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Author Topic:   What house rules lying, lies, liars?
Lauren
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2014

posted September 12, 2005 04:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lauren     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to steal Lilly's question idea.. but I was wondering about this, because I asked a horary question. The q was "did he lie to me" and I'm not sure which house would represent him..

I did the chart for the moment he actually told me this for the first time..because my first reaction to it was "are you lying" and I know the exact date and time.

Would it have been a better idea to ask the question now..about the past.. or is it better from my perspective at that time (because that's when I first asked myself the q..is he lying)

Thank You

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shop22much
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posted September 12, 2005 05:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shop22much     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
great question, Lauren...I hope someone can answer this question for me too...

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Sun_Scorpion
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posted September 12, 2005 05:27 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm.. I thought maybe the 12th?? Ruling subconsious, secrets ect...

I found this, hope it might help you:

" The Twelfth House
House of Subconscious

The Twelfth House is commonly referred to as the House of the Unconscious. The unconscious state can help engender our successes, as well as assist us in coping with our failures. Success vs. failure: do we consciously confront our lives or subconsciously sweep things under the proverbial rug? This House might more aptly be called the House of Reckoning, since it is in the Twelfth that we review what we have been (and done) and decide where we go from there. Along with these unconscious musings, we also deliberate on strengths and weaknesses which are hidden from public view.

Our subconscious works hard on our behalf, trying to make sense of our lives. This shadow play is slow and long, and often fraught with fear and pain. It is in this context that we are confronted with our sorrows, suffering and the secrets we keep from ourselves and from others. Ultimately, we are also confronted with our fate: karma. Here we meet up with the results of everything we have done. This further puts the focus on repressed agendas and restraint. What have we wrought with in our lives? This is a key question of the Twelfth House, and we will deal with it both consciously and unconsciously. Will the answers compel us to be transformed or reborn? This is another cornerstone of the Twelfth House -- the manner in which we move forward.

We can learn much from the unconscious. In its most noble manifestation, we will be prompted to be charitable. If we learn our lessons, both past and present, we are also better equipped to move forward. The Twelfth House compels us to seek closure in a spiritual way as an aid to positive growth.

The last House of the zodiac also recognizes that we can feel bound in life -- stuck and confined. For this reason, this House rules jails, hospitals, institutions, asylums and any space that inhibits freedom. More gloominess in the Twelfth comes in the form of danger, secret enemies and clandestine affairs. Beware!

While some may decry the Twelfth House as the garbage bin of the zodiac, it's really an unfair term. Ultimately, this House is the champion of positive transformations. It is here that we stand on the precipice and determine how we will proceed. By visiting the unconscious and meeting with the past, we begin to glean what the future will bring.

The Twelfth House is ruled by the Sign Pisces and the Planets Jupiter and Neptune. "

http://www.astrology.com/aboutastrology/interpreting/houses/house12.html

The 7th and 8th are interactions and partnerships, I also found this on the 7th house info:

"Tensions within a partnership also serve to teach us lessons. For this reason, the Seventh House also focuses on the darker side of our unions. Divorce, lawsuits and treaties all fall within this House. At its worst, a partnership may create enemies -- and on a more global scale, these rifts can deteriorate into war. It is our reaction to this adversity which will shape the partnerships yet to come."

Hope that helps! I dont know about horays or anything, but good luck!

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Sun_Scorpion
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posted September 12, 2005 05:52 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry, heres the link again!
http://www.astrology.com/aboutastrology/interpreting/houses/house12.html

Dunno what happened to the other one!

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cancerrg
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posted September 12, 2005 08:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cancerrg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ascendant Aries 22°50'06
2nd House Taurus 25°34'31
3rd House Gemini 21°31'14
Imum Coeli Cancer 15°27'58
5th House Leo 11°25'15
6th House Virgo 13°21'05
Descendant Libra 22°50'06
8th House Scorpio 25°34'31
9th House Sagittarius 21°31'14
Medium Coeli Capricorn 15°27'58
11th House Aquarius 11°25'15
12th House Pisces 13°21'05


this makes me surpirised big time !
got all the rulers .
any gueses what it means in real terms ?

