posted October 23, 2004 04:08 PM              

What is it about Virgo influences that makes one prone to believe that there is a "perfect" world, or better yet, a perfect state for things in our lives, and even believing that state can be extended indefinitely?

In the sense that Pisces dreams of that "perfect state" as well, yet, they don't mind just going inside themselves, however deep they have to go to create it for themselves. Virgo is Earth, so probably more concerned with not just what's inside their head.

One of the frustrating things is having a strong Virgo influence, at the same time, having a strong Scorpio influence. The Virgo trying to believe the status quo doesn't have to change. Then sh!t happens, and the Scorpio stuff has to step in, destroy & rebuild.

I have nothing in my 12th House. In Pisces, I have Chiron, Pallas & Juno.

My Virgo stuff is, Venus Conjunct Pluto in the 4th.

I have other "dreamy" influences -

Venus Sextile Neptune
Mars Conjunct Neptune
Neptune Sextile Pluto
Neptune Square MC

If you were to see all these influences as individual characters, which would you think was the "CULPRIT" in making one believe they can achieve that "perfect state", and sustain it indefinitely?

Thanks very much.

posted October 25, 2004 06:23 PM              

gosh, i can totally relate. achieving perfection is something that dominates my life. sometimes i attribute it to wanting the most efficient and effective use for things (that would be my virgo influence? sun & mercury in 6th house). and sometimes it's more metaphysical. i would associate that with pisces & neptune.

i think your venus sextile neptune is an interesting aspect, and probably a contributor to desiring perfection...i have this amazing aspect book that i got recently, the info is AMAZING (i cannot BELIEVE how spot-on it was about my exact sun-pluto opposition). i'll bring it to work tomorrow and give you some info from it on that particular aspect.

ive been reading up on an aspect recently called the quindecile, according to this one astrologer (165 degrees): http://www.aaabooksearch.com/ISBN/1567185622
(that's the book i picked up.)

anyways, this aspect is supposed to have a lot to do with obsession and compulsion, which might be related to wanting a pefect world...i have 3 quindeciles in my natal chart. sun-AC, sun-uranus, and mercury-pluto. the only one i can definitively say i understand is my sun quindecile my ascendant. i am CONSTANTLY seeking to improve my environment. i want everything in it's perfect place. and i'm not talking about me being some better homes and gardens type chick, either...i just HAVE to have everything sorted and organized and in its proper place...i want the perfect environment. does that make sense? i know i'm probably going to sound crazy to you. but hey, what's crazy if not interesting, right?

anyway, do you have any quindeciles in your natal chart? maybe, if you do, that might be related to a compulsion to seek out the perfect world...

i'll bring in that book, tomorrow, promise, youll be astounded at its accuracy.

posted October 26, 2004 01:39 AM              

Ahhhhhh .... someone else who can relate. It's a beautiful thing ...

As far as the Quindecile, I did an extensive search to learn more about it. Apparently some astrologers think of it as 165 degrees, and others 24 degrees. However, what it stands for seems to be the same all around, although a few references think of it as being positive, rather than the indication of "obsession".

One thing for sure, the book you got is THE most referenced book, probably the best book out there on this.

I was hoping I could look to see if I had a Quindecile by looking for it's symbol, but I don't know what it looks like. Does it look like that big symbol on the cover of Reeve's book?

If so, if it's like an oval with a line coming down from the bottom, I think I have spotted at least one in my chart.

Thanks for sharing. Really super interesting.

posted October 26, 2004 01:45 AM              

Sun - Moon
Saturn - Neptune
Uranus - Neptune

posted October 26, 2004 11:13 AM              

if you like, give me your sun through pluto sign placements and degrees (plus the 4 angles, too, that would be good), and i'll figure it for you. i do it by hand. i have to say, though, if you have a quindecile between your sun and moon, that's gotta be pretty significant! it would say a lot about being desirous of perfection (imo), and 'being oblivious to the rest of the world, in a sense' (that's according to the book). david bowie has this placement. woo! leonardo da vinci was also another person with natal quindeciles (moon-neptune and north node-uranus):

"LDV, perhaps one of the most renowned and beloved artists of all time, is acclaimed for his artistic sensitivity and depth of detailed perfection in his work. it is well known and documented that leonardo relentlessly pursued perfection and universal understanding that was not only focused in his artistic endeavors, but found its way into all facets of his life. he is known to have been extremely generous, noble, and kind, with an intelligence that appeared to know no bounds. his mind was always seeing a higher understanding of not only artistic and creative realms with which he worked, but also the physical world around him. he studied everything from anatomy, mechanics, aerodynamics, to the animals and plants he encountered in his immediate environment. he was an innovator of though and an inventor of things far beyond their time."

