posted January 06, 2006 09:46 AM              

Thanks.

posted January 06, 2006 09:52 AM            

As in- the signs of the moon and mars and aspects they make to each other and other planets would paint a sort of picture of the person's defense mechanism?

Maybe the Ascendant as well?

posted January 06, 2006 10:32 AM              

How would you define a "defense mechanism"?

Wondering,

posted January 06, 2006 10:54 AM              

wilsontc -

I would define the defense mechanism as it relates to astrology as the place we go to hide, after we've reacted. Sort of how Aries/Mars/1st House is all about being out there, yet, it's opposite (Libra/Venus/7th House) is NOT really about the defense mechanism.

It's like the strike of Scorpio/Pluto/8th House, and then where they go to not be seen. It's like, the unwaivering ambition of Capricorn/Saturn/10th House when they use their ambition to hide from themselves. Or like the place where Pisces/Neptune/12th House goes when the world is too overwhelming.

Maybe there is no place where the defense mechanism resides in astrology. Maybe we can only find evidence of what would MAKE us be defensive. Where we actually go may be too elusive.

Does that make more sense?

It can be a place we go to fester, or it can be to feel secure and safe, or it can be to calm ourselves, or it can be to make us feel superior to someone else.

Something to explore...

posted January 06, 2006 11:08 AM            

I would additionally speculate that the Moon is an especially likely candidate, in that it rules "instinctual" response, and we tend to rely on our instincts (a la "fight or flight") when we become defensive.

Also, Saturn has its own methods of concealing and guarding what it is sensitive to.
And Pluto has methods that make Saturn look like Jupiter.

Ultimately, the entire chart (as well as whatsoever cannot be viewed within the chart) comes into play, and, like astro junkie pointed out and explained, each of the corresponding sign/planet/house trinities has their own signature way of dealing with, or avoiding, inner and outer conflicts.

posted January 06, 2006 01:26 PM              

Thanks! That helps me better understand what you mean. The sign Saturn is in in our chart is an indicator of how we defend ourself against others.

Defensively,

Tim

posted January 06, 2006 01:46 PM              

------------------
`Who are you?' said the Caterpillar. This was not an encouraging opening for a conversation. Alice replied, rather shyly, `I--I hardly know, sir, just at present-- at least I know who I WAS when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then.'
~Lewis Carroll

posted January 06, 2006 02:53 PM              

I have to say that if you force me to defend myself it's all Scorpio Moon and Acsendant fire and brimstone, backed by Aquarian Mercury logic. Mars in Gemini gives me the ability to cut people in half with words.

I have a big conscience though to counter-balance this. I hate hurting people unnessecarily.

Swerve

posted January 06, 2006 08:21 PM            

Swerve, your response got me thinking about my own defenses..
hsc is probably right- the entire chart, or certain elements may contribute when it comes to different individuals, and in different situations.

If I become defensive due to an attack- it's my Mars in Scorpio that will most likely respond.

If I feel insecure for some reason- Libra rising will kick in.

If I feel uncomfortable- like I am being probed.. Mercury in Aquarius- I will say something shocking.

posted January 06, 2006 09:47 PM              

*** I would define the defense mechanism as it relates to astrology as the place we go to hide, after we've reacted. ***
.. reacted to what though ? ...

my immediate thought was the moon ... then saturn came to mind .. .. then on a personal 'how do i react?' query .. answer would be a combination of ascendant /sun/moon/merc and mars .. overall .. trying to think of various 'defence mechanism kick in ' situations .. .. ..( 'venus' was originaly edited out .. but am now rethinking that one ) ..

.. and like thoughts on the thread about 'guys and painful memories' .. ruminated about .. but alas not typed .. ... .. the mercury placement would play a vital role methinks .. also would have thought mars would play a role in the defence setup ..

*** Maybe we can only find evidence of what would MAKE us be defensive.****
.. depends on what we are reacting to ... .... in some cases defence may be to seek total seclusion ... ... in other cases .. overt action may be needed ...

so reaction to .. emotional hurt ?? ... physical provocation ?? .. verbal attack?? .. day to day wear and tear ?? .. life ??

.. got me thinking about saturn now .. 3rd house libra here .. .. well one reaction is to focus on keeping my thoughts balanced ... well if not .. then the scales tip resulting in bad decisions ...

so given the general vibes around lindaland .. are we talking defence mechanisms to emotional hurt ??
or are the barbarian hordes at the doorstep ???

posted January 06, 2006 10:03 PM            

When I go on the defence, I get really critical, blunt and nit-picky. Basically just spiteful and mean.

posted January 07, 2006 11:14 AM              

Example: If the Ruler of your Ascendant is Mercury, it scans for anything it can relate to in your Chart, and uses it as the vehicle for the defense mechanism.

So if your Ascendant is in Gemini, your Mercury would likely be the vehicle, and/or, any Signs Ruled by Mercury, such as Virgo influences, PLUS the House Ruling Mercury, which is the 6th House.

