posted February 01, 2005 04:50 PM              

Many women who don't have children enjoy looking after animals or plants as a substitute. I don't even enjoy doing that, and will try to get out of it whenever necessary. It's weird, I love taking natural objects apart and drawing and painting them, but I don't like looking after them. My Aqua reckons I'm a freak of nature, he says women are supposed to be programmed to be nurturers. I'm actually concerned that he's right, not because I would want to be a mother, but because it makes me seem like a rather warped person in general. (Incidentally, please be honest if you think this is so. I am not looking for sympathy, just an explanation.)

The word "family" makes me run for the hills, I see people having trouble with elderly parents for one reason and another, and am (probably rather shamefully) grateful that I don't communicate with my own. I see my peers caving into "parental expectations" that they felt bound to honour, despite strong feelings to the contrary, having children and moaning about how awful it is. To me, the word "family" denotes "responsibility" - another word that makes me cringe. (I have an empty 4th house, and positively run from the Cancer style of mothering.)

I also hate my mother and mother-in-law, with a vengeance. I did ask myself the question of why I hated them so much tonight. The reasons seemed to be firstly, because they hated ME from the word go, and because they each saw me as a rival for the "man" in their lives (in my mother's case, my father; in my MIL's case, my husband). Secondly, I found them two-faced, and rather limited in their thinking. I honestly don't know that it's good to have so much hatred inside me. It makes me ill. Why do I hate so much? Is there any astrological placement that could point to these rather extreme feelings?

I feel - and possibly am - extremely screwed up. I don't know if this is something that will ever improve during my lifetime. The thing is, "do I want it to"? Could it be viewed as a positive thing as well as a negative? I do channel the aggression into other areas, so I do make constructive and creative use of it. But every now and then I want to blow up.
(N.B. I do feel very blue right now, but it could be hormonal.)

LOL
AriesTiger
Sun/Merc/Chiron in 8th (Aries)
Mars/Saturn in 10th (Gemini)
Moon/Venus/Jupiter in 6th (Pisces)
Uranus in 2nd (Libra)
Neptune in 3rd (Sag)
Pluto in 1st (Libra)
Ascendant in Virgo

posted February 01, 2005 07:02 PM              

First, I would'nt think that you are some kind of ' freak of nature ', though, I do agree with Mr. Aqua about woman being pushed in the direction of nurturing/mothering... I NEVER wanted to have kids, never thought or, played out the ' princess gown, happily ever after, with a white picket fence,.... basically, not very ' girlish'. I have always had some four legged's of one kind or another but, mostly cats; because of their independence. At 17, I was still adament, that kids were not a part of existance that I felt compelled to experience. Maternal, was NOT a discriptive used to give an idea of my personality! In fact, even AFTER we welcomed our Son ( my Aries ), I was TERRIFIED, because I had not a shred of ' instinct '. I am learning motherhood, even still and, now have a Daughter as well!! My boy will be 9 in April and, even with that many years, so far; I have the rest of my life left loaded with the lessons of this, being ' Mommy '. I have my moments; the ones that I want to change my name for, like, 5 minutes! The ones they call, or used to anyway, Calgon Moments. Uuugh! As much as I would like to write more, I am being rushed to get over to my friends to help her out, so, just know this: You, AriesTiger, you are NOT a freak!

posted February 01, 2005 07:18 PM              

Okay lets see, I definitely don't think your a freak of nature at all. Saying women are supposed to be maternal is like saying men are supposed to be macho, strong egotist...we know there are those teddy bear guys that defy those rules thankfully. Roles based on gender are soo freakin stupid because we're all so different based on experiences and conditioning. Maybe many girls are maternal because their mothers were with them and showed them thats how they are supposed to be. Your mother didn't seem to show you this and maybe other parts of your upbringing didn't encourage it to develop. How old are you? that may have a lot to do with it, maybe you still want to be a child as you didn't get to be cared for and nurtured the way children need. Do you have other siblings? and if so how was your mother with them? sorry if I'm getting to personal..but I am genuinely interested in trying to help. I'm studying psychology because I like helping people with their problems so much. Anyways I think it has a lot to do with your own childhood and maybe the maternal "instinct" is in fact a condition your taught. I know other women who aren't maternal too and don't ever want kids. So your not a freak at all. Don't buy those stupid stereotypes. I don't anyone is really "girly" and "manly" by nature..those are just roles given to us.

