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Author
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Topic: Help Me Understand FairTax
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juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 494
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted October 28, 2010 06:32 PM
 
The Republican running for the Congressional 1st District (Dan Benishek)in MI is being slammed by Democrates as he is a proponet of the 23% FairTax act.
I have read the factcheck.org site and it didn`t really help me.
I would, once and for all, like to know what overall difference in taxes would be to the American public between the sales tax vs Fairtax.
thanks! juni------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 3882
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted October 29, 2010 12:31 AM
http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html
This one says Democrats are mischaracterizing FairTax: http://factcheck.org/2010/10/sales-tax-spin/ Wikipedia is generally good at pointing out the pros and cons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax IP: Logged |
juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 494
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 02, 2010 09:53 AM
Thanks  I`ve made as much sense of it as I can, my pencil is sharpened and off to the voting booth............... Happy voting  ------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 02, 2010 12:58 PM
off to vote for gridlock, juni? i am so looking forward to the next 2 years! happy voting!IP: Logged |
juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 494
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 02, 2010 01:27 PM
Nope Kat , I walked so no chance here It`s a done deal and guess we`ll see how serious Michiganders are for jobs/ecomomy and quality of life. ------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 02, 2010 07:13 PM
i meant gridlock in the govt but no matter. we can only do what we can do. whichever way the vote goes though, it says little about how serious people are, but which side of the argument they have believed. as per usual. unless of course you are one of those who think only those who vote with them are serious and trying to accomplish something.IP: Logged |
juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 494
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 04, 2010 09:48 AM
I`m just glad it`s over.
One more robo call for canidates and I would have thrown the phone in the woodstove No disapointments or suprises. It is what it is and time to move forward and be good citizens. ------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2516
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 04, 2010 11:04 AM
Hey Juni, congratulations. You got Republican Benishek for your Representative and a Republican Governor Rick Snyder and lost the demoscat and Canadian Socialist, Governor Jennifer Granholm.  Fair tax:  What is the FairTax plan?
The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment. The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 296) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities. The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system. The FairTax: Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities Allows American products to compete fairly
Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation Abolishes the IRS http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 04, 2010 12:59 PM
well all for abolishing the IRS but how exactly will "advance" payments for refunds for necessities be calculated - or paid for that matter? who decides what is the "bare necessities" and how much that costs? and how does someone without income benefit from ending income taxes? does this stop jobs being outsourced? money being laundered? any of the other things that are wrong with our economy? how many jobs will it cost to eliminate the IRS? how will they be replaced by the private sector? and all the tax accountants that are still thriving and putting money into the economy? won't the calculations of this fair tax also be a government dept costing money and red tape?
IP: Logged |
juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 494
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 04, 2010 05:52 PM
Well jwhop, it certainly will be interesting to have Dr Dan and businessman Rick in the drivers seat.
It surely won`t be politico business as usual.
Oh! And a double amen to saying bye bye to Jennifer Granholm but you forgot a big adios to B. Stupak. I believe I do understand the FairTax now and it appears, on the whole, to be better for the worker bee and the governing state. quote:
does this stop jobs being outsourced? money being laundered? any of the other things that are wrong with our economy?
