posted December 10, 2005 07:53 PM              

A bunch of scientists and people showing us the other side of things as far as astrology being fake. I have always condidered this but i still think it is more real than fake. Read below about some opinions from these people...

QUOTES:
And here in is the secret of astrology. No matter
what you say, many people will believe it.
The hard claims never work as promised, but astrology
survives because if you throw enough snow at 'em, they quickly
get lost in the welter of claims and can't tell its drivel.

This is why astrology survives.
It also tells you a lot about the observational
abilities of the masses and that makes you shudder
to read these sort of things.
Astrologers have for centuries claimed to be able to extract deep
insights into the personality and destiny of people using nothing more
than the details of the time and place of birth.

.....

what do you all think of this?

posted December 10, 2005 09:53 PM              

I do not know if your name is to indicate that you are a TEENager, but your question shows that you are very smart !!

Check my post on "Why the ages move backwards".

Everything we know or believe is only what is permitted by our own mind.
So unknowingly we chose what we want to accept.

So in Astrology, science, whatever, you will always find people who disagree.
Then they fight because they do not realise they are both right.

But one warning very few people have sufficent knowledge to claim the qualifications which they do.

posted December 10, 2005 10:00 PM            

quote:

---

but astrology
survives because if you throw enough snow at 'em, they quickly
get lost in the welter of claims and can't tell its drivel.

This is why astrology survives.

---

posted December 10, 2005 11:15 PM              

So, thats why knowing your astrology's so important, so that you know whats going on, and can get over it.

posted December 11, 2005 12:32 AM              

You can't teach a scientist to believe astrology:
It wastes your time and annoys the scientist!

For some, astrology works and is a help to them. For others, it does not work and is of no help to them. I have learned to concentrate on the ones who want the help and leave the others alone.

Helping those who want to learn,

Tim

posted December 11, 2005 01:58 AM            

I once accidentally mentioned astrology in front of a very reputable neuroscientist, HUGE MISTAKE.

For us who study astrology its more like a fun hobby than anything else. (well at least for me) It's something to do when you'r ebored, or talk about with new people to get to know them. When you bring it up to people who already have a preconceived notion against it, you might as well be preaching christianity or some other religion. It's really not worth it most of the time. I usually just discreetly find out the birthday and not bring it up ,unless i'm at a bar or a party....

There's an interesting psychological theory called "schema" theory. Schema theory states that you form "mental structures," or schemas for certain ideas/things, and then you fit any new information into the schema. Astrology may work on this principle. You form 12 schemes and then you fit everything about a certain person into your schema for that sign. Ex: Oh hes so sensetive, its because hes a cancer, or oh he can't make decisions hes such a libra...

posted December 11, 2005 11:16 AM              

I think there are alot of very good astrologers here.

posted December 12, 2005 08:11 PM              

"Astrology is a science in itself and contains an illuminating body of knowledge. It taught me many things, and I am greatly indebted to it. Geophysical evidence reveals the power of the stars and the planets in relation to the terrestrial. In turn, astrology reinforces this power to some extent. This is why astrology is like a life-giving elixir to mankind." - ALBERT EINSTEIN

"10 embarrassing questions" to ask astrologers and the rebuttles.

1. What is the likelihood that one-twelfth of the world's population is having the same kind of day?

That depends on how broadly you describe "the same kind of day". You seem to be referring to Sun Sign astrology that attempts to describes daily experience solely by sun sign. This is astrology at its lowest common denominator, even when those newspaper columns are written by qualified astrologers. Few of them are. A complete horoscope is much more personalized, considering the position of the Sun, Moon, and planets calculated to the minute of a degree at the moment of birth and from the perspective of the birthplace.

2. Why is the moment of birth, rather than conception, crucial for astrology?

Because, birth is what gives us a complete human being.

And as we've seen from thousands of years of empirical observation, it works. The time of birth is identifiable, and marks the beginning of life as an autonomous human being - unlike the moment of conception, which is rarely identifiable. (And as for when a zygote becomes a viable life form, this is a question that has gone back and forth on the whole question of abortion. Nobody has a clear answer, and it seems to be a philosophical, rather than a scientific, question about the very nature and meaning of the beginning of life.)

