posted July 16, 2005 09:55 PM            

Talk to me (hoho!) -- what sign is it in? Let me know and I'll post the other half of the interp. No planet is "bad" or "good" -- Astrology is just a way of recognizing POTENTIAL. What you DO with that potential is up to YOU!

Here's Saturn in Pisces/12th House from Liz Greene's "Saturn - A New Look At An Old Devil"

quote:

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Saturn in Pisces and the twelfth house
The twelfth house, as the last in the circle and lying hidden behind the Ascendant or outward behaviour, symbolises both endings and beginnings. It is the end because it represents the sacrifice which must ultimately be made of the conscious personality as a separation unit. From a more abtruse point of view it represents the beginning because it refers to those causes from the past which, operating from birth and below the level of consciousness, draw to us those situations which require that we lose ourselves and die to be reborn into group consciousness. From water all life comes, says the Koran, and this house, reflecting Pisces and Neptune, the ancient god of the waters, suggests that plane where life, undifferentiated and without individuality, first sprang and where, wise with the lessons of individual consciousness, it must eventually return. Even shorn of its more esoteric associations, the twelfth house refers to isolation and submission, and to the dissolution of the personality.
This is often called the house of karma, based on the idea that planets found here are in some way denied normal expression and are often operating as unconscious rather than conscious drives. It is also called the house of self-undoing because isolation, incarceration, helplessness, and bondage are often the lot of the person with a heavily active twelfth house—literal or symbolic—and it is his own actions which draw these conditions to him. Whether a long past is considered or not, the inference is certainly present that the ego, built through the efforts of the previous eleven houses and signs, must eventually be laid on the altar of sacrifice so that the man may become a functioning part of a larger whole and give of his wisdom and energy for the good of the group. For the man who refuses to comprehend this, it is the house of hospitals and prisons, for only through the loss of individual power can a man realise that he himself is nothing without a link to the rest of life.
This is always a difficult house, unless the path of service is pursued. Somehow the release of energy in this way alleviates much of the frustration and loneliness which accompanies twelfth house planets and makes the required sacrifices bearable. Great pain often occurs through the twelfth house for the loss of the will after so much careful building is a great blow to the man who has come to identify himself with his personal desires. Yet loss of will is the price which all planets pay when found in this house although the finding of real inner serenity is often gained in exchange.
As the last sign of the watery trigon, Pisces symbolises the completion and fulfillment of all emotional strivings--unity not with another person but with life itself. This is the mystical marriage, and it is most difficult for the average man, centered in his personality, to deal with. There is no battle required; only acquiescence and devotion. It is almost impossible to make any sense of the twelfth house from a purely mundane point of view, for even more than the eighth, this is a non-material house and pertains to matters which bring a man into closer touch with subjective reality. Any planet in the twelfth is subject to the dissolving and transmuting influence which blocks the ordinary personal expression of the planet and forces its energies inward and upward. That which occurs here occurs in secret like the gestation of a child. Only when the term is complete can this facet of the individual unfold like a newborn baby into external expression; and by then it is changed.
Saturn in the twelfth house, and to a lesser extent in Pisces, is difficult from the point of view of the personality because the Saturnian energies, geared initially toward self-protection and defense against the environment, are rendered ineffectual. This may in extreme situations be through hospitalisation or imprisonment for a period of time, and the man may learn through his own helplessness how ultimately impotent the personal will is against the forces of his own past which he himself has set in motion. The feeling that one is helpless and must submit to something larger and greater is frequent with this placement of Saturn although it may occur on a very subjective level. This is a cadent house and refers to states of mind, and Saturn here often generates a vague fear that someone or something, a misty or generalised fate or destiny, is going to destroy him or control him. He may isolate himself and attempt to shield himself from contact with others at the same time that he is weighed down by an oppressive loneliness and sense of powerlessness.
The sacrifice of one's material ambitions is often concurrent with a twelfth house Saturn, and this is also one of the commonest significators of the child who dedicates his life to the care of an ailing or helpless parent at the cost of his own development. This is often done not because it must be—there are always alternatives—but because there is an intense feeling of guilt, obligation, and an instinctual understanding that he must make some sacrifice or pay some debt. It is also often the reflection of a fear of confronting external life and a sense of impotence in being able to handle practical affairs.
