posted May 28, 2006 05:44 PM              

I really would be interested to see what others think, especially the ladies.

When does caring and protecting become smothering and possessive? That dreaded word "clingy" seems to haunt me, and I'm never sure it's totally accurate with me.

I have a noticed a trend that it takes even good friends years to really "get me" with a eureka moment when we have maybe a particularly deep conversation or something.

Maybe that indicates why my intensity has been so misunderstood in the past in relationships. I get told to lighten up a lot, but these people don't realise I'm already holding back. Oh, if they only knew....

posted May 28, 2006 06:17 PM            

There is a definate difference between intensity and obsession, posessiveness, clingy.

I am a very intense individaul, and I, like you, have at times in my life experienced a kind of "ephiphany" where someone who I have been relating to finally "gets" me, but not usually. People who are going to get me get me from the get go and vice-versa.

As far as obsession, I have been and still am the victim of a very obesessed individual and our relationship broke up a year and a half ago due to his clinginess, posessiveness, obsessiveness and to this day, he still haunts me. He claims he loves me, cares for me and my kids, wants the best for me. I have told him that if he really loves me he will respect my decision to part ways (we tried the friend thing) once and for all and he should leave me be, but according to him, respect is not part of his defination of "love." Just last week, I could not do my yard work without him driving by and yelling out the window "I love you", my youngest daughter could not walk to a friend's house without him following her through the neighborhood. In his distorted way of thinking, he is being fatherly and drives by my house constantly because he "cares", yea right.

I have said on this fourm before that I believe the ultimate form of love is letting go. Letting another individual human be who he/she will be to do what he/she will do.

I am big on autonomy in a realationship. I care for people deeply, probably too deeply where some are concerned, but I am big on respect and if one can not respect another then what kind of love is that?

You can care for and protect someone without smothering them. I think alot of times the smothering, clingy, obsessive behavior is a projection of insecurity on the actor's part. With my psycho ex he has a Cancer Sun, Venus and Mars all in the 8th and a Scorpio rising. To me that spells, insecurity combined with issues of wielding power in relationships. I have a Scorpio rising (my intense and dark side) but with a Pisces Sun and Venus in Pisces sitting on the door of Aries and Jupiter, Mars and Mercury and Saturn in Aquarius, I NEED autonomy and independence and the clingy, posessive and obsessive crap drives me crazy!

Again I will state, love is letting go, obsession is when you can not.

posted May 28, 2006 06:24 PM              

Well, I'm nowhere near the category of your ex. I admit the boundaries can become temporarily blurred, but I NEVER forget they are there. I've been blessed with a conscience and a very empathetic nature, so if I hurt someone I feel it too. Can lead to some toxic guilt, but means I have a clear moral compass at all times.

Maybe pople from the outside don't see this, especially if they have experienced gentlemen like your ex there.

Once bitten, twice armed with a handgun mentality?

Oh, and although only recently did I truly grasp it, the "letting go" side of things has sunk in for good. Not nice having to do it, but nessecary.

posted May 28, 2006 06:40 PM            

Yes, I have had to experience the letting go from both ends, wanting to be let go and letting go(the majority the latter.) I do not talk out of my rear so to speak, I really believe that if you really care for someone, love someone, you have to do as they ask and respect their wishes. I have cried many a tear in letting a particular Aquarian male, who I love to this day, go.

Sorry if I sound a little bitter, being the object of obsession sucks, it is like one's individuality is taken away, especially if one is as darn independant as I am.

I have known a few females that really like being smothered, but in observing these girls, I have noticed that they have little individuality and are very insecure and have big co-dependant issues.

Keep up the good work of noting boundaries. We fish folk can become without boundaries in a heartbeat. I have learned boundaries the hard way in many of my personal relationships. I live floating here and there and it is real easy for me to just float on into the wrong place at the wrong time!

Sending Peace, Love and Light,

posted May 28, 2006 06:55 PM            

I have Cancer Sun,Venus and Ascendant. I have had problems with boundaries in the past and I tend to be the last one in any relationship to feel smothered, especially if I am truly in love (my version...it takes a lot for me to "fall in love" although I love very, very easily.)

I can be obsessive in my intimate relationships, although it usually manifests itself through thinking and wanting to communicate about issues. If someone asks me to leave them alone, then I do. But I'll still think about them - ha.