3. If the mother's womb can keep out astrological influences until birth, can we do the same with a cubicle of steak?

You can only be given birth once.

But if a cubicle of steak could be devised to provide full life support so that the individual inside had no need for independent breath, food, elimination, cleaning, etc. that might be an interesting experiment. But then a person living in such a vegetative state would not be able to make the choices or have the experiences that astrology is used to help with.

Actually the research of Michel Gauquelin shows astrological patterns within families. (I've seen this in my own work, and other astrologers see it regularly, but unlike our "anecdotal experience" Gauquelin has applied scientific standards of statistical methodology.) He sees this as suggesting that astrological influences may trigger the birth, so the child may well be susceptible to astrological influences in the womb well before birth.

4. If astrologers are as good as they claim, why aren't they richer?

If you're so smart, then why aren't you rich? And shouldn't every member of Mensa be a multi-millionaire? Many of us began the study of astrology as a spiritual pursuit rather than a commercial one. The field is predominant with people who consider philosophical and spiritual wealth far more important than money. Still, most of us are indeed richer than we would be without astrology, both financially and philosophically. There are many branches of astrology and very few astrologers use astrology for financial investments - usually because skills and interests lie in other fields. Some astrologers can see that they have no chart for making money, but may help those who do. As J. P. Morgan said: "Millionaires don't use astrologers. Billionaires do."

5. Are all horoscopes done before the discovery of the three outermost planets incorrect?

Was astronomy incorrect before the Hubble Telescope? Every body of knowledge that is worth anything is constantly expanding, gaining new information, re-evaluating old theories in light of new evidence. Certainly horoscopes including the three outermost planets contain more information.

6. Shouldn't we condemn astrology as a form of bigotry? Isn't refusing to date a Leo or hire a Virgo as bad as refusing to date a Catholic or hire a black person?

Bigotry is pre-judging a person by skin color, religion, gender, sexual orientation, national origin, or other factors that have nothing to do with the substance of his/her character. Astrology is a manner of assessing the substance of his/her character. A simplistic approach -- i.e. Aquarians are good people, Scorpios are evil -- is indeed a form of bigotry. A full chart analysis could actually help people into the jobs where they would be most satisfied and productive. (I might want a Virgo for an accountant, but not if s/he has a Sun-Neptune conjunction in the 6th house on the apex of a t-square between Jupiter and Mars -- although that person might make an excellent EMT.)

As for whom you choose to date, that's a highly personal matter. If you don't want to date Catholics, I'm one RC who won't snap your mackerel, but respect your right to choose your dates as you wish. Now Fraknoi is going from telling us how we should think to how we should love.

Moreover he repeats the same questions ad nauseum and ignores the answers. This is as narrow-minded a prejudice as any form of religious bigotry. Besides which, it is the opposite of science.

7. Why do different schools of astrology disagree so strongly with each other?

There are disagreements within any discipline of knowledge. Within a large group of astronomers there will also be disagreements. It is this writer's opinion, though, that those sciences which have been supported by universities, governments, and large corporations have had the great opportunities and funding to test more fully many theories, some of which have been proven wrong, some right, some still in contention. Astrologers have no such support and rely more on personal, indeed, anecdotal experience. Also as a field where there is no established consistent code of credentials and protocols there is inevitably more variation of thought. Some of us regard this diversity as a great opportunity; some consider it a gateway to sloppy research, theorizing, and interpretation.

8. If the astrological influence is carried by a known force, why do the planets dominate?

Astrological influence is not carried by a known force. If it were, the scientific community would have no choice but to accept its validity.

9. If astrological influence is carried by an unknown force, why is it independent of distance?

How can one judge the properties of an unknown force?

10. If astrological influences don't depend on distance, why is there no astrology of stars, galaxies, and quasars?

There is, although it is practiced by a small minority of astrologers. But more to the point, we don't know to what extent distance is or is not a factor in astrological influence. I subscribe to the theory that astrology deals exclusively with influences of our Sun, Moon, and the planets, an interactive matrix of influences entirely within our solar system. The stars of the zodiac are only markers -- relatively unmoving guides against which we can measure planetary, solar, and lunar motion.

posted December 12, 2005 09:19 PM              

By Jayj Jacobs

After food, sex and politics, astrology is mankind´s oldest fascination. We have always gone out at night and looked to the stars with awe and wonder. We looked for order and found the patterns of the constellations and the Signs of the Zodiac. As we wandered over the hills, reached peaks and descend into valleys we watched some of the stars strike out on their own, not following the prescribed order. We gave them a name that meant wanderer, we called them Planets and we matched their motion to our own.

