posted January 05, 2006 04:52 PM            

It's an honest delight reading her interpretations of the signs, and this book is more than the mere "relationship book" its humble title suggests. I'm learning more and more about myself and others with every page. I just read what she had to say about Leo, and it gave me so much new respect, appreciation, and understanding for this sign which I had neglected, dismissing it, for the most part, on the assumption that it had little more to teach me than self-centeredness, pomp and circumstance. But hear this:

"Leo is often shy and deeply introverted, but depends so ferociously upon the love and acceptance of others, that he will do virtually anything to win their approval. It is a problem of identity. The first task that challenges Leo is the issue of who he is, why he is here, why he is uniquely himself. It is a lifelong challenge....

"... Most of all, he needs faith in himself, in what he stands for, in what he is trying to become. Leo is the most human, the noblest, the most tragic - in the ancient Greek sense - of the signs. This is because the sign is the epitome of MAN, that bewildered creature who is half-animal and half-god, and who has not yet understood either his own origins or the fact that the world is populated with other human beings different from himself. The Leo who learns this is indeed the hero."

When she speaks of Leo's proud nobility, and stubborn inattention to the petty and banal, or his/her Arthurian idealism, and frequent, bitter disillusionment, I am reminded of traits in myself and others which I had previously thought could only be Piscean. Liz paints a portrait of Leo, "the Lover", charming and hospitable, and I'm recognizing Libra's I know (one has a Leo ASC). She gives us "the Divine Child", adorable and desperate for attention, and I'm understanding why my Leo friend always seemed so Cancerian (actually, he does have Venus there). In Leo, "the invididualist", I see some of what I love in Aquarians.

Highly Recommended (the book And Leos)!

hsc

"Being born under a particular sign, or having a lot of planets or the ascendant placed there, doesn't automatically show that you are those things, that you have those qualities full-blown and ready to display in the shop window. It means that there is a reservoir of potential innate in you, something to strive toward. You grow into your chart, just as a seed grows into a full plant."

-- Liz Greene

posted January 05, 2006 05:03 PM            

The connotations involved here are absolutely worth noting and making the distinction.

posted January 05, 2006 05:52 PM            

The bit about Leo rings pretty true for me:
"Leo is often shy and deeply introverted, but depends so ferociously upon the love and acceptance of others, that he will do virtually anything to win their approval. It is a problem of identity. The first task that challenges Leo is the issue of who he is, why he is here, why he is uniquely himself. It is a lifelong challenge...."
This Libra with Leo Asc growls an assent
for Virgo Liz Greene!!

'Zala

posted January 11, 2006 10:07 PM            

quote:

---

"Leo is often shy and deeply introverted, but depends so ferociously upon the love and acceptance of others, that he will do virtually anything to win their approval. It is a problem of identity. The first task that challenges Leo is the issue of who he is, why he is here, why he is uniquely himself. It is a lifelong challenge....

"... Most of all, he needs faith in himself, in what he stands for, in what he is trying to become. Leo is the most human, the noblest, the most tragic - in the ancient Greek sense - of the signs. This is because the sign is the epitome of MAN, that bewildered creature who is half-animal and half-god, and who has not yet understood either his own origins or the fact that the world is populated with other human beings different from himself. The Leo who learns this is indeed the hero."

---

I am a Leo, a Leo with many Leo friends and associates, both in the present and in the past. I don't know a single Leo who comes anywhere close to Liz Greene's profile of the sign, not one.

So, before you get too carried away with the idea that confident looking, confident sounding Leo is hiding behind a veneer of confidence to hide a shy, introverted, self doubting soul, you better think again. Leo is a fixed fire sign and an aggressive competitive personality; the opposite of what Liz Greene is telling you. Leo is not seeking your approval, Leo is living up to or attempting to live up to their own standards, not yours and those are high standards. For most Leos, they had some tests thrown in their path early in life. Those who didn't sought ways to test themselves, physically or intellectually or both. That confidence is a result of Leos having proved all they needed to prove.....to themselves. If anything, problems arise with Leos who are sometimes overconfident of their abilities to handle all situations but Leos don't suffer from a lack of confidence.

If it pleases you to think of Leo in the terms expressed by Liz Greene, be my guest but let me suggest to you that one day you're going to get folded, spindled and mutilated when you fail to heed what that much talked about roar is telling you. It's a warning you're over the line. If you persist, you're likely to find that Leo has claws and long teeth.

posted January 11, 2006 11:36 PM              

many leos (I Being a Leo with many of my planets in Leo) will say what jwhop said including myself when i allowed my ego to show my arse.

but alas ive done years of work on myself and have really honest people around me (for the most part) and at some point that ego just needs to take a step back.... i am not realizing my true self and am forever grateful....

posted January 12, 2006 01:08 AM            

This is a Linda Goodman site. Let's see what she said about Leo. If there's any astrologer I would trust with Sun sign interpretations or any other, it's Linda Goodman.