I agree that the biggest act of love is letting someone go so that they can live out their life the way they were meant to. It's the hardest thing to do, although I think maybe in the end it turns out to be a gift for both parties. There is a freedom in doing it once you get through the pain.

As for obsessive and clingy and their respective definitions I think that everyone has their own idea of that would be. The watery people I know do not consider me clingy but those with no water in their charts tend to think of some of my actions as very clingy. Perspective.

Love

BTW Swerve...Did you ever read Zen and the Art of Falling in Love? Whenever I need a sense of detachment to work through my stuff that books is helpful in the extreme for me.

posted May 28, 2006 07:03 PM            

I bought that book, but lost interest when I got the impression that she is trying to get one on the path to opening oneself to being able to love, and that I do not have a problem with, probably should shut down! HA!

Could you please expand on the principals that helped you so much?

Thank you,

posted May 28, 2006 07:06 PM              

This is, I believe the emotional dialogue of obsession. Someone thought they loved you, but they got to know you better and realized they did not. They have to change their mind! They have to LOVE ME because I cannot go on if I am not lovable deep down inside.

There are two fundamental flaws in this dialogue

1. It assumes that we are only worthy if other people say so

2. It doesn't take into account that other people have their own issues and challenges to overcome in order to experience love.

posted May 28, 2006 07:51 PM              

Now, I have to question whether this was co-dependance on my part, but I really don't think so because it was something I deliberately chose to do rather than felt compelled.

However, the kick in the teeth was that when the shoe was on the other foot I was labelled as clingy and possessive, or antoher ex said she just wasn't looking for anything "deep" right now, but then while with someone else confessing to several people that she thought things could have worked out between us, and the guy she was with was just "easier" because he was superficial (and also worked in the same building as me so everyone knew, THAT hurt).

Anyway, I just wonder what the different definitions of obsessed and clingy etc are, because while I see all the sense in the world in Lioneye's post, I can overlook this if I care about someone. Can't other people and talk about it...Maybe I expect too much???

posted May 28, 2006 08:01 PM            

quote:

---

Again I will state, love is letting go, obsession is when you can not.

---

posted May 28, 2006 08:03 PM              

I'm still working on my little paranoia's here and there because I believe this is important to allow my Gemini man all the space he needs (and with my moon in the 12th house I also need alone time... in fact we both have the moon in the 12th house). For a while I sacrificed my need for 'alone time' because I was insecure, but I now realise that we both need this and having our own space is actually what keeps us together!

I have read that Scorpio's really need to have a Taurean in their lives, because the loyalty of a Taurean is what Scorpio's need to not be misunderstood, or to have any possessiveness come to the forefront. Taurus understands Scorpio in this way.

posted May 28, 2006 09:13 PM              

Swerve, why you weren't given the same type of feedback when the shoe was on the other foot - I don't know for sure. I suspect she may not have felt herself capeable of the task. She didn't have it in her to give, only to receive. Few can hold their own with a Scorpio's particular brand of love. I suppose that's why Scorpio-Scorpio couples are the most often found same sign couples, statistically speaking. (I know you're a Pisces, but you have strong Scorpio in your chart too, right? The two energies likely compound each other)

GL75 makes a good point too. Scorpio & Taurus have simular love natures, in terms of possessiveness.

posted May 28, 2006 10:01 PM            

I love your Fishly conversations!!

Swerve, for your question "When does caring and protecting become smothering and possessive?" my off-the-cuff response is -- It's In The Eye of the Beholder, much as lioneye said..... I have a feeling that both "obsession" and "intensity", as well as “smothering” and “possessive” would be defined totally differently by each person at this forum.

With Pluto on my Asc and my Moon in the 8th, I appreciate and value intensity in my friends, and I can stand my ground where others might run for cover -- I seek out friends whose level of intensity is near my own.

Swerve, possibly the people who have told you to lighten up are not people you want to spend a lot of time around.....??
Or are these the Sags who are your best match (over in FFA ) ?!?

Hippi ~ you wrote ”People who are going to get me get me from the get go and vice-versa.” Yes!! I feel the same. I’m not going to suddenly grow on someone who doesn’t “get me” in the beginnings of connection….. ”You can care for and protect someone without smothering them.” Yes, but again, this is completely in the eye and perception of the recipient. What you may think is normal interest and caring may be overwhelming to your friend/partner.....