How are you with children? When you see babies do you get mushy inside? Maybe by not being shown much affection, you don't know how to give it..maybe (I'm asking not sayng) I have a friend who's really popular tons of friends and seems like she'd be affectionate, but when it comes down to it, she says shes terrified of showing guys her emotions and being affectionate even with girlfriends. When I see her with her family, its obvious why, the family is so distant and no one hugs each other or says I love ever. I think we're also taught how to be affectionate by family at first, but we can learn it more and more with someone we love later in life. So sorry if I assumed you were affectionate, is that part of it..or is it just caring for something?

posted February 01, 2005 08:05 PM              

You don't have to prove anything to yourself, if they did not like you. That is not hate really, it's simply seeking a more loving life.

Just because you are in between is no reason to be down on yourself ariestiger!

You are very loving,
more loving than most,
and I dislike my mother very much too,
Moon/8th

Natasha

posted February 01, 2005 08:49 PM              

and if given a chance wouldn't change a thing.....(hold on, let me rethink that for a sec., j/k)

I could list at least 20 people off the top of my head that were adament about not having children and worried about those darn "maternal instincts" and who have become wonderful parent(s) who would swear they never thought they had it in them to do so. So ya know..........don't worry so much about it.

Now, for the hatred...yeah, sweetie, that is something that will do you harm. Astrology teaches us how and why we are so different, so why hate, just accept and let go. Do you really want to spend another lifetime with these people? hmm, think about it

posted February 01, 2005 09:03 PM              

quote:

---

It's weird, I love taking natural objects apart and drawing and painting the

---

RE: nurturing.....you have more than you think you do.

AND...whoa, whoa, whoa........re: Mr. Aqua telling you that you're a freak of nature...........I sincerely hope he said that jokingly..............cuz, if he didn't he needs to apologize, that was just wrong, you don't tell another human being that.

okey-dokey.......enuf said

posted February 02, 2005 06:29 AM              

As a child I wasn't actively pushed in the direction of motherhood, probably too much the other way. I wasn't allowed to use the cooker or washing-machine, not even when I was living at home before my marriage at the age of 23. My mother had a lot of domesticity rammed down her throat at home and I think subconsciously she was trying to steer me away from it. However, it didn't encourage me to be able to look after myself very well. My cooking is still totally hit-and-miss.
My mother used to have tons of animals at home, and whenever we got a new one, she used to fuss over it like crazy, watching it all day and talking about it non-stop (it used to bore my Dad and I to bits). It was interesting how her attitude towards me became ever more hostile as I got older, apparently when I was a baby she was crazy about me...but as soon as I started to develop my own opinions and mind about things...that was something that needed to be stopped, clamped down on, and of course the older I got, the more difficult it got, because, I guess, having created me, she couldn't stand being out of control of me. She actually had a pathological problem with anyone who had a different opinion from her, they either had to be psychologically annihilated or ignored (she was a great needler). If one said yes to everything she said, and tried to please her, however, she did not respect them. It was an unwinnable situation. She did say to me once that she'd "rather have animals than have (me)", and threatened that one day I'd "lose her as a friend". Quite frankly, it sounded like I already had. I am an only child, my mother did not originally want children at all, she came from a family of four. After her father died, and she was told she would probably have to have a hysterectomy in x number of years' time, she "succumbed" at the age of 33. She said that she made up her mind she was going to have one child only, and that it would be the most perfect child possible. She told this to Mr. Aqua, and he said he found that attitude scary, with overtones of Frankenstein's monster. My mother is very keen on methods, rule-books and gurus. (Sun/Merc in Sag, Venus/Mars in Scorp, Asc in Leo). Unfortunately my father didn't help by having an affair when I was 18 months old. I think both of them blamed me, though I refuse to shoulder any of that blame.

My mother's opinions were also questionable. Technically we were supposed to be vegetarians, but she made me eat some sausage at my grandmother's once.
"Mother," I hissed, "we're not supposed to eat sausage."
"Eat it up," she said, "you've got to please your grandmother."
So I did, and my father commented on what I had done afterwards when he took me for a walk. I told him why, and he said, yeah, my grandmother had to be kept happy, and that she didn't "know" anything about vegetarianism.
???
Hang on, does this make sense to you? No, I didn't think so. It didn't to me at 7. Principles are principles, I thought years later, why the heck should they have waived them just to please my grandmother?
And then the two of them went around proudly boasting that I'd "never eaten meat"??? I was seething inside, I thought, you couple of LIARS, you know that's not true.
Once my mother got to the stage where only 2 of her chickens were left, she used to treat them like pets. We had fox trouble, there was a vixen with cubs nearby. My mother had plenty of time to kill at home, so she was out every 2 seconds putting the chickens in, out, in, out, in, out. She used to house them in separate rabbit hutches, and put them out separately, as they couldn't coexist peacefully, so it was a bit like musical chairs. In the end my parents contacted the council and had the foxes gassed. I confronted my mother about this, since the two of them both strongly oppose foxhunting, and said, you're supposed to be a vegetarian, you're supposed to like animals, why did you do this, this is hypocrisy.
"You don't understand," said my mother. "It was a case of me against the enemy."
(Hello? Was I hearing right? Or was it the ravings of a lunatic?)

