posted August 07, 2007 02:33 AM              

Anyway, I think the dif between chiron and pluto is this: chironic wounds are painful in a sad and gentle way. In a way that informs wisdom and life experience. These are wounds that deepen us and in a very real and immediate way elicit compassion in us for others dealing with a similar wound. They do not leave us clutching the railing, gasping for air, struggling to stand up straight (figuratively). These wounds evoke humility and spiritual searching. They are, in truth, beautiful wounds. Their beauty is easy to see and the joy and giving that results from these wounds far outweigh the suffering. It is not the kind of wounding that makes us question whether there is a God. It is a gentle wounding and its point is for us to get to healing, love and sharing. "Giving" in spiritual terms is probably the most essential point of chiron. It is more externalized and less about self discovery. People with chironic aspects to their inner planets, particularly moon and venus, have a softness, charm, gentleness, natural humility and incredible people ability, colored particularly with the planet being aspected. People are drawn to them and enjoy being around them. They may not be rock stars but in their circles and families, they are the favorites. People with pluto in aspect to their inner planets can often be described in opposite terms.

Plutonic wounds go to the absolute core of the psyche. They are wounds that cut and throb intensely. They do not elicit compassion in us unless we work hard to channel them that way. More naturally they elicit warlike responses. They are in psychological terms "narcissistic injuries." Our most vulnerable areas. There are no areas more vulnerable. The most common feeling in the worst part of a pluto transit is dread, occasionally terror and overwhelming anxiety. Our world is being turned upside down while we attempt to remain right side up. Words like "surreal" and "bizarre" are often used. Scenarios are often kafkaesque. The healing that takes place subsequently happens slowly. More often than not, the feeling and the circumstances around the event will remain with us for many years. We will need to work to recover. When we do, we will be utterly changed inside and be able to deal with that area (whatever house its in) in a new way. The work is very internal. In contrast to chiron whose work is less so.

The discovery of pluto is associated with the holocaust, horrendous abuse of power, genocide and atomic weapons. Life and death issues. Chaos, destruction, etc The discovery of chiron is associated with therapy and alternative healing. Chiron has a feminine quality to it and I like the notion of associating it with virgo especially bec of its unique humility. Pluto is masculine, occasionally seemingly tyrannical and merciless. People with chiron aspects are often unaware of the degree of their charm or magic and seem to be unable to appreciate it fully. It does not lead to ego, as other extraordinary aspects do. It remains somewhat invisible to them. Pluto does not remain invisible and inevtiably makes itself known in some unforgettable way or other.

(In terms of sign designation, charm is not an especially virgoan trait, it is more libra. Chironic healing and the love associated with it often have a romantic quality, which is more libra than virgo. Libra though is not associated with assisting and healing. So perhaps it belongs with both though that pairing lacks symmetry on a systematic, theoretical level).

In any case, the use of plutonic energy ethically and in the service of healing can achieve monumental and probably far deeper and longer range transformations than those with chiron. Psychologically speaking, pluto relates more to analysis, psychodynamic work, working through transferences, the chaos, the parts of the psyche that are impossible to look at directly, the complete reworking of foundational aspects of personality. Chiron is more about counseling, suggesting and encouraging our accumulated sadness to dissipate, to become love perhaps. To be externalized and helpful in some way. Very different aspects for dif ends.

posted August 07, 2007 06:19 AM            

I realize you're probably looking for someone to discuss this with and not a sycophant, but you can't always get what you want, can ya?

I haven't been distinguishing Chiron and Pluto on the severity of the wound, just on the type. To me, Pluto is about darkness, the cost of existence, destruction as creation, power...so its wounds would relate to those issues. Chiron can include those wounds, but it's generally the incidental wounding that happens in life. But I really liked the way you distinguished the two.