anyways, setting the quindecile aside for a moment, i wanted to give you some of the info from the aspects in astrology book i have that's so good. i'm only going to type about half of it, since it's like a whole chapter, and the stuff i've edited out pertains more to the hard aspects, and yours is a soft aspect. i think aspects between venus and neptune do deal with concepts of reality, and perfection. venus, besides being about love & who you're attracted to, is also about tastes, right? not just *who*, but *what* we're attracted to. and combined with neptune...well, that seems significant. anyway, here it is:

"i like the fact that he lives in another city and has a steady relationship there -- there's less pressure on me. yes, i'd love something permanent but my concept of the ideal relationship bears no relation to reality."

this quote from a woman with a venus/neptune (v/n) opposition clearly illustrates one of the common issues of this combination and especially that of commitment. classically, these people are reluctant to commit themselves to any one partnership for they do not want to give up the dream of a relationship that is wonderful, romantic, and surely made in heaven.

people with v/n contacts are inspired by beauty, peace, and grace. commonly, they do not want to know about ugliness or discord. this applies to art, music, and to relationships.

the v/n individual is invariably very romantic and idealistic about relationships. they are in love -- so much so that there can be great difficulty maintaining interest in, and commitment to, an ordinary person and the rigors of (let's face it) unromanticism of the everyday domestic and habitual living with someone.

shakespeare tells us that love is blind, and certainly when madly in love we cannot see things clearly. eventually, though, we discover the real other person, warts and all. but v/n does not want to discover the warts. when the v/n person finds that they are no longer waking up in an emotionally drunken state, they can suffer enormous disillusionment but this rarely lasts for long, for the individual usually manages to weave fantasies around the situation. the disillusionment may be dealt with in several different ways. sometimes the v/n person will somehow retire from the scene, withdrawing to suffer and lick their wounds. sometimes they will ensure that the partner does. and many more will keep up the pretense of a relationship whilt pursuing interests elsewhere.

people with the easy aspects tend to find it easy to accept people and their relationships as they are. they are no less idealistic or romantic than those with the hard aspects but there is less of a need for discrimination, for these individuals have few illusions about people. sometimes it seems they can walk into another's psyche and see what is there.

v/n people are looking for a mystical experience in their relationships, something that is made in heaven. sometimes the v/n person chooses celibacy or a platonic relationship. often, the v/n can be found saving themselves for the right person, especially if virgo is found in the configuration. neptune refines the venus principle and can do so to such an extent that the individual shuns physical love, seeing it as crass or sordid. v/n yearns for a meeting of souls but not necessarily of bodies.

the v/n person will often seek to attract others by embodying a particular image at the expense of revealing the person they really are. by being poignant, wistful, elusive and alluring, they subtly entice, seduce, and fascinate.

whilst an ideal personal love may be difficult to achieve, an all-embracing, compassionate and caring love for all humanity usually comes easy to the v/n type. that is both the good news and bad news about v/n people. they have the rare gift of being able to love everyone while often finding personal love with one individual particularly elusive. as the individual becomes more able to accept and value themselves as they really are, they usually become more able to accept the totality of someone else and thus the opportunity for the ideal relationship is born.

perhaps everyone to some extent has an idealized notion of beauty and a notion of perfection in romance. the media seduces us into believing that there is such a thing as the ideal body, face, or appearance. in reality, few people look like the media image and doubtless would appear synthetic and artificial if they did. but human beings seems to need to have some ideal, some sort of yearning for perfection, something they can aspire to.

perhaps it is the role and purpose of the v/n person to embody the notion of romantic love or ideal beauty or perfection. for surely they act as the people we project these images onto in the first place. when the individual is consciously able to embody v/n in this way and through some creative medium, it usually takes the pressure off their relationships for a vehicle will have been found in which they can express their romanticism.

creative examples abound everywhere. we might cite mozart (opposition) and jane austen (semi-square). the latter is interesting from the relationship angle, for though she was obviously tremendously romantic, and indeed wrote almost exclusively about relationships, she chose to remain single herself. jane fonda also has the square.

romantic - marked by the imaginative or emotional appeal of what is heroic, adventurous, remote, perfect, mysterious, or idealized.

i feel i can relate to your venus/neptune aspect because of my piscean (and singleton, to boot - the only water sign in my chart) sun. perfection of a higher order (in short, idealism) appeals to me. the quindeciles in my chart feed my need for a different kind of perfection, however. maybe it's more of a virgonian kind of thing where that's concerned. i like fixing things, making them 'right'. putting things in their place, organizing. i like re-arranging things in my environment. it all boils down to efficiency, for me. what is the most efficient use for an object? for an emotion? how can i utilize efficiency in this situation? yada, yada, yada.

