posted December 07, 2004 03:03 PM            

Well..this comes after a long talk I had with Mr. Taurus about love, engagement, marriage and commitment.

Being a Sag, I realize that we are a bit hard to take. We make some wonder if we are every really present - or when we are present, how long before we bolt when things get bad?

Being with a Taurus, I am amazed at his staying power, his determination and his overall commitment to everything he does.

But both signs have the same problems - we are both vulnerable and we both have fears.

We talked last night about our engagment and marriage. He confessed that he is afraid of me leaving- because in some of our early arguments I wanted to bolt. Some of that was my insecurities and some of that was my Aries moon wanting to get out of the conflict before it blew up more than we could tolerate. Given the chance, if I am really angry, I will lash out and say things to cut the person in two..better to leave than ruin a relationship.

In the same respect, I felt like he was trying to test me- push me to inhuman boundries to test if I still loved him as much as I said I did and to see if I would be secure enough to stay through it all.

Stupid game huh? Well, I let him know: yes, I can be highstrung, hype and seem easy to leave..but that is not the case. On some level all those are true- it is survival -but what is not seen how that I am severely honest, loyal and I love intensly. But, I do hold back a bit, while I watch from the outside - just as he tests to make sure I will not leave. He does acknowledge this and he loves how I take care of him and the house (he takes very good care of me too- maybe that is why he gets scared..of losing his security)

He wants to get married, but being in the Army he wants to wait until about year before he gets out (which is in June 2006). He wants this because the Army is an entity that demands to be number 1 in his life (I have to admire him for his commitment and loyalty). He also feels that marriage and family should be number 1 and his wife is to be his top priority.

It doesn't make sense to me- but then again - he once had a little girl. She was a precious little Pisces and while he was in Germany she was in an accident that caused her to lapse into a coma. The Army would not let him leave and she passed away. He vowed never to go through that again.

A part of me understands, another part of me is like "Hey, you underestimate me" Or I ask "Then your love for me is not complete right now, because you are saying that should something happen to me, I am not as important as I would be or the hurt would not be as bad as if we were married".

He bellows "NO THAT IS NOT TRUE: In my heart I am married to you, I don't want to be with anyone else, you are my every thing, you are my soul mate"....

Last night I said, " I think I understand what you mean because I can never totally commit myself- give all of myself until I am married."

He tensed up.."You mean you are not as committed to me?" thinking that means I can be with another...

I said "You are not understanding me. What I am saying is that when I marry, I give all of me to my husband, there is nothing I hold back because we made a bond and made it legal. I do that because I still hold marriage as an ideal, a committment that surpasses everything." - Also, being a Sag it's like "Hey buddy..I am giving up my independence - I am telling you I don't need to roam the fields anymore alone, but we can roam them together".

He was very sad...

I tried to tell him it was really no different that how he felt. I tried to explain to him that in my last marriage, I tried everything to make it work. I stayed in it years longer than other people ever would have. I even had my very religious mother telling me to get out of that loveless / sexless marriage. But, I had made a promise and I would try anything to save it before ditching it.

So my Sag perspective is that "While I give him my heart, my love and most of me while we are engaged, I cannot give all of me until we are married". Especially if he has doubts about whether I will take off or not.

When I said "Look at our last few disagreements..and Look at how we just made it through the biggest Crises to date (his possible year deployment to Iraq). In all of the big scary things, I was by your side. I was your unrelenting support and even when the worst looked like it was approaching, I had stated I will wait that year for you to come back.

He said "Yes, I know...but sometimes the small things make you want to leave".

UGH!!!!

posted December 07, 2004 03:30 PM            

While I cannot answer your question, I just wanted to mention that I see myself in you with everything you just said about yourself. That's how I love - with every part of myself and nothing less than that. Until then - I am independent and free.

posted December 07, 2004 03:53 PM              

Commitment can be broken, regardless of the nature of the vow, be it legal, or just spoken...even just assumed. It's more complicated to remove oneself from the situation once the vows are spoken, mind you, so it would be smart not to take those vows if there is any doubt. But as for the level of commitment - between two people in engagement vs in matrimony. I think that depends intirely on the people. Actually, on an individual level.

posted December 07, 2004 06:26 PM              

Pidaua -

That's a really good question, and thank you for sharing that interaction between a Centaur & a Bull.