Before bars and discos, even before cities, we went hunting by the light of the Full Moon and found both meat and meaning in the changing seasons. As we banded together for work and play we discovered the intricacies of relationship. Somehow we made the connection that we were connected to the cosmos. We discovered that life and living changed with the seasons, and that the season, even the month, day and time of our bith, could describe our character, behavior, potential, and our interactions with others.

Thus astrology was born. And it has continued to develop and grow as you have and as society has.

Real astrology is not just a pick-up line, nor it is a "telephone the computer" gimmick, or a "fortune cookie" reading in the daily paper. It is not a dial 1-900-Phychic phenomenum.

Astrology is the original science of human potential. It is the original, and still the best, way of discovering what you are capable of and best suited for, where you'll find the most excitement and the most satisfaction. Astrology reveals the design of your life through the unique horoscope calculated for your bith: the moment you begin participating as a separate entity, swimming the river of time under your own power.

The river is the same for all of us; we live in the same time; these are the Nineties not the Sixties. We are all brothers and sisters under the skin; we are made of the same components, but in different proportions and arrangements. We are willing and unwilling subjects in society's attempts to socialize us. That´s society´s job. Our is clarify our individuality, to actualize ourselves, to fulfill our purpose, according to our own design and the order inherent in the world.

Some of the ordering principles in the world are:

Life is not random, and living need not be disjointed. Life can be arranged into twelve arenas or kinds of activity, so that all experiences of a similar nature are contained in the same house. These are the Houses that make up life:

1. Physical Activity & Sef-ex-pression; 2. Possessions & Resourcefulness; 3. Communication & Exchange; 4. Home & Family; 5. Play & Creativity; 6. Work & Health; 7. Relationship & Agreement; 8. Sexuality & Transformation; 9. Knowledge & Exploration; 10. Sucess & Authority; 11. Friends & Aspirations; 12. Service & Sacrifice.

There is much more to each house, all other activities that arise from the shared essence are assigned to the same house.

What you experience depends on your attitude and on your orientation to life. People approach life from twelve points of view personified as archetypes and identified with the constellations or Signs of Zodiac.

These are: Aries the impulsive Leader, Taurus the stable Owner, Gemini the versatile Communicator, Cancer the nurturing Parent, Leo the proud Entertainer, Virgo the critical Expert, Libra the fair Balancer, Scorpio the intense Catalyst, Sagittarius the wise Explorer, Capricorn the strict Authority, Aquarius the friendly Inventor, and Pisces the compassionate Dreamer.

People are characterized by the energies they manifest and the things they do. Said otherwise, human consciousness is divisible into twelve energies or active factors related to the ten planets. Since each of these planets measures or "rules" one of the signs and acts out one of the houses, they are given here in the above order, the order of the signs.

These are the Planetary Energies: Mars is competition and pursuit. Venus is appreciation and increase. Mercury is mentality and adaptability. The Moon is emotion and need. The Sun is identity and confidence. Mercuru is alsp discrimination and skill. Venus is additionally love and ease. Pluto is empowerment and transformation. Jupiter is expansion and benefit. Saturn is structure and manifestation. Uranus is rebellion and change. Neptune is intuition and inspiration.

Your sign -- really the Sign the Sun was in when you were born -- reveals where you are coming from. It is the major components of your your identity and your character. It may be enough to start a conversation but fully understood it accounts for about eight percent of your total make-up. Other important factors complete the picture. Chief among these are your Moon sign which indicates who and what you need and how you respond ("Where's you Moon? would be a better line than "What´s your sign"?); and your Ascendant, also called the Rising Sign, which is the archetype you present to others, and describes how you act and behave... or not. (You could ask, "What's rising?").

In each horoscope there are about 100 more indicators that describe you as the unique individual you are. There are more possible horoscopes than there are people alive on the planet.