hope you enjoy!

posted October 26, 2004 05:05 PM              

Sun Libra 9.37
Moon Cancer 26.01
Merc Scorpio 4.53
Venus Virgo 11.29
Mars Scorpio 0.51
Jupiter Cap 27.28
Saturn Cap 23.16
Uranus Leo 28.46
Neptune Scorpio 9.55
Pluto Virgo 8.56

Asc Taurus 29.48
IC Leo 14.57
Desc Scorpio 29.48
MC Aquarius 14.57

I'm sincerely interested. It seems to be a very strong & well documented influence, which is strange because it's not considered one of the "major" aspects.

Thank you so much.

posted October 26, 2004 06:09 PM              

If I give you my stats could you tell me if I have those particular influences too?

posted October 26, 2004 06:14 PM              

i'll do hers tonight and yours tomorrow.

posted October 27, 2004 10:27 AM              

planet - sign / degree / house / motion

Sun - Virgo / 12°33'35 / 03 / direct
Moon - Pisces / 21°25'25 / 09 / direct
Mercury - Leo / 27°23'05 / 02/3 / stationary (D)
Venus - Virgo / 15°01'11/ 03 / direct
Mars - Aquarius / 11°59'06 / 08 / retrograde
Jupiter / Scorpio / 29°16'05 / 05 / direct
Saturn - Gemini / 06°22'02 / 11/12 / direct
Uranus - Libra / 11°59'43 / 04 / direct
Neptune - Sagittarius / 00°27'42 / 05 / direct
Pluto - Virgo / 28°53'58 / 03/4 / direct
True Node - Aquarius / 14°21'36 / 08 / retrograde

House positions (Placidus)
Ascendant Cancer 08°47'36
2nd House Leo 02°43'04
3rd House Leo 28°52'44
Imum Coeli Virgo 29°17'33
5th House Scorpio 03°21'25
6th House Sagittarius 07°26'32
Descendant Capricorn 08°47'36
8th House Aquarius 02°43'04
9th House Aquarius 28°52'44
Medium Coeli Pisces 29°17'33
11th House Taurus 03°21'25
12th House Gemini 07°26'32

Hope its OK. If you need anything else let me know. Thanks!

posted October 27, 2004 11:29 AM              

i like what this site says about the minor aspects:
http://www.donmc.com/minoraspects.htm

basically, we all know the majors are the conjunction, the opposotion, the square, the sextile, and the trine, but this guy makes a case for these minor aspects being pretty important, too:

1. the quincunx
2. the quindecile
3. the quintile
4. the semisquare
5. the sesquiquadrate

he says after that come the most minor aspects: the semisextile, the novile, the decile, the septile, the vigintile. he says these aspects are safe to ignore (generally speaking). i think the only one in this list that might not be safe to ignore is the semisextile in synastry, when it involves personal planets or perhaps the ruling planet or something like that. i think it's safe to say that i'm not sure i actually feel any of the semisextiles in my natal chart, but in synastry it could be important, if say the 2 suns were semisextile or the sun and the moon.

anyways, i checked your chart last night for quindeciles (you have no idea how much i enjoy doing this, i get out my little calculator and sit on the couch with a soda and a cat curled around my feet, trying to distract me, and i just methodically check each planet against all the others...i guess it feeds my OCD).

you have:

uranus quindecile the MC by 1°
jupiter quindecile the Ic by 2°

the quindecile book gives a little interpretation:

uranus (disruption of the status quo through use of innovative ideas) quindecile midheaven (external focus through one's career and societal position) - may be driven to take risks in one's career or switch jobs/career often. may be a leading force or in a position of authority within societal rebellions. innovative ideas may be utilized within one's career or societal position. technology or advancement of thought may be highlighted within one's career. the inventor. david bowie has this aspect, too!

the book doesn't give an interpretation for a planet quindecile the IC, but it does the MC, so i'll use that one as a guide and change the MC meaning to an IC one:

jupiter (excess, expansion, and growth) quindecile IC (the internal focus through one's home and environmental position) - may be driven by a need for a strong home base (?). may promote one's opinions, judgments, and beliefs through one's home or environmental position. may believe that home and family are everything. benefit comes through sharing one's philosophies and beliefs in the home arena. can be a domestic leader. benefit comes through optimistic outlook regarding home. can attain a happy home with this combination.