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Gemini Nymph
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posted September 12, 2005 11:42 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think there's a specific house that covers all kinds of lies. I think it depends on what context. Self-deception would easily fall into the 12th house, while lying to gain social advancement probably would fall under the 10th, for example. I guess lying to your hubby would be the 7th while lying otthe IRS would be the 8th.

Anyhow, houses represent the areas in our life and specifc *tasks* that may apply (like the 4th: the area is the home and the tasks are things like child-rasing or home-keeping), but do not necessarily represent the actions and choices we take in those respective areas. Actions and choices require energy, so teh act and choice of deception in any form normally gets attributed to bodies (planets, mainly) adn their aspects. If there's an apsect that shows potential for deception, chances are the deception would manifest in which house that aspect affects directly.

On a side note, Gemini and Scorpio are two signs most commonly alligned with lying in some particularly uncharming forms, but all the other signs can be associated will some form of lying: Aries with bragging, Sag with tall-tale-telling, Cancer to avoid self-exposure, Cap to gain approval, Leo to gain affection or amdiration and so forth. Even pure Virgo can lie, and often out of pure vindicativeness. So as far as the signs go, none are really above lying.

On a second side note (at risk of offending any Virgos further) - Virgos are often the most conscientious about the truth, and really that means they are often very aware of what is true and what is not true. That also mean they can easily use truth and deception as weapons. Curiously, its polarity, Pisces, is not as conscientious or aware of the line between turth and untruth, and this oftenis a source of a lot of confusion among Pisceans. Pisceans often are accused of lying for this reason, but mostly it's just their own confusion and inability to disguish what is and is not true.

*Some* Pisceans do blantantly lie (at least it would appear to others), but one intriguing thing I've come to understand about Piscean consciousness is that it's not so much a lie to the Piscees mind as truth simply becomes very subjective and highly relative. If the Pisces mind becomes to accustomed to not thinking critically and checking its perception against the outsided world, truth to it becomes maliable and easily distorted. Hence why you can have a Piscean like Osama bin Laden running around, distorting truths left and right. To him it's probably not lying at all, even if to someone outside of his Osamaverse could eaily beg to differ.

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SecretGardenAgain
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posted September 12, 2005 04:38 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
On a side note, Gemini and Scorpio are two signs most commonly alligned with lying in some particularly uncharming forms

omg that is scary im a Gem/scorp very scary indeed and i do so bend the truth...try not to blatantly lie most of the time but it is a task. there are certain people we can be very honest with and certain people we will never be honest with because they simply jump on us. Geminis in general tend to be complicated with several unpleasant quirks themselves , and sometimes skeletons in the closet, if someone will not judge us we will tell them everything truthfully, but if they judge we will conceal all with the utmost artistry and spin beautiful little lies that after a while no one, even ourselves, can distinguish from the truth...

so far as Piscean 'subjectivity' goes GemNymph, I agree and Ive seen that quite a bit, they forget to check the perception against the outside world because they have a completely alternate universe in their minds somewhere. while it is intriguing it drives me batty. if a Gem tried to pull that we would be called delusional but then AGAIN gems ARE delusional so what am i talking about.

Love
SG

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alanabelle86
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From: Somewhere over the Rainbow...
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posted September 12, 2005 10:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for alanabelle86     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i'm a scorp and i never lie... when i was younger i did it constantly but i stopped around age 8 cuz i realized it didnt hurt as much if i told the truth, rather than lying and being caught...

& u know us scorps cant risk getting caught...

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AcousticGod
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posted September 12, 2005 10:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wouldn't aspects that interfere with reality also contribute to lying? Or extremely self-serving placements?

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hot_ice
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posted September 13, 2005 01:22 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There should be some connection with the 12th house,the third house,neptune,gemini,pisces and mercury,some sort of aspects,as 12th/pisces-deception etc.....and gemini-talking,cunning etc...

