posted January 24, 2006 01:01 AM              

BML is the one found on the astro pulldown
DML is the one found using h13
Asteroid is found using 1181

??

If thats so, then..

--My 1181 conj his BML and is the same sign as his Sun and DML
--His 1181 is in sign opposite my Moon and Venus
--My BML is in the 5th and his Sun has an opposite correlation of being in Aqua, same goes w/my DML as well
--His BML and DML are in sign opposite my ASC

Is this what you were looking for AJ?

Also how would natal conjunctions to any of the Liliths be interpreted? Should I re-read some of the above posts??

TY crissy & AJ 4 the time spent on this topic

posted January 24, 2006 01:06 AM              

quote:

---

Example for House:

If his Dark Moon Lilith is in his 4th House, the 4th House Rules the Moon, so you would look to see if your Sun or Asc is in Cancer.

---

OK, chrissy mentions BML as being on the astro pulldown. Are you referring here to h13?

:::editing:::

His
1181-9th/Jupiter-Is my Sun/ASC in Sadge? No, but my osc Lilith [h13] & Lilith from pulldown are

His
osc Lilith [h13] & Lilith from pulldown-4th/Moon-Is my Sun/ASC in Cancer? No

My
1181-8th/Pluto-Is his Sun/ASC in Scorp? Yes

My
osc Lilith [h13] & Lilith from pulldown-5th/Sun-Is his Sun/ASC in Leo? No, but it is in the opp sign

posted January 24, 2006 05:44 AM              

I corrected that, so you can see that now.

posted January 24, 2006 05:53 AM              

I hesitiate to try to refer anyone to interpretations of Aspects to "lilith" because of the inconsistencies out there.

What I would do is take into consideration everything you know thusfar, then define your true "lilith", then combine that definition with what you know instinctively about Planetary Aspects already.

posted January 24, 2006 09:33 AM              

here is what i understand after doing some research yesterday:

• BML is what you get when you select "lilith" from the pull-down menu on astro.com. this is the lilith that is otherwise known as mean BML or the mean apogee -- it is just the average daily motion of black moon lilith or something like that

• what they call true BML, or the oscillating apogee, is what you get when you type in "h13" to the asteroids panel on astro.com...this point actually fluctuates a lot, as much as 30 degrees from the mean BML, and it retrogrades often...i dont know why this one isnt used more, but it's not

(the site i found yesterday that i am still searching for the link to suggested that for some people, who have the true BML very close to the mean BML, their experience of lilith energy will be very narrow, and for other people, who have true BML & mean BML further apart, they experience a broader range of lilith energy.)

• DML or dark moon lilith is the second moon supposedly circling Earth, a mysterious dark moon that is only seen on rare dates when it is opposite the sun or when its shadowy silhouette crosses in front of the sun. although its existence has not been verified, those astronomers who claim to have viewed it say it is one-fourth the size of our familiar moon and three times as far away. it takes 119 days to orbit earth, about ten days per sign. supposedly sighted as long ago as 1618, this body came to broader attention through the work of astrologer sepharial in 1918, and more recently through the writings of delphine jay, who also published an ephemeris for the dark moon lilith. i am searching for an on-line ephemeris for this body, will let you guys know what's up.

• and last but not least asteroid 1181 lilith is what you get when you type in "1181" to the asteroids panel on astro.com

ah! here that darn link is:
http://www.mountainastrologer.com/hunter.html

i like sue simmons' site too, very much, i think AJ posted her article and all that jazz but here's the group site just in case:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3Liliths/message/12

anyways hope this helps you all!

-chrissy

posted January 24, 2006 09:56 AM              

The information is soooooo scattered out there that it seems that there is not any real agreement on the influence Lilith has within your chart.

Personally, I think of her as a seductress in many ways....darkly feminine and also somehow straddling the thin line between good and evil. Perhaps enticing in some manner, maybe reaching for something which needs 'pulling forward'...and offering a feminine touch as a guide. Just one idea that comes to mind....

What comes to your mind about Lilith??

posted January 24, 2006 11:21 AM              

im glad we got that all figured out.

anyway, gosh, lilith energy is indeed confusing. here is what i think...

1st off, i agree with sue simmons, i think the TRUE BML (or oscillating apogee, the one you get by typing in "h13" to the asteroids panel) works better. of course, in my chart the true BML is at 11 libra conjunct my AC at 12 libra. maybe that is why when i discovered where true bml was in my chart, i immediately clicked with that placement (over my mean BML placement of 21 virgo in the 12th).

sue simmons states that BML is supposed to be a negative place, a point that makes things extra difficult. if this is the case, i think perhaps this is why i am sometimes "led into" difficult relationships (true BML in libra, libra = relationships) that directly affect me, my sense of self (true BML on Asc, Asc = self). i dont know, though. i definitely *feel* this point conjunct my ascendant, but i dont know how to describe it. i guess i often find myself experiencing difficulty...i struggle a lot.

now my true BML also happens to be retrograde (it is for a lot of people). sue simmons suggests an rx true BML describes a past life by sign and house. i dont know what kind of past life a true bml on the asc would describe...maybe a past life where my relationship with myself was disastrous...? no wait, that doesnt make much sense. not sure about that.

oh wow, i just took a peek at the "Marie Dominique Villard on Black Moon Lilith" section on sue simmons' site (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3Liliths/) and i saw this interpretation...(keep in mind she only uses the true BML)...