Engagement means you are PLANNING to get married. Does not mean you ARE married.

Since you are already living together it can make things even more confusing because you are playing the role of wife in many other ways.

posted December 07, 2004 07:00 PM              

I think that's what he wants to have, and he does. The talking and sharing is part of commitment, He has to really admire the way you are capable of seeing marriage as an important step.

I can understand the fear of the partner fleeing, it's a big one, but I understand better not wanting to ruin a relationship by saying the right thing, being peaceful.

I have been too peaceful in the past and had good relationships. Better to get hurt or hurt a little, but I know I am not there yet. Better to have a great one with some upsets, waiting, small hurts, then several mediocre ones down the line.

The Taurus has to be patient, and secretly taurus is not that patient. Sounds good, like you are both holding your hearts, everything good will happen.

Don't let him worry so much! He is worried about hidden dramas, hidden agendas!

If you two look forward to cuddling, and see everything good around the relationship, then you don't have to worry. Seems like the major emotion for Taurus IS worry, after love.

Tell him I know you are a pure soul.
and I'm a worried Taurus too.

Take Care,
Natasha

posted December 07, 2004 08:16 PM            

Thank you so much for posting..I also would love to get more perspectives on how astro signs deal with those levels of commitment.

Blue - It's good to hear it from another Saggies point of view. I think, at times, people underestimate how much the Archer can love- that it is so very intense - even when we seem so jovial on the surface. I think what is harder for other signs is when we tend to "go inside ourselves" when we tend to overanalyze to get the other person's perspective.

Night - I really don't have a clue what you are trying to say, but I really appreciate you taking the time to post. What sign are you and how to you view commitments? Even at your age I am sure you have an idea

Lioneye..Damn girl- I miss you so much- it has been ages!!! You hit on something key, which is how different people view commitments in various ways. I think it is important that both people are on the same page regarding marriage and living together. For example, if one wanted marriage and the other was only willing to live together - I would tend to believe it will never work unless one compromises.

AJ!!! How are you? Yeah..relationships can be confusing..how did you and your Sag deal with issues such as this? Did you both see commitment as equals or did you have different ideals?

Natasha,

Thank you for calling me a pure soul. I have to say, this man has really slowed me down to appreciate things in life I would run from before. Sometimes I forget that it is the Taurus nature to worry (especially one with a Virgo moon and Taurus rising). The exterior of the bull (male and female) seems so stable and stoic (much like the Sag seems to only care about fun and games).

Talking..talking..talking..it is so IMPORTANT..I do love our cuddle times- when it's late at night or early in the morning and we just talk and laugh. I never shared that with another before him.

Future - WOW....you hit the nail on the head. I used to run like that too...for two basic reasons- 1) if I was angry and didn't want to hurt the other with my words 2) If I was afraid it wouldn't work out and I would be heartbroken / disappointed. ...

posted December 07, 2004 09:04 PM            

Close..Actually, I am a late Virgo ascendant with Saturn in the 8th house and my moon / chiron is in the 7th house. I also have my sun in the 4th house.

