posted November 01, 2004 06:17 PM              

What gets me is that he's religious! He believes in God (which cannot be proved) and science (which proves things with only your five senses), but will not believe in anything else. How can people be so selective in how they believe? It doesnt make sense to me. I mean, I beleive in God, I believe in aliens, ghosts, astrology and fairies in the garden. I also believe in the validity of all religions other than my own - not that I really BELIEVE in them, but I think they all rooted in some sort of truth - only long ago forgotten and mutated. No one can prove any of them anyway.

I cant deny scientific proof as that would be to deny my five senses, but I am loathe to give them too much credit as I think scientists f uck up the world too much.

Anyway i told him I'd do his chart and he agreed: basically only if he agreed with his chart might he change his mind, which is a fair enough comment. But I did his chart and.... I dont think its very flattering!! I dont want to give it to him as I dont know how he would take it - most people dont like hearing the negative about themselves, especially if they're not be ready to hear it - it could possibly do more damage than good. Plus it might turn him against astrology for good (not that I'm on a missionary converting-type zeal or anything!)

posted November 01, 2004 07:41 PM              

I wonder if he fishes?

I say this because most men do, or have fished at some point in their lives. Even if they don't fish, I sometimes use the following line of logic with them:

Me: Do you fish?
Them: Yes.
Me: Oh, so you would know all about and understand the tides then?
Them: Yes
Me: So what controls the tides?
Them: The moon.
Me: Ah, the moon. I see. You know, some people look at the moon like a planet.
Them: Really?
Me: Yes, so you really believe the moon controls the tides?
Them: Why of course it does.
Me: So if the moon is a planet and controls something on earth, isn't it then feasible that some of the other planets might also control things on earth?

They usually have no comeback or reply to this logic.

The best way to get them to believe (and this has to be done very early in the conversation, before they've told you much about themself) is to guess their star sign. I was sitting around a table with about a dozen guys and they were boohooing astrology and a lot of other things that I believed in. And no matter what I said, this one guy in particular was so obnoxious about it all. I took one good, long scorpion stare at him and said, "um, are you a gemini by any chance?" Luckily for me, I had guessed right (I don't even know why I thought he was a gemini, it just popped in my head, maybe it was my spirit guide helping out).

The guy started squirming in his seat. He wanted to know how I knew. And I just sat there with a huge grin on my face and said, oh there's a lot of things about you that I know that you would be surprised about. He hardly spoke for the rest of the time I was there. LOL.

posted November 01, 2004 08:19 PM              

I'm also good at guessing ppl's signs by their vibe, so that helps (as purple_scorp suggested).

I also love telling them about themselves, like I remember once this Virgo guy was being all snooty about astrology and I said, well.. "as a virgo, you're probably a bit of a neat freak"... and all the other guys cracked up laughing because he is so pedantic about the interior of his car and won't let them even have a drink in there, and they thought it was hilarious that I picked this quirk just by hi sign! LOL! It sparked this whole astrology conversation and everyone got into it, asking me about themselves and asking who gets along with who and what traits everyone has, it was great.

The other thing I do if someone is being mean about it is agree with them! Magazine astrology is just a parlour game, I agree with you! Did you know your "sign" is just where the sun is located? You have all these other planets and houses influencing you, so thats why, two Leo people are never the same... or you might have someone with their sun "sign" in Capricorn and but the rest of their chart is mostly Gemini, so that person is going to be more like a gemini that your average Capricorn sun"... that usually gets them then I ask for their birth time and all that and let them read about their chart on astro.com and they are always hooked after that, every time, heheh.

posted November 01, 2004 10:01 PM              

You are right to be cautious. This is what I would do.

First of all, keep it really short, like don't take more than 2 or 3 minutes. Sit down like you are very happy with what you found, and say, "You have nothing to worry about, you have a GREAT Chart."

He's going to feel much better about himself, almost without knowing why.

Then I would find one or two things which would tell him about someone ELSE who's in his life. In other words, how is it that astrology can tell you something about someone's mother, and father?

AAAHHHHHH!!!

So look at what Sign and especially House his Moon is in, it will describe his mother. And the same with the Sun, regarding his father. Keep it really short, and don't use ABSOLUTE language like, "You mother IS like this." That will sound too antagonistic. Say it like, "Your Chart indicates your mother might be the type who blah blah blah...". That way, when he agrees, HE'LL be the one confirming it, not you.

Then leave it at that and keep him wondering. If he tries to egg you for more information, just always find ways to get around it. At the same time, this will pique his curiousity, and keep him wanting more.

Then let nature take its course.

posted November 02, 2004 12:08 AM              

anyway, that's is enough proof astrogy is real.

posted November 02, 2004 01:23 AM              

"Astrology is a science in itself and contains an illuminating body of knowledge. It taught me many things, and I am greatly indebted to it. Geophysical evidence reveals the power of the stars and the planets in relation to the terrestrial. In turn, astrology reinforces this power to some extent. This is why astrology is like a life-giving elixir to mankind." - ALBERT EINSTEIN

Andrew "10 embarrassing questions" to ask astrologers and the rebuttles.

1. What is the likelihood that one-twelfth of the world's population is having the same kind of day?

That depends on how broadly you describe "the same kind of day". You seem to be referring to Sun Sign astrology that attempts to describes daily experience solely by sun sign. This is astrology at its lowest common denominator, even when those newspaper columns are written by qualified astrologers. Few of them are. A complete horoscope is much more personalized, considering the position of the Sun, Moon, and planets calculated to the minute of a degree at the moment of birth and from the perspective of the birthplace.