Guilt looms large with this placement of Saturn although it is generalised rather than specific guilt. It may cause a man to seek penance through solitude, or there may be religious penance in the literal sense resulting in the monk or nun. It may be apparently involuntary penance as is the case with incarceration; but the man himself chooses this course although he may not consciously believe he will have to pay. It may result in sickness or withdrawal from conscious awareness through drugs, alcohol, or insanity. Or it may be much more subtle and less drastic, as in the case of the man who is always alone and always feels separation from the rest of humanity and the rest of life, no matter how many people he surrounds himself with.
Typical Saturnian ambivalence occurs with a twelfth house Saturn too, and there is both a compulsive fascination with and a great fear of losing one's identity and individuality. But whatever the specific mundane situation which is reflected, the individual is generally called upon at some point in his life to endure helplessness and aloneness and the sacrifice of his control. When this occurs on an inner level, the individual is frequently unable to communicate his feelings to others which only increases his sense of isolation. He does not understand what it is that he is trying to protect himself against, any more than he understands the abyss which draws him with such fascination. He only knows that he feels powerless and may overcompensate for this feeling by attempting to prove that he is totally master of his life. This may land him in hospital or in jail without his understanding the inner motives which have brought him there.
Saturn is representative in his disguised and baser form as the most personal kind of power, that which a person seizes for self-protection through manipulation of his environment. It is man's defense mechanism which is necessary for a long time while the unfolding consciousness needs defending; however, when Saturn is found in Pisces or in the twelfth house, the time has come for the scaffolding to be taken down for the inner structure is nearly complete, and stripping this away is initially like stripping off one's outer skin and exposing the raw and tender area beneath.
As opposite to the sixth house, the twelfth disorganises that which the sixth has put in order and offers chaos instead. This is not the chaos of sickness and madness, however; it only seems so to those who have built their conception of reality on a mundane base.
Understanding the meaning of this position takes us beyond the field of orthodox psychology which has certainly mastered the fourth house and some of the eighth but is lost when confronting the mysteries of the twelfth. Recognition of the urge for evolution, for meaning, for the spiritual side of life as a valid psychological drive in man is now becoming widespread however; and when it is understood that this is perhaps the most basic and most important instinct in man—although an instinct of the psyche rather than of the body—then it will not be such a painful experience for a man to sacrifice his personality to permit his total self expression. The real potential of Saturn in the twelfth house is unfortunately only available now to those of a mystical bent who are inclined toward the path of inner contemplation. To them it is the final sacrifice of the sense of separateness and is willingly undergone because it is the last door between man and his freedom. It depends in the end on one's perspective. Trying to hunt Saturn down through the mazes of the unconscious is difficult enough in the eighth house where there are still some personality links; but the twelfth is wholly of the soul, and analysis does not help understanding unless it is backed by a knowledge of man's innately spiritual nature. The gold available from a twelfth house Saturn is the power to serve, not to "do good"—which is not service at all—but to experience the sense of unity which the mystic is forever seeking and the sense of responsibility and detached love which accompanies this unity. This will, of course, make no sense to the earthy man and may offend more pragmatic astrologers; but the fact remains that the twelfth house has not yet been satisfactorily explained any more than has the nature of man. It may be that as scientific evidence piles up, slowly but surely, in demonstration of the occult teachings of the past, the interrelation-ships of all living things and their essential underlying oneness will be a fact on the objective plane as well as a subjective experience on the part of the mystic.
Saturn in the watery signs and houses is worthy of first place because it is in this area that he displays his greatest ambiguity and also his greatest emotional suffering. As man is only now beginning to learn how to think objectively as a group, and as the majority of people are still polarised in their feeling natures, Saturn in water is responsible for a great deal of the loneliness and isolation so apparent at the present time. It is of some help for the individual who has Saturn in a watery house or sign to recognise that his potential in terms of inner peace, understanding, and wisdom is as great as his potential for despair if he will only turn inward to the realm of the feelings and of the unconscious.