posted December 07, 2004 10:16 PM              

Your post is great, you seem to be a ' heart on sleeve ' individual. I don't have any astrological knowledge in regard to the views on engagment vs marriage and, the level of commitment in such. I, really, think that this view is a, completely, individual based idea that, is molded and formed or, conforms, to what would be considered ' normal ', due to widely different environmental influences. Not to say that, as we grow, we don't add our own experiences to it but, this is only building on the base stability or, lack of it. My parents divorced when I was 14. It was a welcome event and, long overdue, in my opinion. My brother, however, was effected, very deeply, by it. He is 2 years older than me and, we are both Mercury babies, he is a Virgo I, am Gemini. I saw my Husband in my first class of our first day of high school, this following the recent seperating that had been taking place in my home life, over the summer. I was 14 and, never felt totally, compromised at not, yet, having the ' delightful ' experience of adolescent feelings for another. To spare the ' long version ', by 16, I left home to begin my journey, not by myself but, with him. My brother, he lived with our Dad, until the age of 27. He moved into a home that he and his, then girlfriend of, merely months, had purchased. My dear Bro has a tender soul that, had built up a version of The Great Wall. He was anti marriage, anti children( for fear of inflicting those great pains that, his wall now ' healed '). So, even though we grew up in the same environment, he took with him only pain and, divorce left a great void of trust in others and in love. I took notes, for lack of a better description.... I always knew that our parents had love in and, of each other. It was never something that anyone on the outside could percieve though. With that and, other influences, throughout childhood, I knew that, love, even in that, it brings trying, difficult aspects, it must give and compromise to aide in healing, so that, delicate, balence, is found. Of course, the willingness and selflessness of the parties involved, being where the final fate lies, was a blatently obvious fact, in my views. By the time my Brother had ' flown the coup ', my Husband and I had already welcomed the births of our 2 kiddos and, built a solid foundation through 9 years of the rough and tumbles and utter blissful peace of our journey as love living. However, my Brother became a husband BEFORE, I was a bride.... my Husband and I will celebrate our 2nd anniversary on the 12th of this month,... on paper anyway,...... in my love and commitment that is, both given as well as recieved, we will be, very happily, celebrating our life, as one, for the 12th consecutive year because, from the very moment that, we put our trust in our hearts whispers, commitment was a given and, from this, the faith in and, of US, has given strength, to change and grow in, not only our life, more importantly, in love. I believe that this is achieved, with or without a nifty piece of paper that, in all reality, only serves the purpose of lining the pockets of greed and, even as it sits, filed away neatly, it holds in it the dreams of those who, patiently wait and, secretly hope, for your faith in love to fail. My heart lives in his, not in the ink of my signiture.

Crap! There I go again! Another windy novel. I hope that it gives some use, somehow, anyway.

posted December 08, 2004 01:44 AM              

I'm hanging in there. Getting closer to finding my private island in life.

posted December 08, 2004 08:25 AM              

I have no doubt that you and your Taurus can make it work because it's obvious that you have a deep connection and commitment to one another. I think you are just both confused because, in some ways you've compartmentalized the stages in which you will give yourself... and for very good reasons, none of which take away from your love for him... but it's idealized and intellectualized the progression to marriage and how you will give yourself. Your Taurus is much more emotionally driven and doesn't understand or can't separate that your deep love for him is the same regardless, but in your mind, in the way you wish to live your life... you need that official commitment before you can give yourself fully. He's confusing that for you not loving him wholly, which is not the same thing.

Having been married before, I understand totally where you're coming from. Marriage and the giving of yourself and sharing your life has very little to do with LOVE... and much more to do with practicality, agreement... marriage is a treaty, if you will!

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's not that he's a Taurus at all, but I just find people who haven't been married before think it's all about love, love will save the day, love makes the world go round, if we love each other everything will be ok... and those who have been married before know it's much more practical... they seem to be able to separate love from the marriage... because love is grand, but it's not going to make or break your marriage, you know? Taurus is very passionate and possesive, I don't think it would be easy for him to make that separation and realize your love for him isn't equated by your ideals when it comes to marriage... your ideals are your ideals... but love is different.

As for your question... I'm pretty much with you... I can love you more than anything in the world, but once I'm married to you, that has merged our lives and then you get everything I can give... For me, it's not possible to give everything I have until I am married. It's almost like marriage is the key that unlocks this other, deeper realm of giving. It's just not there to give without marriage. Marriage is sacred.

posted December 08, 2004 03:57 PM            

I loved your story. I also come from a divorced family (Cancer mom / Cappy dad) which occured when I was 12 years old. My younger Saggie brother (Scorp moon) was 8 years old. He took all the pain inside and yet still clung to my mother and grandmother. He is a great guy, he ended up married before me and has a wondeful little boy and another on the way.