Where does each person draw the line between comfortable protectiveness, or dominating OVER-protectiveness??
Where does each person draw the line between fascination and OBSESSION??
Where does each person draw the line between being comfortably embraced and being CLUNG TO??
I don’t know that there is a “comfy” side to being smothered

In the interest of pinning down these slippery fishies here (my Fish Moon included ) here are some synonyns/definitions:

Obsession = mania, fascination, fixation, passion

Cling = adhere, cleave, stick, grasp, embrace, entwine

Possessive = jealous, domineering, controlling, overprotective

Smother = suffocate, stifle, choke, asphyxiate, overpower, repress, restrain

posted May 28, 2006 10:18 PM              

quote:

---

That's true - it's all relative, isn't it? You're only clingy if you need a higher level of togetherness/affection than your mate does. But, if they need more than you, than THEY are the clingy one.

---

You're right Lioneye!

posted May 28, 2006 10:18 PM            

I LOVE your definations!!!!!!!!!!!!

T.

posted May 28, 2006 11:01 PM              

Second instance, which was much more than infatuation and more of love, I never have let go of her (from my mind). I think it is not to the extent of clinginess nor possessiveness, at the same time I haven¡¦t ¡¥let go¡¦ like some of you have said. Its difficult for me to understand how two people who love each other have to separate. (I think when we separated she still loved me and it was just the circumstances.. maybe that¡¦s the reason that I couldn¡¦t have let go). I tried all things to bring her back at that time. I reasoned that if I love her I have to give everything. However I think it may not be obsessive behavior as I believed that she loved me. And letting go in such cases is more difficult. Maybe if someone can¡¦t let go after knowing that other person doesn¡¦t have love for him, then it falls into obsession area.

Swerve,
¡§the kick in the teeth was that when the shoe was on the other foot I was labelled as clingy¡¨ .. I think not everyone is of understanding nature. I think we (Pisces) might understand things better and the same may not come true from others ƒ¼
That¡¦s one thing I try to make myself understand that all are not like us, not all do what we would do or what we expect them to do. I try to idealize things, however I realize same it not true for others.

However I do get jealous and not sure if it would result in possessiveness. And based on these jealous feelings, I fear that in a close relation would I act too possessiveness or normal.

V

posted May 29, 2006 02:58 AM            

Although I see the truth in this, I am stuck in the middle myself. I have let the person I am in love with go because I felt it was for the best, but I have not let him go in my heart, even though I am trying daily to do so.

I'm not obsessed with him, but I am finding releasing him to be one of the hardest things I have ever had to do.

Hippichick ~ I think the way that I perceive the book is that she is trying to show the difference between romanticized love and a deeper, perhaps more universal love. Romanticized love tends to be more about attachment whereas in the Buddhist tradition, one should attempt to love without attachment.

My greatest issue in love relationships (as well as many people's I suspect) is loving people unconditionally and without expectations, and thus without attachment.

Obviously, there are always going to be certain conditions with which we should not stay in a relationship (ie - abuse, etc,) however, the idea is to be able to still see how people's pain can both affect us and effect change in our lives and help us to learn to love more deeply, even when we have to move on without them.

Everyone has a different idea of love, but I think that to some degree we are all influenced by romantic ideals. I know I am.

Swerve ~ I have tried doing the exact same thing as you in terms of making men I have been with more relaxed if they suffered at all from any insecurities. Like you, I also questioned where that non-judgment was coming from and I have to agree that I really just understand that sometimes people have fear from a whole host of issues. Choosing to make someone feel a little more secure by simply communicating is healthy, in my view.

LionEye ~ I do agree with you too when you say that an unhealthy dialogue would be considered obsessive, however I think that so many people (...everyone...?) struggle with the fear that they are not worthy of love at some point in their lives.

"It's too much of a responsibility to hold someone else's happiness in the palm of your hand"

True enough. But I guess this is where communication should come in. Why be frightened if one person's way of love expression is so different from our own? I think talking is good. (As you can tell from this really long post.)

Love

posted May 29, 2006 03:36 AM              

This is the part that relates to me. This is the ex-Cancer that I don't want to bang on about again. Being called possesive and clingy by a Crab is just about the most peculiar thought to get your head around (Gemini Moon though, and a young girl to boot).