My mother also used to encourage me to eat a lot. She did prepare healthy food, but nevertheless, she hardly ate anything as she was anorexic. She had long-standing anorexia and depression for abut 30 years, for a time she used to just go to bed all day, in between taking me to, and fetching me from, school. My father got all his calories from beer, and, I suspect, another woman's cooking, so he never ate anything at home either. They used to complain like mad about how much I ate and said it was expensive, also restricted the number of baths I took and my mother only did the laundry every 2 or 3 weeks. They wouldn't buy me a change of school uniform, so you can imagine...the same shirt...UGH. But they liked splashing out on designer clothes, fast cars and horses for themselves. I think my mother just existed to be beautiful (or, her idea of beauty). She did not go out to work or run any sort of business from home. She had no friends, and hardly left the house except to walk the dog or go on a shopping trip once a week. She used to send me downtown (a 5-minute walk) to get stuff for her from the town centre, as she wouldn't go out of the house otherwise (without her hair properly done). She had an extremely high opinion of herself as a so-called "intelligent" person, but was actually quite stupid. For example, she used to say to me, "or*l sex is DISGUSTING, it all came in in the 1960s, you know." "Yeah, Mum," I thought, "that's why you see depictions of it in Ancient Greek and Indian art." Sorry, but when someone that stupid tries to preach to me, I just have to walk away.
She hated men and consistently told me how disgusting certain aspects of sex were. She and my father did not have relations for 5 years, they didn't sleep in the same bed...so I think my Dad (another Aries) got desperate and started having an affair with another woman. Both of my parents tried to keep me away from boys/men in a big way, they treated me like a stupid baby. They had both been abused as children, so to some extent I can understand their wanting to protect me...but they were quite extreme. I wrote something in my diary about a boy at school once, and my mother, who was a great one for going through my things, found it and lambasted me. It was in such small writing I never thought she'd be able to read it - but she took a magnifying glass. I didn't have a relationship until I was 23.

My mother used to have arguments with me as a teenager where she followed me round the house copying my every move. I used to tell her to stop and she wouldn't, so eventually I got mad and swore at her. Straightaway she went to the phone, as cool as a cucumber, and told my father to come home and "do something about me". My father used to beat me with a cane, and on one occasion broke my nose. He was still beating me at the age of 23, when the worm turned and I (inadvertently) broke HIS nose, because I got so mad. I really felt bad about that, I didn't feel sorry enough, and told him I was sorry. "You broke my nose, though," I said.
"I didn't break your nose," he said, stiffly. "YOU broke your nose."
Lies, lies, lies...
Two schools I was at picked up on the physical stuff, as I was distressed and totally unable to get on with anyone most of the time. When they called my parents in to talk to them, my mother refused to go, and my father glossed the situation over, as if nothing was happening. So then the school came back on me and said I had a problem. I did, too. I was a total wreck.

I have mercurial moods, they yo-yo up and down, they always have, but at least Mr. Aqua seems to realise they're JUST MOODS. But I am totally turned off the whole parenthood/motherhood thing.

posted February 02, 2005 10:28 AM              

Your first post reflects so much Eighth House Aries energy. The whole topic embraced. Do you see it? Read it again.

posted February 02, 2005 12:52 PM              

I am also an Aries Tiger! However, with venus in Taurus in the 4th - I nurture! As a matter of fact, after reading your posts, I want to hug you and help you and talk to you! You are a precious, precious Aries Tiger/Child, and I want you to be happy. How can you be happy? What makes you happy? You have to find a way to release your hate in order to find the peace within yourself, which leads to happiness. Aries Tiger, some how you must find a way to accept your parents and mother-in-law, even with all of their faults. It is possible. You can keep yourself in a safe place and at a distance - in a loving way. You can control your thoughts, feelings, and reactions to them. Remember, their actions are based on their experiences. Some of their experiences might not have been so good. Almost all parents could be accused of damaging their children in some way. If you can forgive them, you'll get better. Try to not focus on the mistakes they have made. Remember something good about your upbringing. Focus on that. Everytime you start to feel hatred or anger, replace those feeling with the good memory. Train yourself to think differently. It can be done. You can break the pattern.