Because the Ascendant is how we appear to others, and although it is part of us and shapes our personalilty, it is the first face others see. So if your Mercury is in Sagittarius, you'll probably be very verbal in the defense process. But if it's in Pisces, you may go more inward.

If the Ascendant is in Aries, it may try to connect to your Mars, and if your Mars is in Libra, you may try to find the most fair way to deal with it. If your Mars is in Capricorn, you will be more straight forward and results oriented.

I'm sort of leaning towards this right now. But I'd strongly consider the Degree that the Ascendant is. If the majority of the 1st House is in a Sign other than the Ascendant, then you may lean more towards THAT Planet.

Example: My Taurus Asc is 29.50 Degrees, which means the majority my 1st House is in Gemini, so I would be more likely to use the influence of my MERCURY, and my 6th House would be affected.

I mean, I'm not trying to come up with a cut and dry solution. Ideally, you would look at yourself and see if your personal experiences are consistent with these ideas. It's up for discussion!

posted January 07, 2006 11:38 AM              

I agree with the Asc. theory and Saturn too. Asc. is all about how we present ourselves to the world and Saturn is all about insecurities. So if someone pushes these buttons we tend to automatically restore that by being true to our Asc. and Saturn. I think the Moon comes in in an inward way, not directly, the moon is how you defend yourself infront of yourself not others. It is the second line of defense, you take care of outside factors through Asc., Saturn, Pluto and then you take care of yourself through the moon.

I support the Asc. ruler theory in signs, Asc. Leo, ruler Sun in Gemini...so defense mechanism comes masked in a typical Leo way (arrogant) with Gemini content (cutting words). I would say also 3rd house planets (Self Expression, the mind) play a role, if you have Pluto or Mars there, you can be really hurtful through your words or whatever mechanism you choose to defend yourself through. 3rd house planets can turn their ugly side in support of defense. I would presume even if Venus or Jupiter in the third, they can use their beauty as a defense mechanism.

posted January 07, 2006 03:10 PM              

.. certainly is at that ...

.. i'd say it might change with age regarding the ascendant and the sun .. are we not trying to find our sun through the various aspects .. i.e. as paths towards the sun placement .. i've heard it said that over 40 we start to show the sun more .. or maybe the sun shines a little better when integrated with the ascendant ...

.. just been looking at the aspects in my chart .. via the grid layout .. begining to see this defence system as hierarchical .. in a sense .. projected thru the ascendant .. .. am trying to think of some scenerios that have come my way .. 'n see how they relate to the astro setup ...
.. defence reactions go deep down to our primeval level .. .. i'm thinking sun .. as in 'initial reaction' .. .. .. .. it's usualy to assume a rocklike stillness for me (taur sun ) .. what happens next depends on the situation .. but in anycase initialy it's like a cold stillness .. and i guess that is intialy projected thru my cancer ascendant .. hence the coldness i guess .. then the moon pops in (gem) .. so mix in detachment that .. i guess would add a bit more chill thru the ascendant ..
moon ruled asc plus moon in 12th .. mmmmm ..

posted January 08, 2006 03:30 PM            

it's a great topic, but also not a 'light' one. dunno why everybody thinks they can "pretend" to knkw what they're talking about when discussing psychology *and football

so: let's start at the begining:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Defence mechanisms are a set of unconscious ways to protect one's personality from unpleasant thoughts and realities which may otherwise cause anxiety. The notion of defence mechanism is an integral part of the psychoanalytic theory. Although often described as detrimental and negative ways that an individual deals with overwhelming stressors; these mechanisms can also be applied positively when dealing with conflicts. Used sparingly, they help people face difficult life situations. However, a defence mechanism can also lead to a neurosis if it causes a person to adopt ineffectual or inappropriate coping strategies.

there are more then 20 of them; check them out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism

each of them appears differently in a chart. examples:
*Repression* - planets in the 12th.
*sublimation* planet in the 12th ruling the 3rd (try communication), the 5th (art, sports) etc.
*idealisation* Mercury conj Venus or Neptune.
*projection* - planets in the 7th - that energy is projected onto to others.
rationalization - a retrograde mercury, ora virgo one, etc

some defence mec aren't straight forward; one should understand their inner logis in order first.

as a rule, planets in the 12th and retrogarde ones, hard aspects between planets, also the network u find around the relevant houses:
2nd: self-esteem and self-worth; the 8th-valuing and respecting others.
5th-11th: giving - receiving love
the sexual profile: the 5th and the 8th
the 7th as what one projects onto others

example: Moon-Saturn conj in the 2nd house, taurus; retrograde Virgo Mercury in the 6th.

worries about self-worth (2nd Saturn), controlling the fear of not being loved (Sat-Moon), and *rationalization* - Rx Mercury:feeling don't matter, you MUST Reason your way around + must prove yourself (saturn rules the 10th, cap) in order to be loved (sublimation).

see there also the "I'm not loved cos I'm imperfect" (Virgo = criticism RX= of self Mercury); must work harder (the6th) in order to prove myself...