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Lauren
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posted September 13, 2005 02:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lauren     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks so much for all your replies..It's very helpful though I'm still a bit confused

Sun_Scorpion, I also thought the 12th because it has a lot to do with mystery and deception.. but I'm not so sure in this situation, because if it was a lie, it isn't so much mysterious as just plain blatant lying.I don't know much about Horary either. I've only looked into it the past couple of weeks.

This is a good site that explains the basics of it, if you want to have a look.. http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/horary.html and there's this as well http://mithras93.tripod.com/

GemNymph, you're right about every sign being able to lie about different things. I hadn't thought of it that way. As far as I understand, with horary, the ruler of the Ascendant - in this case the Asc is Virgo, ruler Mercury, represents the querent (me).. and the ruler of whichever house the question is asked about represents the other person (him). The lie was about a health matter..so should I look at the 6th then? Neptune is in the 6th so that's interesting lol.. If he's represented by the 6th (aquarius) his ruler is Saturn..Apparently only the old planetary rulers are meant to be taken into account in horary. In that case, Saturn (him) would square Merc (me) in the chart..

Hot_Ice, that makes sense, almost everyone mentioned Pisces (12th), Scorp and Gemini..

The 3rd house cusp is Sag with Pluto in it..12th cusp is Leo with the moon (in virgo conj asc) in it.. The Moon and Pluto square..so there is a contact between 12th - 3rd.

If I took the 3rd (communication) to represent him though, since the 3rd house cusp is Sag that would make him Jupiter in the chart. Jupiter is in the 1st and it opposes Merc (me)

Whereas if I take the 12th to represent him..the 12th is Leo so he'd be the Sun which conjuncts Merc (me)

This is the chart:

Planetary positions
planet sign degree house motion
Sun Aries 03°47'38 07 direct
Moon Virgo 16°00'49 12 direct
Mercury Aries 12°54'29 07 retrograde
Venus Aries 02°04'08 07 direct
Mars Aquarius 02°35'50 05 direct
Jupiter Libra 15°16'43 01 retrograde
Saturn Cancer 20°23'56 11 stationary (D)
Uranus Pisces 08°16'22 06 direct
Neptune Aquarius 16°45'31 06 direct
Pluto Sagittarius 24°30'46 03/4 stationary (R)
Pluto is technically near the end of house 3 and is interpreted in house 4.
True Node Aries 22°48'24 07 retrograde


House positions (Placidus)
Ascendant Virgo 22°57'58
2nd House Scorpio 03°48'48
3rd House Sagittarius 02°39'04
Imum Coeli Sagittarius 25°51'47
5th House Capricorn 18°27'03
6th House Aquarius 15°11'07
Descendant Pisces 22°57'58
8th House Taurus 03°48'48
9th House Gemini 02°39'04
Medium Coeli Gemini 25°51'47
11th House Cancer 18°27'03
12th House Leo 15°11'07

Major aspects
Sun Conjunction Venus 1°43
Sun Sextile Mars 1°12
Sun Square Medium Coeli 7°56
Moon Sextile Saturn 4°23
Moon Opposition Uranus 7°44
Moon Quincunx Neptune 0°45
Moon Conjunction Ascendant 6°57
Mercury Opposition Jupiter 2°22
Mercury Sextile Neptune 3°51
Venus Sextile Mars 0°32
Jupiter Square Saturn 5°07
Jupiter Trine Neptune 1°29
Saturn Sextile Ascendant 2°34
Pluto Square Ascendant 1°33
Pluto Opposition Medium Coeli 1°21

I'm still a bit confused..because whichever house I'd choose to represent him I'd get very different answers.. The 3rd being in Sag, ruled by Jupiter in the 1st (that has a lot to do with truth) so if he's represented by Jupiter maybe it was true.
The 6th on the other hand has Neptune in it and Saturn, its ruler, squares me..so that doesn't seem as positive.. though Jupiter opposes me (mercury) as well..so either way it could be negative

lol I'm just confusing myself. Horary is very confusing and I'm a bimbo - picture that smiley in pink with blonde hair jk

Any ideas?

