I'll be just fine."
quote:Originally posted by Dancing Maenad:No, actually, I have something to say here. I know that starting a thread leaves the door open to all sorts of responses, however telling me that I shouldn't be feeling the way I do, that it's silly or that I am overthinking it - however well intended it may have been - [b]is not helping![/B]
I know that starting a thread leaves the door open to all sorts of responses, however telling me that I shouldn't be feeling the way I do, that it's silly or that I am overthinking it - however well intended it may have been - [b]is not helping!
[/B]
I guess the reason the thread got a bit derailed is that by renouncing one usually means giving up something one already has
I can totally relate to your resentment, people will always give you a reason you should not feel depressed / frustrated / sad, whatever. The problem is that the good things you already have or the plight of girls in the export processing zones in Indonesia are never good enough reasons not to feel sad. It is your sadness and it's a justified reaction to your experiences, bc it's your life and your way of navigating it.
If you want a comment that's more on topic, there is something I really want in my life that feels crucial to it that I currently don't have. If my dreams fail to come true, I'll have two options, renouncing or settling for less. Settling is like raping or killing myself for nothing I suppose. Renouncing kind of has more dignity to it, so it feels like the lesser evil. If one assesses the options. I have always thought pride and dignity were those 2 things no one can take away, so it's better to hold onto them. That is if one goes for the worst case scenario. I say if life gives you lemons, trample on them and throw them back at life, but don't eat them and especially don't convince yourself the lemonade might turn out to be good.
Pretty much any decision that doesn't make you feel like you're begging for something is good enough, presumably.
I tend to look down upon the advice to "trust the universe" and such. Not sure I buy this higher intention/amor fati business. Even though I think I accidentally saw/felt the higher intention during some practice or other and it didn't feel threatening or bad or anything, I am still not convinced.
I nearly took my life a few years ago, so I have some experience or other of looking down on life and people because what I held dear was taken away from me and all I could get instead was just blah (mostly it still is lol).
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