In Cardinal Signs : We must start something but life and other people will decide in place of us if our initiatives will be realized or not.

In Air Element : Our mind, our thoughts must change, our contacts must be reviewed.

so keeping this in mind, i would think with my BML in the cardinal sign libra that i need to get the action (cardinal) rolling in my relationships (libra) but it is *others* who end up calling the shots (sheesh, that's eerie).

and then also, my true bml being in an air sign indicates it's my mind that must change, perhaps learn to adapt or whatever..

anyway im not sure i did too good there....but i gave it a shot!

what about you? anyone else have thoughts on their own placements? what do you all think of your true BML vs your mean BML?

-chrissy

posted January 24, 2006 03:35 PM              

4. DARK MOON LILITH

This is a "second moon" to the Earth. It is a non-reflective body (hence the name Dark Moon) that orbits the Earth about every 119 days. It was first sighted in the 1600's. Some people don't believe the Dark Moon is a planetary body because the orbit is too regular. It could be some type of equipment, but since it was first sighted in
the 1600's, it is nothing modern. Some people think it is a ball of space dust, which would explain why it doesn't reflect the Sun as
other Moons do. For this reason a lot of astrologers will not use it. But if it works in the chart and it is not a planetary body,
then that means that all kinds of space debris could have some influence. Every once in a while someone on the internet comes up
with the thought that the Dark Moon could actually be the asteroid Cruithne but it isn't. Their orbits are vastly different.

The glyph is a circle or zero with a diagonal line like a forward slash,cutting through it. In writing use Dark Moon Lilith at first,
then Dark Moon or DML to avoid confusion.

Dr. Georges Waldemath, a German astronomer, was the first to document it in 1898. The astrologer Sepharial compiled an ephemeris using his data, whichDelphine Jay, Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson and Mae Wilson-Ludlum
all used fortheir Lilith ephemerides. Sepharial's calculations differ slightly from the original Waldemath calculations. Solar
Fire, one of the few programs to include Dark Moon Lilith uses the original Waldemath calculations and has previously agreed with the Swiss Ephemeris calculations. However, the Swiss Ephemeris has changed their calculation so that it no longer matches Solar Fire. I asked Solar Fire mfgrs. which version is correct. Graham Dawson, programmer for Solar Fire said, "I now believe that the data used by the Swiss Ephemeris calculation of Waldemath's Dark Moon is probably a more accurate representation of what Waldemath actually intended than what is currently used in Solar Fire.... I originally supplied
Dieter Kock (a Swiss Ephemeris author) with my copy of Waldemath's original tabulations. After some discussion with Dieter, I agreed
with him that his own interpretation (which differed slightly from the one I included in Solar Fire) was a better one."

now for the good part: it turns out you can find your DML (or dark moon lilith, NOT to be confused with true BML or mean BML) using astro.com --

just go to the extended chart selection and under the asteroids panel type in "h58". that's it! if you click on the list of hypothetical planets you will see it there, listed as "Waldemath's Black Moon" or something like that.

there you have it! you CAN figure all the liliths using astro.com!

posted January 24, 2006 04:16 PM              

quote:

---

Delphine Jay says Dark Moon Lilith is a place where you must operate impersonally because operating personally there will never be successful.

---

posted January 24, 2006 05:41 PM              

I haven't had a chance to test the process you set forth for Dark Moon Lilith on astro.com, but if it's right, I give you huge congrats and thanks.

Arnicka -

As it pertains to the Asc, I'm trying to visualize what this means. I'm really not sure. Do you feel that you carry DML in your personae? I mean, I don't know how to qualify that. You would probably be the only person who can sort through that.

posted January 24, 2006 10:51 PM              

So I found there is a 5 Degrees difference between my lilith from their pulldown menu, and the new "h13 Osculating Lunar Apogee ("True" Lilith / Black Moon)". They are both in Leo in the 4th House for me, but, I already knew that.

I also did a test to see if putting a checkmark in the ALWAYS USE TRUE NODE box would make a difference, and it does NOT change the Degrees AT ALL.