Thx again

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Neptune's Muse
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posted September 13, 2005 04:30 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SecretGarden, I think that's quite true and it goes for some if not most Pisceans. If they sense a tad of judgmental attitude they detach and conceal the truth and never open up. But then again, who likes judgmental people anyway, whether you are a gemini or a pisces?!

As far as the aspects concerning lying and aesthetically modifying the truth, maybe some aspects of self-conscious attitude could be present, some people lie because they want to be accepted and fit in, for fear of confrontation? You see it mostly in people who are rather emotionally immature, since this is a classic teenage escpaist attitude. I wonder what would be Saturn inflicting in this case? Mars is confrontation and assertiveness, so Saturn conflicting Mars, maybe...?

Great thread!

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virgolibra69
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posted September 21, 2005 02:52 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
look at the Fixed Stars associated with planets in the natal chart, it may tell you if someone is a liar, here is the link
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/

Although it says I may lie I find that I don't necessarily lie about important stuff but might embellish! Generally I'm really honest though!

------------------
Sun Virgo 29,Moon Aquarius 25,Cancer Ascendant 25

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soljourney
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posted September 21, 2005 03:31 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Saturn-Mercury hard contacts, and possibly Saturn-Neptune (my opinion, not Astrologically substantiated). With Saturn Neptune (G W Bush has this aspect) it would seem that the native has a difficult time w/ discernment re: disillusionment, discerning what is reality. Always look to the houses that are ruled by these planets, and the house that they reside in.

Also, look for Saturn in the 3rd house. This greatly depends on the condition (friction) of Saturn in the natal chart.

But Saturn-Merc is a great indicator.

-Sol

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Hexxie
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posted September 21, 2005 03:59 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hey Lauren - i don't know anything about horary astrology but i had some thoughts that may (or may not) help. the planet jupiter represents truth (the opposite of lies). also, the planet saturn represents deception. so maybe looking at: 1) the houses 9 & 10 (for jupiter & saturn)to see what is on the house cusps there and 2) the signs these planets are in in yer chart, you can then maybe see if there are any afflictions. i may just be way out in left field tho...

planets rule...

i just learned how to do that hyperlink thingy so i'm goin nuts

------------------
~Libra Sun / 29* Gemini Rising / Aquarius Moon~

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Lauren
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
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posted September 21, 2005 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lauren     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks guys!

quote:
NM -You see it mostly in people who are rather emotionally immature, since this is a classic teenage escpaist attitude. I wonder what would be Saturn inflicting in this case? Mars is confrontation and assertiveness, so Saturn conflicting Mars, maybe...?

lol Yeah we're both teens still. This guy's actually a year younger than me, except it gets pretty confusing when someone looks very mature but they act very imature. It's like every time you see them you kinda expect them to act older, because they look it. With Mars, it conjuncts Neptune in that Horary chart (by sign), but no aspects to Saturn. In his natal he has a Mars/Neptune square hmmm

VirgoLibra, the fixed star thing is interesting. I'll look into that, I don't know much about fixed stars.

quote:
Sol -Saturn-Mercury hard contacts, and possibly Saturn-Neptune (my opinion, not Astrologically substantiated).

There is a square in horary. Saturn is in Cancer and Mercury in Aries, but not close by degree (8 deg orb)

quote:
Hex - looking at: 1) the houses 9 & 10 (for jupiter & saturn)to see what is on the house cusps there and 2) the signs these planets are in in yer chart, you can then maybe see if there are any afflictions

Jupiter and the 9th, makes perfect sense for HONESTY, so that's a good idea thx In the horary chart the cusp of the 9th is Gemini (wadda ya know lol)

On the other hand though, the 3rd (communication) has Sag on the cusp.

So it's either a case of misguided honesty (gem 9th) or honest communication (sag 3rd) lol. Jupiter is in the 1st, which I would've thought is a good thing. Honesty (jup) being all visible and obvious in the 1st house BUT that conflicts itself as well, because it opposes Mercury. I think they're also in mutual reception by house.. because Jupiter is in the 1st (aries' house) in Libra and Mercury is in the 7th (Libra's house) in Aries

quote:
i just learned how to do that hyperlink thingy so i'm goin nuts

heehee it's k, I've always been nuts. You get used to it after a while lol

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appleberry
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posted January 09, 2013 03:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for appleberry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did you find out which was the adequate house to use?