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posted July 17, 2005 12:19 AM              

Saturn focused in the 12th house

is

Saturn (duty, also structure) focused in the 12th house (spirituality, also confusion)

so this could be a confusing times if you try to structure your spirituality, but if you think of what your duty is to your spirituality and do it, things go much better. For the longer version of this, see Liz Greene!

Keeping it simple,

posted July 17, 2005 01:43 PM              

xoxo Esther

posted July 17, 2005 02:13 PM              

Saturn in the 12th
Like those with Saturn in the 8th, people with Saturn in the 12th are often afraid of what lurks beneath the surface level of consciousness. Should they relax their controls over themselves, they fear that they might be engulfed by overwhelming emotions.
The neo-Freudian believe that in the name of security and social adaptability, we repress certain drives, impulses and appetites which theirs (or our own egos) would find unacceptable. But some with Saturn in the 12th go a step further. In divorcing themselves from what is in the unconscious, they also inhibit a very positive and pressing desire which exists in all of us -- the urge to reconnect our at-one-ness with the rest of life. Instead of experiencing joy at the prospect of merging with something greater than the self, they recoil in horror at the thought of dissolution of the individuality. Robert Desoille, a French psychotherapist, coined a term for this, calling it 'the repression of the sublime.'
In certain cases, they suffer a type of guilt or despair -- something inside tells them that they are not all they could be. Or they are beset by paranoia, a feeling that someone or something is out to destroy them. Traditional textbooks interpret Saturn in the 12th as 'undoing by secret enemies'; but more often than not, the enemy is an aspect of their own unconscious selves, angry with them for having been brushed aside. When they make friends with what they have rejected a sense of peace settles over the psyche, and they rest more easily at night. If they don't reconcile themselves with parts of themselves they have denied, then they protect themselves against invasion by double-locking their doors, keeping to themselves, and remembering to forget their dreams.
Deep psychological fears which are difficult to trace may contribute to a pervading sense of self-doubt and lack of confidence. Sometimes their problems may stem from pre-natal difficulties. The womb is a place where we are meant to swim in a sense of the totality of life.
If for any reason those waters were troubled, then we may later resist anything which resembles that kind of experience. It may be worthwhile for those with Saturn in the 12th to investigate what the gestation period might have been like. Perhaps the mother wasn't sure about having a child at the time. Or she could have been worried about money or the state of affairs with the father. For whatever reasons, the developing embryo, through the umbilical connection, registers that life is not all right. The child grows up vaguely anxious about almost everything, guilty about being alive, and in poor relation to the rest of life.
Either due to this sense of guilt or partly motivated by an innate feeling of being responsible for other people's problems, they may feel that they owe a debt to society which can be paid off through service. They sometimes work in hospitals, prisons, charities or governmental agencies dealing any number of ways with those in trouble or need. Others with Saturn in the 12th may live out their all-pervading sense of unacceptability behind bars or hidden away in a hospital ward.
Some with Saturn in this house are terrified of intimacy. This could stem from a fear of being engulfed, or a dread of losing their identity as a separate individual. They may believe that they can only maintain their autonomy by withdrawing from people. Or they fear that no matter what they do, all things will come to a bad end. Thus, they shun attachment or commitment to people or things. This underlying sense of futility needs to be brought to the surface and explore. Until they do this, they may fear the whole realm of emotions and feelings (12th house) and take refuge by living mainly 'in their heads'.
Any principle in the 12th house can sustain us or undo us. Positive Saturn qualities such as recognizing their natural limits, the acceptance of duty and responsibility, and plain common sense may help through difficult situations. Some exhibit a deep inner wisdom which can guide them through the most difficult times. However, to great a sense of separateness from the rest of life, an overly materialistic outlook, or a refusal to examine psychological problems could be the cause of pain and suffering. Sometimes there is a voluntary withdrawal from activity or a compelling need for privacy and seclusion to recollect the pieces of the self which have been shattered by a stressful encounter with life. At times, they may be driven to seek the support or aid of caring agencies or turn to 'something up there' for help. As hard as might be, a crisis which precipitates their asking others for help may enable them to discover that they are not as alone in the world as they believed. The German poet Goethe, born with Saturn in Scorpio in the 12th, lyrically expressed a similar sentiment when he wrote: 'Who never ate his bread with tears, who never sat through sorrowful night, weeping on his bed, does not know...heavenly powers.'
In conclusion, Saturn in the 12th asks that the whole realm of the unconscious be taken seriously. Those with this placement may be afraid to explore these waters and yet this is precisely what they need to do. Should they overcome their fears and embark on the path of psychological self-investigation, their efforts will be amply rewarded. they will not only reconnect to severed parts of themselves but regain a lost sense of relatedness to the rest of life in the process.

posted July 17, 2005 02:18 PM            

Thanks for writing all that out! Howard Sasportas ("The Twelve Houses") is one of Liz Greene's writing partners -- I think they have rubbed off on each other!

I have Pluto in XII so I sympathize with everyone who has planets in the twelfth.....