So there you have it guys. It's bitter sweet synchronicity, because just as someone decided to pull up this old thread, astro.com had finally tightened up on their attitude toward the true lilith!

posted January 25, 2006 10:53 AM              

so what did your DML (dark moon lilith) -- the one you get when you type in "h58" to the asteroids panel end up being?

mine is at 1 aqua in the 4th. it doesnt aspect anything at all and even though it is angularly placed, i dont think its important in my chart.

the orb between your mean BML & true BML is pretty narrow, 5° you said right? i really wish i could find that link, i had this one link with an article that suggested people with a narrow orb between true & mean BML would have a more focused expression of lilith energy. i will keep looking for it.

the orb between my true & mean is very wide, mean BML is at 21 virgo in the 12th, and true is at 11 libra conjunct my uranus-Asc conjunction at 12 libra. that article seemed to say that for someone like me who has so wide an orb between the two, i would have a much broader range of lilith energy at my disposal (something like that)...and it seemed to say that if you have this wider orb betwen the two, you are often going to identify with the true BML over the mean when you discover the difference.

is your true BML retrograde? mine is. sue simmons talks about past lifes with an rx true BML, what do you think about this?

anyhoo....glad we got this figured out!

posted January 25, 2006 02:35 PM              

My h58 comes out to Pisces in the 10th House. But I don't even want to worry about that AT ALL. Enough trouble focusing on what we know thusfar about the true lilith. Have my hands full there, and place most faith there.

My having a True BML with a "more focused expression of lilith energy" ... hmmmmm ... doesn't surprise me at all. Not at all. And since they are in Leo in my 4th House, it's f**ked with me SO bad, especially since my NN is in Leo in the 4th, the place I'm tring to get to! AND ESPECIALLY when it comes to marriage, home and family relations. There are a few other indications of this challenge elsewhere in my Chart as well. My jinxed 4th House (no really) IS THE THEME of this lifetime for me. Even if I'm fully capable to being Miss Independent Career Girl, the 4th House issues always pull me back - over and over again.

Plus, having my NN in Leo in the 4th Conjunct my Uranus in Leo in the 4th is the eternal wrench thrown in.

Oh, and no, my True BML is NOT Retrograde.

posted January 25, 2006 06:20 PM              

well, i dont know that this helps...but sue simmons' site talks about how you gotta first delineate what's aready going on in the house that true BML is in before you think about what she adds to the mix, right? i'm familiar with uranus prominently placed, too, as it's on my Asc...so i'm taking the liberty of sharing this list i've made of uranus rulerships (i use "the rulership book" by rex e. bills), as i've been working on interpreting my own true BML placement conjunct my uranus-Asc conjunction.

URANUS:

abberations
one's constructive & mechanical ability
acceleration
agitation
abnormalities
advanced thought
aloofness
alteration
amazement
assertiveness
audacity
astonishment
autonomy
the bizarre
brotherhood
the law of chance
change
complexity
compulsion
contradictions
cooperation
curious things
the different
discovery
distant things
divorces
eccentricities
the erratic
evolvement
extraordinary
good and bad extremes
fortuities
uncertain fortunes
fait and desertion of one's faith
feminism
go-getters
healing
gambling
impulsiveness
intuition, intuitive intellect & receptivity
irregularities
incongruity
inconsistency
interference
personal magnetism
lawlessness
mental specialists
insubordination
new teachings & occupations
nervous persons
overturning
paradoxes
obliqueness
the progressive
perplexity
peculiar
pccultism
reformation
reorganization
reversal
revulsion
science in general
sarcasm, satire
spasms
strangeness
free thought
transitions
uncommon
unexpected
unconventional
unforeseen
upheaval
uprootings
variety
vicissitudes
ventures
versatility
vehicles in general
one's wishes
strong will
wonderful things
writer's and writings, technical
zealots

AND...i thought i'd share with you some rulerships for leo, since sue suggests that first you look at the house where BML and then the sign..

LEO:

passionate amativeness
places of amusement
arrogance
betting
children in general
circuses
creativity
cinemas
courtships
entertainment
gambling
greatness
heart weakness
fevers
love affairs
pleasure
romance
self-expression
speculation
ornamentation
positions of prominence

AND 4th house rulerships!

FOURTH HOUSE:

one's accumulations
one's birthplace
breasts
one's burial
gains from contracts
dwellings
end of life, end of undertakings
domesticity
agriculture
digestion
estates
losses from gambling
hidden things
one's house
one's inherited tendencies
gardens
land
parents in general
private life
rest
self-rehabilitation
personal secrets
wombs
superstitions
gains from writing

posted January 25, 2006 09:11 PM              

Any ideas?

posted January 26, 2006 01:21 AM              

I think one general way to look at it would to remember that the Moon will bring out the emotional personalities of lilith, and lilith will bring out bane emotions.

And as far as "dark" seeming so *dark* - it's the essence of the lilith's themselves which creates the darkness. But yeah, it can be dark. But it can also be powerful. The myths of "lilith" should be studied too. I feel like lilith is a compilation of myths, some of which deem her a jinx, of sorts.

But to keep it straight in my head, I think of the mythical lilith who refused to be Adam's wife. I KNOW this is not the end of the story, but to remember the essence. It might have been seen as a jinx to Adam and society, but she was like the first Martha Jane ("Calamity Jane") Cannary.

She's powerful in her own right, but scary to many others because she doesn't follow the rules as other "ladies" do. By proxy, she never claims her true power in one lifetime. Therefore, she remains a mystery to many.