2. Why is the moment of birth, rather than conception, crucial for astrology?

Because, birth is what gives us a complete human being.

And as we've seen from thousands of years of empirical observation, it works. The time of birth is identifiable, and marks the beginning of life as an autonomous human being - unlike the moment of conception, which is rarely identifiable. (And as for when a zygote becomes a viable life form, this is a question that has gone back and forth on the whole question of abortion. Nobody has a clear answer, and it seems to be a philosophical, rather than a scientific, question about the very nature and meaning of the beginning of life.)

3. If the mother's womb can keep out astrological influences until birth, can we do the same with a cubicle of steak?

You can only be given birth once.

But if a cubicle of steak could be devised to provide full life support so that the individual inside had no need for independent breath, food, elimination, cleaning, etc. that might be an interesting experiment. But then a person living in such a vegetative state would not be able to make the choices or have the experiences that astrology is used to help with.

Actually the research of Michel Gauquelin shows astrological patterns within families. (I've seen this in my own work, and other astrologers see it regularly, but unlike our "anecdotal experience" Gauquelin has applied scientific standards of statistical methodology.) He sees this as suggesting that astrological influences may trigger the birth, so the child may well be susceptible to astrological influences in the womb well before birth.

4. If astrologers are as good as they claim, why aren't they richer?

If you're so smart, then why aren't you rich? And shouldn't every member of Mensa be a multi-millionaire? Many of us began the study of astrology as a spiritual pursuit rather than a commercial one. The field is predominant with people who consider philosophical and spiritual wealth far more important than money. Still, most of us are indeed richer than we would be without astrology, both financially and philosophically. There are many branches of astrology and very few astrologers use astrology for financial investments - usually because skills and interests lie in other fields. Some astrologers can see that they have no chart for making money, but may help those who do. As J. P. Morgan said: "Millionaires don't use astrologers. Billionaires do."

5. Are all horoscopes done before the discovery of the three outermost planets incorrect?

Was astronomy incorrect before the Hubble Telescope? Every body of knowledge that is worth anything is constantly expanding, gaining new information, re-evaluating old theories in light of new evidence. Certainly horoscopes including the three outermost planets contain more information.

6. Shouldn't we condemn astrology as a form of bigotry? Isn't refusing to date a Leo or hire a Virgo as bad as refusing to date a Catholic or hire a black person?

Bigotry is pre-judging a person by skin color, religion, gender, sexual orientation, national origin, or other factors that have nothing to do with the substance of his/her character. Astrology is a manner of assessing the substance of his/her character. A simplistic approach -- i.e. Aquarians are good people, Scorpios are evil -- is indeed a form of bigotry. A full chart analysis could actually help people into the jobs where they would be most satisfied and productive. (I might want a Virgo for an accountant, but not if s/he has a Sun-Neptune conjunction in the 6th house on the apex of a t-square between Jupiter and Mars -- although that person might make an excellent EMT.)

As for whom you choose to date, that's a highly personal matter. If you don't want to date Catholics, I'm one RC who won't snap your mackerel, but respect your right to choose your dates as you wish. Now Fraknoi is going from telling us how we should think to how we should love.

Moreover he repeats the same questions ad nauseum and ignores the answers. This is as narrow-minded a prejudice as any form of religious bigotry. Besides which, it is the opposite of science.

7. Why do different schools of astrology disagree so strongly with each other?

There are disagreements within any discipline of knowledge. Within a large group of astronomers there will also be disagreements. It is this writer's opinion, though, that those sciences which have been supported by universities, governments, and large corporations have had the great opportunities and funding to test more fully many theories, some of which have been proven wrong, some right, some still in contention. Astrologers have no such support and rely more on personal, indeed, anecdotal experience. Also as a field where there is no established consistent code of credentials and protocols there is inevitably more variation of thought. Some of us regard this diversity as a great opportunity; some consider it a gateway to sloppy research, theorizing, and interpretation.

8. If the astrological influence is carried by a known force, why do the planets dominate?

Astrological influence is not carried by a known force. If it were, the scientific community would have no choice but to accept its validity.

9. If astrological influence is carried by an unknown force, why is it independent of distance?

How can one judge the properties of an unknown force?

10. If astrological influences don't depend on distance, why is there no astrology of stars, galaxies, and quasars?

There is, although it is practiced by a small minority of astrologers. But more to the point, we don't know to what extent distance is or is not a factor in astrological influence. I subscribe to the theory that astrology deals exclusively with influences of our Sun, Moon, and the planets, an interactive matrix of influences entirely within our solar system. The stars of the zodiac are only markers -- relatively unmoving guides against which we can measure planetary, solar, and lunar motion.

posted November 02, 2004 04:26 AM              

I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, but that was my first response to this...

posted November 02, 2004 04:56 PM              

Im not going to bother giving him his chart as I think he has forgotten the subject anyway...

posted November 02, 2004 10:23 PM              

moonshine, well, maybe if the situation arises again, (not with him but with the next person) ask them to disprove astrology, rather than you trying to prove it. I wonder how that conversation would go?

I get that you don't want to bash them on their head with your beliefs but I know for me, that if I'm passionate about something, I'm proud of it and I get an insatiable urge to share something about that with others.

Really, nothing can beat guessing their star sign....it gives you a real buzz and puts them off edge....

No I'm not nasty, maybe it's the sting in my tail?