posted August 17, 2002 04:16 PM         

A Pilgrims Progress - Is it all down to the Planets???? You tell me....I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts.

OK....bit of "background" information

No one knows how the Zodiac first became involved in the classification of personalities or attempts to "predict" the future but the first known personal horoscope was drawn in 410BC
The Zodiac certainly existed by 500BC.
There is evidence that the "modern" zodiac was in place, long before Christ.
Plato wrote about astrology in 365BC - the signs were still ruled by Gods and Goddesses and were linked to myths from Babylon, Eygpt and Assryia. Much modern astrological interpretation relates very powerfully to myth, since these concepts form a background to human behaviour and motivation.

Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter & Saturn are all known as antiquity (ie: ancient, very old, the far distant past, the time preceding the Middle Ages in Europe).
Uranus, Neptune, Pluto & Chiron were discovered in relatively modern times and are generally referred to as "the modern planets"

So how far back would you like to start our Pilgrims Progress???

Middles Ages - long way back
Uranus - discovered in 1781
Neptune - discovered in 1846
Pluto - discovered in 1930
Chiron - 1977

You tell me where you would like to begin our journey - I hope you'll find it fascinating how we've "Progressed"
Sue

posted August 18, 2002 02:26 AM         

I agree with Randall! I vote for the middle ages too!

posted August 18, 2002 04:20 AM         

As far as I can find out, it's not known exactly when Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter & Saturn where first discovered. So hard to "pin point" when changes occurred.
You got any thoughts on this?

We're looking at a time that excludes
Uranus, Neptune, Pluto & Chiron.
So before 1781 when Uranus was discovered.

So how did people live?
How did they communicate, travel?
How did they "fight", love?
What did they do for pleasure?
Where were their "boundaries", what did they think was right and wrong?
What were there beliefs?

posted August 18, 2002 10:36 AM         

Ok - gotta think about this one now.....when I get an I'll be back
Sue

posted August 18, 2002 11:50 AM         

Medieval Beliefs
Your average medieval Christian was quite comfortable with astrology, and saw it as another manifestation of “divine power”. Thomas Aquinas, one of the foremost theologians of the period, said that, if the moon could influence the tides of the ocean, there was no reason to deny that the planets could influence mankind. (Thomas, however, did not believe that such knowledge should be used for predicting the future, except in serious cases – I’m not sure exactly what he classed as “serious cases”, seems to be rather contradictory to me but I’d have to find out exactly what he meant be that!).

It’s difficult to understand much of the medieval literature and poetry without acknowledging the influence that concepts of astrology had. There also is an element of spirituality that can be seen in the attitude towards some of the principles of astrology.

In the early days of the Christian era, the gods of ancient Rome, (whose actions had been seen as reflected by the planets), were memories that those who were promoting the growth of the new religion needed to reckon with.

The popular literature and entertainment of the period, with Geoffrey Chaucer's Miller's Tale as a prime example – shows that concepts of astrology were much a part of the general thought. (But Chaucer's Tale, hardly illustrates that consulting the astrologers was wise!)

The concept of the planet’s influence on us was not questioned.

People of the Middle Ages, whose minds were focused on “divine power”, wondered at the thought that, when each of us came into the world, "the divine grace" that delighted in this unique individual was also accompanied by an entire universe being part of the tools of this creation.
The “divine art” declared that all of the planets would have some influence, at this singular time and place, in welcoming a new soul that was different from any other

In these days, the concept of free will was never denied. Such influences as the planets may have on the individual's destiny were nothing more than the reflection of divine providence.

They believed that each situation provided the opportunity to grow in virtue.
Then, as now, no method of divination is seen as dictating man's actions. The outcome of a situation remains in the control of the intellect and will that was given us when we were created.

Hmmm so not too disimilar to astrologers beliefs today - but obviously this is not currently the belief of the "masses".

posted August 18, 2002 12:44 PM         

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thomas Aquinas
I like Thomas Aquinas. Thomas Aquinas was a church man well educated and Very Very Smart. The Church didn't like him much once they realised he was smart. They sent him to a monastary Very out of the way where they sent all their troublemakers and hoped he would straighten up. He didn't. What he did do is discover the works of Aristotle via the arabic translations and from these set about translating to english.
He is known for his Debates, which is how he would often discuss his philosophy and most of his works have a decided Socratic flair. As in, there is a question and then his replies and replies and replies, And then his question in response.
His work with Aristotle convinced him of empirical knowledge (that is which is gained through our five senses) and via that came to believe in Astrology.
Aquinas has been refered to as the Bright Flame of the Dark Ages.
His works came to great renouwn and via them, so did the Church. The Church liked that (IT was no small part of why they eventually were ceded tha land that is now the vatican), and invited him to come live at the vatican with them but Aquinas (As I said Smart) said No fearing he would not be allowed to continue his work in the manner he was using because it was for the time controversial. He was teaching people to Question, not just him, but their surroundings Everything, which was decidedly not in conjunction with the Church at the time. As time went on and most of the priests that studied under him went on to defect from the church further attempts to reinhim in or bring him closer to the supervising of the church were made, to no great sucess and he stayed until he died at his far off monastery.

** Aquinas was in fairly major opposition to the other major Philosopher @ the time, Augustine. Augustine was Definitly on the Side of the Divine everything. Augustine Believed that the only way to KNOW anything was through divine revelation and through revelations from the divine made to other people. Augustine's Major influence was Plato ~ All tables are merely Shadows of the Great Ideal Table / We are all just cave dwellers looking at shadows cast by the real shapes in front of the light {GOD} which only the gifted amoungst us can see. Aquinas was Aristotle ~ Its a Table. Its Made of Wood. There is No Ideal Table or if there is it has no Bearing on This Table. Tables are Individuals. / We all have the ability to Explore everything because it is all right in front of us. We all can be gifted with *TRUE Knowledge.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prussia was the only Fuedal Kingdom to survive the French revolution. In the end Democracy killed it. The last Renaissance man many people feel was Frederic (*Sic?) The Great, who was Really Fantastic. A Musician who composed several symphonies, a avid reader and writer (Him and Voltaire were both Great Friends and Great Enemies Butted heads on Divine rights, They have several well known correspondences), He was also a military genius and institued the first ever state run medicare. Also killed by democracy. Prussia during the period of the Dark Ages and immediatly following is an immensly interesting study.

posted August 18, 2002 01:20 PM         

I read something recently on the web - but didn't save it

Someone (dang I can't remember his name) is convinced Vulcan is out there - he puts it down to Mercury's erratic orbit (from memory)
But we know Linda always said it would be found someday.

posted August 20, 2002 07:24 PM         

Ok if you would like to start a new string on Ancient Greece - how things were back then. That would be excellent. I know zero about Ancient Greece and your knowledge would be excellent.

Randall and Jwhop said they wanted me to start with Medieval Times on this string....
So I'm still working on that one
I was hoping for a start when Uranus was discovered And how things changed at that point. ......
But hey I've a Virgo - up for a challenge

posted August 23, 2002 10:09 AM         

So how did people live?
How did they communicate, travel?
How did they "fight", love?
What did they do for pleasure?
Where were their "boundaries", what did they think was right and wrong?
What were there beliefs?

Sue