Absolutely not, a crooked person is a crooked person and no law, tax or jail stint will affect their lack of morals or sticking it the other guy. ------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 05, 2010 10:52 AM
i guess jwhop doesn't care that the fair tax will make our products and services way more expensive = big effect on tourism, a major industry AND foreign sales of all kinds... put hundreds of thousands of people out of work via deconstructing the IRS mean that some SOCIALIST structure will have to be put in place to decide WHAT ARE THE BARE NECESSITIES AND WHAT DO THEY COST? all he cares about apparently is that obama and pelosi be destroyed. nice and no more than i expected. oh, and that he doesn't have to fill out a tax form every year. like i said it would be great to get rid of the IRS and the nightmare of doing taxes, but this is no less SOCIALIST than what we have now. IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2516
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 05, 2010 11:11 AM
Bullshiiit, the Fair Tax would make American businesses much more competitive with International competitors.Further, it would attract Trillions of dollars of foreign investment capital to the United States. "make our products and services way more expensive = big effect on tourism, a major industry AND foreign sales of all kinds"...katatonic Cracker Jacks economic wisdom! I have no regard whatsoever for the unconstitutional bloodsuckers at the IRS....who, after years of requests and demands, have yet to produce any statute in the United States Code which requires any unincorporated individual to file an individual income tax return. Oh yeah Juni; I forgot all about Bart Stupid who fell for O'Bomber's lie that O'BomberCare wouldn't pay for abortions. As Joe Wilson said to O'Bomber..."You lie". Thanks for the reminder! IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 05, 2010 11:34 AM
you mean, like the VAT made european goods more attractive to the rest of the world? and that was only 17.5%!!i would still like you to explain, as i asked very politely, WHO IS GOING TO DECIDE what constitutes the "bare necessities" and how much they cost? you don't want to be told what to buy but you don't mind if POOR PEOPLE are told what they are "entitled "to? and how will the loss of all those IRS jobs help the economy?? as i mentioned elsewhere the new british govt has cut 500,000 govt jobs. that is 10% MORE of the population out of work. and taxes going UP. is that what you want to see here? IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2516
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 05, 2010 03:29 PM
What's wrong with you katatonic?The Fair Tax is NOT a value added tax..VAT which taxes goods at every stage..from raw materials to store checkout counters. IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 06, 2010 11:43 AM
VAT is a sales tax. FAIR TAX is a sales tax. what are you saying, that all those things wil NOT be taxed? how does that work? if i buy materials for my business, or for my personal use, the tax will be on them. when people buy my product or service, the tax will be on THEM. what is the difference please?IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Moderator Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 06, 2010 06:57 PM
I'd rather be taxed on things I choose to buy than be taxed because I choose to work. If income taxes aren't abolished, I'd be so pleased if everyone just stopped working. The money will magically appear to provide us all with everything we need, of course.If I run my own business, of course I'll have to calculate the extra taxes on the things I have to buy (assuming it will work that way). But what about all the money I'll be saving not having to pay stupid amounts of taxes on everything else, not just business related but on a personal level, as well? IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 12:51 PM
lordy what does it take to get some information around here? i am not attacking anyone but asking questions. blindsiding and affirmations of solidarity are all very well but why does no one have an actual reply to help me understand how you think FAIR TAX is any better or fairer than income tax.who, eleanore, is going to decide what is necessary in terms of what you feed and clothe your kids with? who decides what's a "necessary" house and what is a "choice" house? on the face of it being taxed on what you CHOOSE to buy sounds great, but do you not understand that you are giving government the right to decide what is necessary and what is not? what's the difference between that and being told to buy health insurance? and since FAIR TAX has hardly been a campaign issue for most of the newly elected, what makes anyone think THIS is the will of the people? and what is the difference between the fair tax and the value-added tax - apart from NAME? i don't really expect eleanore to answer since it's not her style to return once she's given her opinion, but JWHOP you have been pushing this don't you think i have a right as an average citizen to know what it entails??????? or is your function purely negativity and bulldozing? IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 07, 2010 05:13 PM
still no enlightenment. just goes to show how much some people care about the facts.IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Moderator Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 10, 2010 05:07 PM