Astrologers arrive at these indicators by combining the basic ingredients into pairs: Planets in Signs, Signs on Houses, Planets in Houses, Planets in Aspect, plus Transiting Planets in Aspect and Transits through Houses for prediction. (Some astrologers use additional techniques, much as psychologist of different schools use a variety of approaches.)

Planets in Signs show the style, or manner of ex-pression, of your various energies as filtered or colored by the archetypes represented by the signs. Basically this is how you do what humans do.

Signs on Houses are generated in sets from the Sun (the Solar chart) and from the Ascendant (the Natal chart). These indicators describe your attitudes and approaches to the areas of life outlined by the houses. This is how are oriented to what there is in life.

Planets in Houses show where you direct your energies, what experiences you seek, and which you find satisfying, and what you slip into when you fall short of your expectations. This is where you put yourself with respect to life.

Planets in Aspect are the angular relationships between the planets that show how one energy factor is influenced by others. Planets in aspect combine their energies, and are akin to internal dialogues and debates between basic urges.

The possible combinations are as infinite as human variation.Together they present all the myriad ways human manifest on the planet. Measured for a moment of bith these ingredients show what's cooking with any person. We all have the pieces we need to be the dish we are but some of us are sweeter, saltier or meatier than others; that´s what make us unique, and what makes life and people interesting.

But astrology doesn´t stop with birth. The planets didn´t stop when you were born. Their continuing movement outlines your path through life. As the Planets have moved, or made Transits through Houses and formed Transiting Aspects to the planets in your birth chart, you have shifted the emphasis in your life, leaving arenas behind you and moving on to new experiences, in a kind of cosmic dance to the music of the spheres. And the music isn't over.

You are going to spend the rest of yor life somewhere you've never been before. It's uncharted territory, nobody has ever been there. It's full of uncertainties, strange people, possible love, potential disasters and fleeting opportunities. It's your future. And it's your choice if you prefer to wander through this ever-changing mystery wondering what tomorrow will bring, questioning when or if you will reach your goals and realize your dreams.

You do have the option of finding a competent professional astrologer who will operate as a professional friend, one who understands you and what you're seeking, one who sees your potential and expects your best while accepting what you do put out. An astrologer with your chart is like a guide with a map of the future, a guide to being in the right place at the right time. Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come, or a person who comes across with the right idea and action at the right time.

Astrology can put you at the center of time, where everything cycles in turn within reach of your grasp, where you are in touch with and comfortable with every part of your make up, konowing what is true and valuable about you and what is challenge for you and for others.

An astrologer can reveal the course, cost, and payoff in your relationships since personal interest and interaction is neither accidental nor random, but a function of one person's signs, planets and houses (attitudes, energies and activities), stimulating, responding to and fitting with what another is equipped with astrologically. A good relationship is like cosmic chemistry.

Compatibility by astrology answers Robert Burn's wish, "What a gift to give us, to see ourselves as others see us". Birth charts provide the means to follow Socrate's instructions, "Know thyself", and Shakespeare's admonition, "To thine own self be true". Since, as Carl Jung observed, "Anyrhing born in a moment of time carries with the qualities of that moment", business, trips and other undertakings also have horoscopes.

J.P. Morgan, one of the richest men in the world, recognized this when he equipped, "Milionaires don't use astrology...Billionaires do". But these aren't the Twenties anymore than they are the Sixties, these are the Nineties. Anyone can use astrology to chart the course of their life, to take control of their destiny by discovering and actualizing their potential, to add aliveness and satisfaction to their relationships, and to enhance sucess by planning in time. Isn't it about time for you too.

.................................

"The Promise of Astrology" was originally written in 1987 (revised and © 1997) by Jayj Jacobs, a professional astrologer since 1972, to explain the nature, depth and value of astrology.

Jayj is the former Chair of Media Watch Committee, and Chair-Emeritus for the Legal Information Committee of the Association For Astrological Networking (AFAN), protecting astrology's reputation and astrologer's rights.

Permission to reprint - for the above purposes - is granted.

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I find this article is a good one for those naysayers.

posted December 17, 2005 11:02 AM              

Part of our purpose in life is to learn how to discern between fact & fiction. It may seem like an unfair obligation, not part of our job requirement - not something we applied for...