(i hope i didn't do too badly, there.)

i also checked your chart for other minor aspects which you may or may not be aware of:

1. sun quintile (that's what that funny looking Q symbol is) moon 1° - this is a highly auspicious aspect for creativity
2. sun tridecile jupiter 0°
3. sun novile uranus 1° - revels in one's individuality and one's difference from other people; goes one's own way, regardless of the views of others
4. moon biseptile neptune .1°
5. mercury binovile saturn 1°
6. venus biseptile AC .9°
7. mars biseptile pluto .6°
8. saturn biquintile uranus 1°
9. saturn quintile neptune 2°
10. uranus quintile neptune 1°
11. neptune quadrinovile AC 0°

and that's about it! i think that your jupiter quindecile your IC is probably a contributor to believing there's a perfect state for things or people or situations in your life. especially with regard to home issues...and your moon (and the moon is a pretty big part of our make-up) is in cancer (which is associated with 4th house issues), i can't help but think that that's gotta be tied somehow to that quindecile, that it colors it a little maybe. i don't know, though. i'm only speculating. what do you think?

i'm trying to get the hang of intuitively reading aspects, and i have to say, this board has caused me to make what feels like huge leaps and bounds in that area. tell me what you think of what i was mulling over last night: i read somewhere that having capricorn rising is sometimes an indication of early graying of the hair. i have a silver streak in my hair, originating at my right temple, and i'm not talking just a few grays here, it's a major silver streak which stands out against my dark brown hair. anyway, i don't have capricorn rising, but i do have libra rising, which is ruled by venus...and my saturn is in taurus, ruled by venus. do you think this has any significance? my speculation is that my rising sign and my saturn are linked somehow, which might be the reason why i developed a silver streak at age 30 (and there's no genetic reason for me to have grayed early; neither of my parents did, and my grandparents didn't, either). do you think i'm going out on a limb? i think i might possibly be on to something.

anyway, hope you enjoyed this little (big bit of info.

moonshine - i'll work on your later today/tonight, and get back to you tomorrow.

sincerely,
chrissy

posted October 27, 2004 01:56 PM              

ok, i lied, i was able to check out your chart over lunch, and i discovered a few interesting things.

first off, 2 very important planets in your chart, mercury (important because 1, you have a stellium in virgo which is ruled by mercury - plus you have a planet in gemini which is also ruled by mercury and 2, it's stationary so that makes it a focalizer) and mars (which is important because it's retrograde) are in quindecile to each other.

secondly, you have 2 other quindeciles:

sun-mc (midheaven) 2°
venus-mc 1°

you also have a 3° quindecile (a little wider orb than the quindecile book recommends, but it may be important nonetheless) between uranus and the midheaven.

(before i give you the short interps the book gives for those quindecile aspects, let me say that in addition to the importance of the ruling planet in one's chart - the ruling planet being the planet that rules the ascendant, and yours is the moon because it rules cancer - mercury also appears to be an important planet in your chart for the reasons i stated above.)

mercury (use of intelligence, metnal comprehension and communication) quindecile mars (application of energy in the form of action) - may be driven or compelled to act on one's ideas and thoughts. may force one's ideas on others through arguments or debates. sexual innuendo may be prominent. mat talk too much, or be compelled to talk a lot. can possess the ability to speak one's mind directly and use communication abilities to present concept assertively. may possess an extremely active mind. jack nicholson has this aspect.

(let me say here since mars is retrograde this interpretation may be modified... mars retrograde gives rise to irrational action; introspection; depression and self-assessment; relationship conflicts. there is a tendency to dwell on issues and concerns which relate to the sign involved.)

sun (seeking of ego recognition) quindecile MC (external focus through one's career and societal position) - may be driven toward fame, success and ego recognition. can be driven to take center stage. may have the ability to set goals and reach them realistically, taking into account ego needs, talents and so on. may be artistic and creative. allen ginsberg and christian dior have this aspect.

venus (the need to cooperate and collaborate) quindecile MC (the external focus through one's career and societal position) - may use one's beauty, charm, or seduction to succeed. money and social standing may become the goal within one's relationships. may marry the boss to get ahead. may be obsessed with social standing. benefit comes through sharing one's values and resources through a position of authority. can be successful through artistic and creative means. princess di had this aspect.

and the uranus-mc thing i typed above for gloria, so just read that little blurb. your aspect is 3 degrees, though, may be less potent.

hope that helps!

posted October 27, 2004 02:04 PM              

with regards to your personal environment & life, your stellium in virgo plus the other planet in gemini that you have, saturn i think, all ruled by mercury probably strongly influences you in that area.

and with your moon in pisces, that's going to influence your idealism or spirituality strongly. believing in a perfect world, or dreaming of one, comes very easy to you.

posted October 27, 2004 02:04 PM              

I know - I've learned so much from hanging out here too. Thank you so much for looking up the (for sure) quindecile's for me. I've always been a bit impatient around people who just go along with the status quo all the time. Like many girls in school got married young, and I was like, I want to see the world first!