Um, katatonic, do you understand that the taxes we have now, and things like healthcare "reform" already give the government the right to decide what is "necessary"?Apparantly, it's necessary for us to pay taxes to educate everyone to 1 set point, but not beyond that. It's necessary to pay taxes to help support people who (for whatever reasons) don't work regardless of whether or not the system is being abused. It might be necessary to pay taxes for women to get birth control. How about Viagra? Seriously, that's an absurd argument. I wouldn't support a tax on food (any different than it is now though the idea of heavily taxing junk food isn't appalling to me) but everything else, why not? Do I have to own a home? No. I can CHOOSE to rent. Many people ... like the people who wisely refused to fall into the housing bubble trap ... do. How about you get to decide what you choose to buy ... based on whether or not you can afford it? Maybe I might have to give up my artisan cheese addiction to pay for my birth control but that's worth it to me. It's certainly better (imo) than paying out taxes on money I earn. Federal taxes! State taxes! Do you have any idea how many and how much we pay in taxes atm? Why is it so terrible to pay a little more taxes (we already have a sales tax) when you buy and not have your money taken away from you before it even reaches your wallet? That logic is not logical at all. What is the fear? What is the resistance about? If the fear is that rich people won't still be carrying the burden, uh, I do have a feeling that the people with the most money who will end up buying the most things will still end up paying most of the taxes. I dunno', call me crazy. In this consumer mad economy, I don't see how we'll "run" out of money for "necessary" programs, either. (You know, how the government has decided that Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Social Security, etc. are all "necessary".) I'm just an unenlightend lunatic, I guess. IP: Logged |
AbsintheDragonfly
Moderator Posts: 1521
From: Gaia
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted November 10, 2010 05:23 PM
Ok isn't 18% going to be a little more out of the pockets of the poor and lower middle class than the upper middle class and wealthy? I mean if you're only pulling down $50K or so a year, and 18% gets taken out of your pocket anytime you buy something, that's a whole lot more money than someone who's making at least 6 figures. How is this "fair?" Let's take my own family for example...we have one income because I stay at home, knock on the wood about the perfuming business taking off, so 18% is alot out of that $53K that Kevin makes, and that's before taxes by the way. IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 10, 2010 07:36 PM
eleanore i appreciate your actually coming back to the topic, first of all.i was not saying that the income tax was better, only that it is NO LESS bureaucratic than the fair tax. still have to collect, set allowances, decide what's deductible and what not, except now as abs says a family on 50 grand has to pay the tax. sure, they can rent, buy used clothes, stay out of restaurants, but what abs said is true, this comes as much more of a burden to your average family than the income tax where they can write off the expenses of their business or whatever to the point where, as jwhop says, the bottom half pay nothing (though that is an exaggeration) while the wealthy are already paying next to nothing in taxes and a little hike on their top dollars is not that much more than chump change. ask warren buffet. does he qualify as one of the rich? i would say food and shelter are necessities, but warren buffet's idea of minimal housing is very different from mine. who decides how much is tax free? no one had to take out loans on their houses either but for some very good reasons a lot did. how does this stop loopholes? i don't think it does. and it's not 18% they're talking about but 23+... i would celebrate if i didn't have to go through the frigging tax return ritual every year, but that doesn't mean this is going to work the way the precis suggests. i think these questions need to be asked is all before everyone jumps at it because it means they don't have to do ANY of the calculations. i kind of prefer to be in the driver's seat and wonder why the anti-socialists don't see it that way too? we rail and rail about socialist programs. like basic education for all. food for all (to a point), housing for all (kind of). social security, medicare and the VA PROGRAM were also considered socialist evils when presented. i don't see anyone saying these should be discontinued. and i notice rand paul is not too upset about receiving federal money for HIS state. i just think this is just more yadayada that will cost money and take up time and attention from other issues we might not like. IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 1684
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 10, 2010 11:32 PM
Necessities will be spelled out, but in the very least will be food, housing/rent, and medicine. But if you want that yaht, you will have to pay the tax. Prices will stabilize over time and be about the same as they are now (in a free market like the US), because the prices we have now are due to the current tax burden and expense of paying it (record-keeping and filing) that a company incurs and includes in the price of goods and services. I know it sounds irrational to think that, but it's simple economics. And eliminating the federal mafia (IRS) can only be a good thing. IP: Logged |
AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 3882
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 11, 2010 01:16 AM
They would still have to fix the math issue that's referenced in the factcheck article.IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 5627
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 11, 2010 08:30 PM
and i thank you for pointing out at this late stage in the game that i don't have to buy a house! i am not one of the people who got caught in the home-buying fever of the last couple of decades. the first time i looked at a mortgage contract i said i will buy when i can pay it down FAST, as john commuta says, mortgages are robbery. let alone a mortgage that was never worth the paper it was written on in the first place !anyway i repeat i am not resisting but i have seen way too many leaps from frying pan into the fire to just jump at this on its face value. questions deserve and need answers. and one more question. why are SS and medicare NOT socialist when seen as recipients of this scheme? IP: Logged |
juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 494
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted November 11, 2010 08:45 PM
quote:
They would still have to fix the math issue that's referenced in the factcheck article.
I agree AG. Thje math is confusing to say the least.
I understood the issue better by referencing the VAT vs FairTax. ------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
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