GeminiLover - "I have read that Scorpio's really need to have a Taurean in their lives, because the loyalty of a Taurean is what Scorpio's need to not be misunderstood, or to have any possessiveness come to the forefront. Taurus understands Scorpio in this way."

I have often thought a Taurus (or Pisces actually, or Scorpio obviously, though maybe two much INTENSITY) girl would be the best for me. I have a friend who is getting married soon who is a lady Bull, and she just gets me, sarcasm and all. In my other thread I was delighted to here Secret Garden telling me the Gemini I have been in love with for 4 years with no relationship yet is more Taurean than Geminian, and I feel that as well. Its the only kind of girl I can just relax with, the intensity just seems to vanish.

Love - "Romanticized love tends to be more about attachment whereas in the Buddhist tradition, one should attempt to love without attachment."

Yes, attachment is the one thing I have been contemplating lately. In fact, it spreads a whole lot further than just the arena of love. I wonder though, love without attachment - where would all that gut-wrenching passion go? Would it be more a love of friends? Is it an Aquarian conspiracy? (I have Mercury and Venus in Aqua)

Clinginess being subjective? Thats what I suspected but started this thread to find out, that VERY point. Seems the word "clingy" and "possesive" are thrown about with wild abandon these days, and not always with considered observation. Like putting a lable on someone that might as well read "damaged".

Some fantastic replies ladies - Thanks!

Swerve

posted May 29, 2006 01:47 PM              

I think I'm scared to fall in love again now. I go out with my friends and they chat to girls and get their numbers and hook up and they all seem so happy and confident. I just stand around or wait until I get drunk before just looking at them and saying nothing. My friends mock me saying I haven't "got game" or "we don't pull when you're around", which IS true, but not because of the reasons they think. That makes a diffcult situation unbearable, especially as the best way to meet girls is through your friends and the stories they get put them off immediately.

I am terrified of my own emotions. I have absolutely no control over them, just the actions , so I won't call if I shouldn't and I certainly wouldn't start stalking someone. But, I will check on Friends Reunited to see how shes doing from time to time.

I am just so sensitive its painful and no-one understands that if its a guy. I feel so cowardly as well, not wanting to be a victim of life, but the pain is just so great and I have known so much I can't face anymore, I know what I would do if another relationship broke down and I don't want to consider that.

I think I know that I have obsessive tendencies but that I would never hurt anyone emotionally or physically, it would never happen.

What to do with all this emotion inside? I feel like a pressure cooker ready to explode. I have baggage like anyone else, but as I systematically work through my **** I find that the emotions are actually NATURAL to me, I just am that intense, and I know that is too much for any woman to want to handle. Its very upsetting.

posted May 29, 2006 01:55 PM              

Don't try to change who you are - just channel it in a more rewarding way.

Just a suggestion

posted May 29, 2006 02:02 PM              

Yes I have actually. Its even been suggested that this is my correct path in almost all readings I've had. I agree with you about the self-conscious part, and it annoys me that it always comes back to that. It feels like over-indulgence. I think living on my own and spending 99% of my time on my own causes this and over-analysis.

Another friend of mine has offered me the chance to move in with him and some other people I know. I think this would be a nessecary move.

posted May 29, 2006 02:04 PM            

I have been studying holistic health and energetics for the last few years and it has honestly helped me to begin to transmute my enery and find an outlet for my sensitiviy.

posted May 29, 2006 02:18 PM              

I suppose a body's energy is all linked right? Besides I love feeling of giving pleasure or healing someone like this.

Really good suggestion, thanks again!

posted May 29, 2006 02:26 PM            

quote:

---

What to do with all this emotion inside? I feel like a pressure cooker ready to explode. I have baggage like anyone else, but as I systematically work through my **** I find that the emotions are actually NATURAL to me, I just am that intense, and I know that is too much for any woman to want to handle. Its very upsetting.

---

Suggesting patience is not always a well-received suggestion , but I do suggest it -- and I think lioneye has the perfect outlet for your depth and sensitivity: helping others who are struggling. What can you do to move in this direction?? I subscribe to an EFT newsletter: here's the link --
http://www.emofree.com/archives.htm