"There are no introverted Leos. There are only Leos who pretend to be introverts. That's important to remember."

My comments were about Liz Greene's Sun sign interpretation which is so far off the mark as to be insulting to the sign.

If you wish to attempt turning yourself into another sign/work on yourself, go for it. Or you could just go with what the universe gave you...Leo.

There's always someone to tell you what you should be, how you should think, how you should react. Problem is, when you've remodeled yourself, they won't like you any better that way either. Chances are, neither will you

posted January 12, 2006 11:03 AM            

quote:

---

You were making a solid case, right up until those last two, fatalistic and blatantly nasty, sentences

---

quote:

---

There's always someone to tell you what you should be, how you should think, how you should react. Problem is, when you've remodeled yourself, they won't like you any better that way either. Chances are, neither will you

---

posted January 12, 2006 11:37 AM            

It is your contention that,

1.) Regardless of what transformations we undergo, or what transcendence we accomplish, in the course of our terrestrial soujourns, we will necessarily produce the same effect upon others, or, at least, no better effect than we always have produced upon them.

2.) Regardless of what transformations we undergo, or what transcendence we accomplish, in the course of our terrestrial soujourns, we will most likely produce the same effect upon ourselves, or, at least, no better effect than we always have produced upon ourselves.

Is that right, or am I misreading you,
because, if this is really what you are refering to as "manifestly true", I could not be more sorry for you, or more adamantly opposed to your point of view.

posted January 12, 2006 01:46 PM            

quote:

---

There's always someone to tell you what you should be, how you should think, how you should react. Problem is, when you've remodeled yourself, they won't like you any better that way either. Chances are, neither will you

---

quote:

---

1.) Regardless of what transformations we undergo, or what transcendence we accomplish, in the course of our terrestrial soujourns, we will necessarily produce the same effect upon others, or, at least, no better effect than we always have produced upon them.

2.) Regardless of what transformations we undergo, or what transcendence we accomplish, in the course of our terrestrial soujourns, we will most likely produce the same effect upon ourselves, or, at least, no better effect than we always have produced upon ourselves.

---

HSC, no reasonable reading of what I said could contain either of the presumptions you have extrapolated from my comments.

Perhaps you're trying too hard HSC. I'm an English speaking earthling who chooses words to convey an intended meaning. Those who attempt to extrapolate beyond what is actually said are apt to mislead themselves.

As for your adamant opposition to what I said and what I may say in the future, I can live with that. On the other note, i.e., the sorrow you presumably feel for my unenlightened state which I extrapolated from what you did say; you can save that for the tourists.

Let me reiterate HSC, the sentences to which you take exception are manifestly true. True within the context of discussion and comments on this thread/string.

posted January 12, 2006 02:27 PM            

Hey baby, you know I loves ya...but...I'd love ya even more if you were....more vocal/quiet, more extrovert/introvert, blond/brunette, decisive/reflective, more spiritual/earthy and the list is endless. Point is that once embarked on that road, there will always be that next so called improvement and another until the very things that person(s) found unique and loveable/likeable about you is destroyed.

And so, as you indicated, essentially telling them to buzz off is well taken. Cause, bottom line, with all those qualities they find lacking, it ain't you they're looking for....babe. Ummm, a little Bob Dylan

posted January 12, 2006 02:46 PM              

thank u all for the welcome

leos usually always think they are right lol....
and have a hard time admitting when they are wrong....

posted January 12, 2006 05:55 PM            

I'm glad to see I was mistaken.

(Obviously, since both my pity and my oppostion were conditional upon a misreading of the text, it was never you - but a mere phantom - I pitied and opposed, so there is clearly nothing for you to "live with", and, if you wanted to disregard my pity, evidently, that's already been taken care of for you.)

I can certainly sympathize with what you are saying. SOMEone will always find fault (although it may not always be the same someone, or the same fault). And, like you said, we will most likely continue to find cause for dissatisfaction with ourselves (albeit a new cause, and not the old one).

But that's the great alchemical work of life, is it not? -
Always finding some new bit of dross to transmute into pure gold!

True, the ideal remains forever out of reach, -
the horizon recedes on the crest of an eternal dusk, -
and, if ever we do seem to attain it,
we promptly aspire to some new height,
but, are we not thrilled to discover new perspectives and frontiers,
each one increasingly more brilliant and more vast!?