I think you need to nurture yourself. Be kind and good to yourself. You can be the way you are. You don't have to be a mother. You don't have to love animals, or water plants. You are good to go right now. Give yourself some loving - get your hair cut, exercise, get some new clothes, go out to lunch, read a good book. Do what you like, and don't feel guilty about it.

You are an Aries; you will be okay!

posted February 02, 2005 05:41 PM              

Is it really just an argument with Mr. Aquarius, and why are you giving up all your power to him again? Don't do it.

Blame My PMS, but he sounds like he's being a real JERK. You do so much for people and he is not being giving, warm, caring-the ideal man. He is being selfish, resentful, and peevish.

Thanks btw for the Borage seed information, I am taking those now.

I again agree on your idea of independence, I don't know what kind you need but gradually think about separating yourself emotionally from MR. AQUA"s idea of an ideal woman.

That's not you.

Try writing down the adjectives for an ideal man, and see if you match. If that's the case, you are being the man and the woman right now. How can you be nurturing when you dont' have a real man as a counterpart? Try writing down the negative and positive adjectives for masculine and feminine and see where you fit in and where Mr. Aqua fits in.

Is he
Toxic
Cruel
Resentful
Rough
Vain
Mean
Hateful
Vindictive

or Strong
Assertive
Warm
Caring
Tough

What about you?
Are you Strong
Assertive
Warm
Caring?

If so maybe you see that as bad because you don't have any time to be the woman?
You are too busy being the parent to your mate, to take care of yourself. The Man is draining you all the time, but it's up to you to gather some sort of independence.

Otherwise, your idea of the right kind of man for you will be damaged and you may end up with some else like Mr. Aqua. Keep focused on positive mental images of masculinity and femininity.

You do not need to hang out with vindictive, tough, cruel and hateful sounding men.

posted February 02, 2005 06:02 PM              

I also lack much of a nurturing instinct and don't know if I'll ever embrace motherhood but I'm trying to develop it and I am deeply attached to my wonderful cat, who is treated better than many children.

Give yourself time, and if your compatibility with your partner is linked to motherhood... perhaps you have something else to evaluate.

posted February 03, 2005 01:06 AM              

Have you always felt you wouldn’t have kids, or is this just how you have recently been feeling?

In all honesty, I’ve come to realize, that some people just simply cannot imagine a life without having children. It's not that they are trying to change you so much, by telling you, “women are supposed to be programmed to be nurturers” or “all women are supposed to have kids” (which is what I hear) it's more that they are trying to rectify your choices in their own minds. Tell that to Mr. Aqua next time he brings up the topic... (Who’s the freak of nature now? )

There’s nothing wrong with not having children, and it doesn’t make you any less of a women if you chose not to have them.

You are not a freak or nature, nor are you warped...

posted February 03, 2005 05:47 AM              

Is he strong? Emotionally he is controlled. Is this a form of strength? He is very stoical. Again, I don't know whether that can necessarily be called strength.
Assertive, tough - NO. Not in the slightest.
Warm, caring - I think he is quite caring underneath, he cooks and buys necessary things for me, and does cuddle me spontaneously, quite often, when he's in a "good" phase.
I am definetely strong, assertive, warm (affectionate) and I do care about him and what he makes of his life, this is why I try to push him.
!!!

posted February 03, 2005 10:24 AM              

I also have Aries sun conjunct Aries moon, but in the 3rd. We are "one"!

Aries Tiger -

I thought I never wanted children, and had them a little later in life. Why did I decide to have children? My doctor told me I would have great difficulty getting pregnant. With that comment, I immediately found a specialist and got myself pregnant. Guess I don't like people telling me I can't do something (mars in aries, maybe?). Now I am TOO much of a mother. I border on a Kathy Gifford kind of mother. Remember her? (constantly talking, bragging, focusing on her kids? - bordering on obnoxious?) That is me, I am embarrassed to say.

I am also a mamma to an angel and spiritual guide type of dog - a pit bull - got him because someone wrapped him up in barbed wire and threw him out of his car window. SPCA saved him. This pitbull is probably my true soul mate.

Any way, never say never. You never know how you might change or grow in your life. Meanwhile, now is not the time for children.
You haven't been married for very long. That first year of marriage is THE WORST. At least it was for me! There is a lot of adjusting to do, and a lot of Cinderella fairy tale dreams to let go of. Truth is, even in marriage, you must be responsible for making yourself happy. We cannot expect our spouses to pick up the slack of our parents' upbringing mistakes - affection, $, etc.

Like I said earlier. You will figure it all out. You don't have to rush to make decisions. Just let it all unfold naturally.

Love,
Key