I chose a different path. I took the hurt and turned it into drive and determination. I was hell bent on never allowing emotions to cloud what I could do or become- so my perfectionistic tendencies came out full force. I pushed myself to move out on my own, get my college degrees and move into a fast paced career. I had vowed NEVER to allow love to slow me down and NEVER be dependent on another person. In essence, I became everything my mother was not because I saw her as weak. I had it in my head when I would allow myself to have an emotional connection and when I would keep my nose to the grindstone.

It was difficult because I am very social and loved going to parties / dating....etc..but as soon as a guy would get close- I was gone.

As we get older (and experience our first Saturn return) we realize that there are more important things. I didn't get married until I was 30 years old- then ended up divorced.

As far as my heart on my sleeve? It is so much easier for me to write how I feel that articulate the emotions. There have been times when I have been accused of being to logical when expressing my feelings or intellectualizing my emotions, but that is how I deal with them.. But I am learning.

AquarianGirl,

Hey..thanks for the post. You captured so much of what I was feeling. Both Mr. T and I have been married before. His marriage was when he was 19 years old (EEEEK) and he had his heart broken by a Sag.

You are right in the way he loves- he loves fully and totally and doesn't see the line between committment and marriage. Like you, I see it as a bit different. My love doesn't change, it is a matter of what I will give of myself.

I look at it this way- which may come across as cold..but really it is more about independence.

I can live on my own and I have done that and I enjoy that freedom. I don't need a relationship to validate who I am or to satisfy a lonliness inside. I DO value relationships though, so if on my path I stumble upon the love of my life, then I will take that next path and see where it takes me. When the time is right, I feel that a relationship should take the next step and make a legal commitment- because it seems logical and both parties merge everything..right? If not, then why should I give up my independance and freedom to "play" house? What does it really benefit when I don't feel that I need someone to take care of me and why should I take care of someone else?

I know that sounds cold, but that is not how I mean it. To me is shows that my love for someone is unselfish and not cluttered by the "need" to have someone just exist with me, but we have "chosen" to be together.

posted December 08, 2004 08:57 PM            

The guy I'm dating is a Virgo. Do you find yourself drawn to earth guys? I have tons of Virgo and Taurus friends (mostly male) and lots of guys I've dated have had heavy Capricorn influences.

You and I seem to have a lot in common. I can totally relate to what you said about writing out how you feel rather than expressing yourself verbally. I tend to talk about my feelings a lot but when I do I seem to intellectualize them. However, I also write lots of letters and they're usually very sappy!

I find it very hard to settle down because I feel like I really need someone to understand me and my emotional nuances. It's a lot to ask, I know, and I try to tell myself that this isn't necessary for me to be happy, but I can't seem to get past it. I'm actually kind of going through this right now and it confuses the heck out of me! I'm afraid I could lose a great relationship over it. You're right... relationships are confusing! (Although I feel like I make them more so than necessary!)

posted December 08, 2004 10:46 PM              

You are not human lay-away.

I don't care what excuses he hands you about "we're already married in our hearts" he's trying to have his cake and eat it too.

If he want's you to give him stability and security- then he should give it to you.

If he realy wants to lock down the deal and insure that you aren't going to go anywhere, then he should have no problem marrying you.

That's what marriage is FOR. Binding a couple together, legally and financially.

At least he isn't giving you the old "I'm waiting until we can afford a dream wedding," excuse. I hear that one a LOT. The guy thinks it'll make him sound romantic, rather than just uncomitted.

posted December 08, 2004 11:40 PM            

I do seem to settle down with the earthy types -and if they are fire / air they usually have a Taurus rising (about 90% of my relationships have a Taurus rising..LOL)..

LeLay,

posted December 09, 2004 02:53 PM            

NO! In fact, I don't have any idea how that would have gotten there... I've never even looked up that kind of material! Thank you for bringing it to my attention... any ideas how this could have happened?

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!

(It's kind of funny, but I am concerned about how it got there and who would have done it!)