And, if the ladder to heaven is infinite in height, what of it?
"Getting there" isnt the point.
What matters is that you are always climbing to new heights;
finding (and acknowledging) new rungs,
and, yes, transcending them!!

"He not busy being born is busy dying." - Bob Dylan

posted January 12, 2006 06:06 PM            

I wouldn't know (about Leos "usually always" thinking they are right).

The only Leo I know fairly well is a humble, soft-spoken, gentle-hearted kitten of a man. He is often insecure and self-doubting, but, then, his Moon is in the 12th house, and Neptune conjuncts his Ascendant. I guess its always worth remembering that we are SO MUCH MORE than just our sun signs. As a Scorpio, I know I sure wish we would.

posted January 12, 2006 11:34 PM            

Agreed also that change, when undertaken must be generated from within and not undertaken to please others but to correct what we see in ourselves.

Yes, we set high goals and falling short we find we have traveled further than if we had set none at all.

No matter our rung on that ladder you mentioned, we find there is a ways to yet go.

"But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep"

But those promises are to ourselves and not to others.

posted January 13, 2006 11:30 AM            

Hey!, You have a Scorpio Ascendant!
Impressive.
And that must mean your Sun and Moon are in the 9th or the 10th?
Doubly Impressive.
What year were you born?

Okay,

You couldn't have known this, but, you are preaching, not just to the converted, but, to the preacher. I'm pretty Aquarian (Aquarius Intercepted in the 1st, Aquarius Moon, Uranus Conjunct Sun/Venus/MC), in addition to being a Scorpio, and going my own way, doing things for my own reasons, in my own good time, is first nature to me. So we are more than agreed, we are sympatico.

Having said that, I do not discount the value of others' perspectives. (Not that you were implying this is what must be done, but, I feel it is worth adding, nonetheless.) I rely to some degree on the perspectives of others, in order to view myself with increasing objectivity. Naturally, I filter all things through myself, and this is key. I will not do something just because someone else tells me I ought to, but, then, neither will I distain the idea, just because it came from someone else. Two heads are often better than one, and, it is not uncommon for an outside party to excercise a degree of detachment and objectivity concerning ourselves, to which we may be, at least, for the moment, unable to attain.

Granted, it is far more common, though, for people to project their own needs onto us, and to offer advice which pertains to their own path in life. For instance, not everyone is a doer. Some are seers, and some are sayers, and there is indeed a kind of "doing" in seeing and saying something aright. Similarly, the extroverted person (or civilization) will tell you that the cure for all ills is to mix with society, while the introvert, if he/she knows him/herself at all well, must know that this is usually the surest means to drain him/herself of vital strength. To each their own. "You can go your own way." (-Fleetwood Mac) Etc.

Although wholeness is important, and we ought never to rest contented on our laurels (for too long), it is good to acknowledge what we each bring to the table. I believe that we are all here for two reasons: To learn something, and to teach something. Once you have discovered your greatest strength, you will find the fullest expression of your being in teaching it to others, and once you have uncovered your greatest weakness, you will experience the fullest expansion of your being in learning it from others. And (if you'll permit me to wax philosophical), I would add that, just because someone has a lot to learn does not mean they have nothing to teach. Likewise, just because a person has much to teach, does not mean they have nothing left to learn. And this is why we must always think for ourselves, regardless of what supposed authority has seemingly sanctified some bit of information. There is wisdom in the fool, and foolishness in the wise man (indeed, only the greatest of us can and will make the greatest mistakes). Everyone who incarnates here has learned something, and everyone still here has something yet to learn.

The point is, just because a suggestion comes from the "outside", doesn't mean it can't resonate with us. (Again, I realize you were not saying anything to the contrary, but it is worth pointing out, so as to leave no room for misunderstanding.) For my part, I am inclined to suspect the truth of the occult doctrine which holds that all things, events, and people, which we encounter in life, are in fact reflections of repressed parts of our own psyche, determined to be reckoned with. Perhaps, when we recieve a suggestion from someone else, it is our own timely way of bringing it to our conscious attention. Fittingly enough, it was a Leo (C.G. Jung) who brought this possibility to my attention.

"Yes, we set high goals and falling short we find we have traveled further than if we had set none at all."

A great point.
And, I would go one step further
(at the risk of falling off a proverbial cliff) in saying that:

It is a far more noble thing,
to aim high and fall short,
than to aim low and hit the target.

"But those promises are to ourselves and not to others."

Well said.