I'm trying to figure it out but its hard because of the charts I'm looking at... I don't think I'll ever kniw the answer

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micole maree
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posted January 09, 2014 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for micole maree     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I came across something somewhere that said that 12th house, expressed negatively, could have to do with secrets, lies and addictions.

I had this experience with an ex. Jupiter, Moon and Uranus were all conjunct in MY 12th. And he is not only a narcissist (narcissists lie all the time), but he was a sex addict. Porn, prostitutes. Yeah. TONS of betrayal. It was just lovely. He was also really abusive.

Now I'm curious enough that I've got to go and look for some of these other aspects mentioned here.

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IMoppedtheFloor
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posted January 10, 2014 06:03 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lauren:
Sorry to steal Lilly's question idea.. but I was wondering about this, because I asked a horary question. The q was "did he lie to me" and I'm not sure which house would represent him..

I did the chart for the moment he actually told me this for the first time..because my first reaction to it was "are you lying" and I know the exact date and time.

Would it have been a better idea to ask the question now..about the past.. or is it better from my perspective at that time (because that's when I first asked myself the q..is he lying)

Thank You



12th - because of the connection to Neptune.

I've noticed anyway that 12th housers do play fast and loose with the truth anyway.

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harleyniall1998
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posted January 23, 2014 12:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for harleyniall1998     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh,i have Sun capricorn,venus aqua,neptune capri in 12th house.And the self deception stuff is quite correct.

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theunknown
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posted January 27, 2014 09:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theunknown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
People with mars or venus in Pisces or aspecting neptune can charm ppl. Scorpio/pluto influenced is manipulative. Jupiter is excess. Libra/venus is easy to please. Everybody lies for different reasons. I'd expect air and fire people lie more easily though.

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Randall
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posted January 29, 2014 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Empty 12th and honest to a fault.

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Gracha
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posted March 05, 2014 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gracha     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow, I'm a gemini moon conjunct north node in 12th house and I'm an honest person. I don't like leading people on and I've been told I'm too honest and called blunt. I'm an Aries sun/mars. Anyways, not all 12th house persons are liars etc. Some of you are reading too literal. I'd say Leo for lying because of their big egos, Gemini suns seem to lie in general like they just don't care lol, Virgos are sneaky and Scorpios are too suspicious so causing them to lie because they think you're bs'ing them. This is what I've seen from people close to me with these sun signs.

With that I wouldn't say a particular house rules liars because anyone can be a liar with or without 12th house action.

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Thefish
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posted March 18, 2014 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thefish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Horary is about planet aspects and houses. As mentioned above there are houses associated with different types of lying or what you are lying about.

If I were to be so bold as to presume I'd imagine you are wondering if a guy you are interested in/involved with lied about where he was or if he knew some girl or some action that makes you question if he's trustworthy/faithful.

Horary could help but I will tell unequivocally that as a man we are creatures of logic and basically using logic can unravel any lie. It really comes down to your ability to accept the treality of the situation and not be deuped by your emotions or what you want the answer to be.

Now as for horary itself. You're the querent so you are going to be represented by the planet that represents the ruler of the 7th house cusp in your horary chart. The moon will represent your emotions on the matter.
My suggestion is to present the exact time you asked the question to someone who does horary and give a more specific question than, "Did he lie?" For example, "Did he lie about talking to that girl?" Or, "Did he lie about being at the mall?"

The interesting thing is that a horary chart can provide answers as long as you aren't trying to manipulate the chart. That's why it's better to have some else read it. Please udnerstand I'm not suggesting that someone willing or malovalently manipulates the chart but rather our hopes/desires can make us see things how we want them to be rather than what they are.

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Randall
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posted April 01, 2014 11:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good point--different Houses for different types of lies.

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