As for the homefront, I've talked extensively in the past here about what I believe is my "jinxed 4th House", and I don't mean "believe" in a self-defeating way, I mean, it's JINXED!!

There's a lot of 4th House activity in my Chart, and so whatever hopes I had of that close family was never possible, and my hopes only make it that much more painful.

Keep at it! And no wonder I love Bowie so much - I wouldn't mind meeting him and his beautiful wife Iman.

posted October 27, 2004 04:50 PM              

--------------------
mercury (use of intelligence, metnal comprehension and communication) quindecile mars (application of energy in the form of action) - may be driven or compelled to act on one's ideas and thoughts. may force one's ideas on others through arguments or debates. sexual innuendo may be prominent. mat talk too much, or be compelled to talk a lot. can possess the ability to speak one's mind directly and use communication abilities to present concept assertively. may possess an extremely active mind. jack nicholson has this aspect.
-----------------------------

This sounds a bit like me when i was younger. Im not so talkative or forceful about communicating my ideas now. i prefer to keep them to myself as often I cant bothered to explain why I feel the way I do about things, maybe its an age thing.

--------------------
(let me say here since mars is retrograde this interpretation may be modified... mars retrograde gives rise to irrational action; introspection; depression and self-assessment; relationship conflicts. there is a tendency to dwell on issues and concerns which relate to the sign involved.)
------------------------
This is very true. I think mars must be a strong influence on me then. The last few years I have been quite introspective and depressed at times. I have always been quite introverted and as Ive got older, Ive become more so.

-------------------------
sun (seeking of ego recognition) quindecile MC (external focus through one's career and societal position) - may be driven toward fame, success and ego recognition. can be driven to take center stage. may have the ability to set goals and reach them realistically, taking into account ego needs, talents and so on. may be artistic and creative. allen ginsberg and christian dior have this aspect.
----------------------
Lol, this is not me at all! I hate being centre of attention! I always try to blend in the background where ever i am. I am quite drawn to creative pursuits though, and I tend to be attracted to creative types.
----------

venus (the need to cooperate and collaborate) quindecile MC (the external focus through one's career and societal position) - may use one's beauty, charm, or seduction to succeed. money and social standing may become the goal within one's relationships. may marry the boss to get ahead. may be obsessed with social standing. benefit comes through sharing one's values and resources through a position of authority. can be successful through artistic and creative means. princess di had this aspect.
---------------

I dont relate much to this either. I have always had a strong work ethic and have always been very into my career, although probably more so when I was younger, and I do have a creative job in magazine publishing. (I couldnt work in a job which didnt allow me to be creative, at least a little bit!)

I have never been obsessed with social standing and I would never marry the boss to get ahead!! Im shocked at that! Its totally against all of my beliefs and principles (read my posts in the "frosty girl" thread in soul unions).

-----------------------
and the uranus-mc thing i typed above for gloria, so just read that little blurb. your aspect is 3 degrees, though, may be less potent.
----------
moonshine, i forgot to add that through the quindecile aspects i see in your chart, sun, venus & uranus quindecile the MC - i see that you most likely have very strong tendencies to be very obsessive with work and your career.

with regards to your personal environment & life, your stellium in virgo plus the other planet in gemini that you have, saturn i think, all ruled by mercury probably strongly influences you in that area.

and with your moon in pisces, that's going to influence your idealism or spirituality strongly. believing in a perfect world, or dreaming of one, comes very easy to you.
---------

Definitely true. Sometimes I think of myself (unflatteringly) as a workhorse - but one who is only there physically. Mentally I am somewhere else on another planet!

Thanks Chrissym, its been..... eye opening.

posted October 27, 2004 05:20 PM              

yea, as far as the interpretations the quindecile book gives for the different quindecile aspects, im disappointed. i think the descriptions given are pat and formulaic. my intuitive interpretation of your 3 quindeciles to the midheaven indicate just someone who's probably obsessed with work, or doing a good job...the uranus aspect probably lends a desire to do something original and exciting in your job...the venus something pleasing or attractive (maybe?)...the sun-MC aspect probably just means work is very important to you. its important to do a good job. its important things be done WELL.

thats just my general interp.

happy eclipse!