Chiron and Pluto are both relatively prominent in my chart. I have Chiron forming a grand trine with Venus and Mars-Jupiter. Pluto is my chart ruler, sextiles my Moon, and conjuncts my Sun/Moon midpoint. I share my Chiron with others much more than my Pluto, which makes sense since I have Chiron conjunct the Dsc while Pluto is buried in the 12th.

posted August 07, 2007 07:27 AM              

quote:

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The development of a neptunian spirituality is almost mandated to effectively use plutonic power. They go together and their orbits are intertwined.

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posted August 07, 2007 05:37 PM              

Jane

I don't mind a little sycophantishness here and there. I agree with the way you put chironic wounding as more "incidental." If you have a grand trine with chiron and your venus and pretty much any planet, you are probably ridiculously appealing - if the grand trine is within 3 deg orb. (Not that you arent if it isnt ) I have seen chiron/venus stuff with my own eyes be spottable across many crowded rooms. Chiron on your dsc is interesting and a continuation of the chiron/venus theme. Does that translate to great loves? Wounds in relationships?

I have pluto exactly on my MC - 0 orb. Which has some plusses and some clear minuses. Its also exactly trine my moon and quintile saturn.

I have chiron conjunct jupiter in the 4th which probably has to do with teaching, being passionate, convincing, about deeply and long held beliefs that go back to early life, etc. The cliche interpretation is wounding in early life. Is there a human walking the planet who was not wounded in early life?

Thanks, alanebelle, azalksh and summerdream for the kind words. There is more to say on this topic. I just wanted to address what I feel is an overemphasis of chiron's woundedness and a sort of equating it, or using the same language as is used for pluto when they are very different and not in the same category at all. Where is chiron and pluto in your chart? How has it worked?

posted August 07, 2007 08:47 PM            

My Chiron is in Taurus in my 4th house and opposes my Venus in Scorpio (in retrograde) in my 10th house (which is natally ruled by Libra). It is also square my Jupiter (Leo/7th) and trine my Saturn (Virgo/8th) and ascendant (Capricorn).

My Pluto is in Libra in my 9th house conjunct my MC (in Libra). It is also sextile my Mercury and Neptune (both in Sagittarius in my 12th house).

posted August 08, 2007 01:36 AM            

The Chiron-Venus section of my grand trine has almost a 3º30' orb, so you clearly need to expand the orb you use. But Chiron trines Jupiter exactly and Mars by 2º. I wouldn't say that it's inaccurate to describe me as really, really, ridiculously appealing. I'm having a tough time phrasing this in a way that doesn't sound obnoxious, but I have found it easy to attract and connect with people in life, which definitely came in handy when I was growing up since I moved a lot.

Magi Astrology lists Chiron-Venus (maybe Jupiter too? can't remember) as being a Cinderella aspect. When I was younger my family was always short on money, but I've always attracted wealthy people. Most of my school friends were well off and just in general the richies loved me. I worked at an expensive restaurant and the family who owned it really welcomed me into their family, took me on vacations with them, etc. The same thing with the families I worked for as a private tutor, and also with my friends and boyfriends. It was all very Great Gatsby.

I think part of what makes people with Chiron-Venus appealing is our sense of play and pleasure as healing. We're sensitive and aware of our pain and the pain in others but instead of becoming too dark we recognize that one of the greatest ways to deal with pain is to balance life with joy and pleasure, to make the most of what we do have while we have it, but in an appreciative way, not an overly urgent and hyper way.

Pluto is exactly on your MC? So what you're telling me is that if I were to meet you, I'd soil myself?

I didn't know that Chiron-Jupiter aspects are connected with teaching. I've tutored part-time for many years and really enjoy it. I don't know if it's this aspect, but one of the things that makes me happiest is seeing others recognize and express their own power and potential. It angers me and breaks my heart when people let others define their self-worth and lifepath. Maybe that's also my Pluto influence?

posted August 08, 2007 05:13 AM              

quote:

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You know how oatmeal helps rid the body of cholesterol? Well I think of the people I love as oatmeal because not only do they not intentionally hurt me (or I them) but their love makes all the crap I have experienced feel less painful, I can actually feel it leaving me. I hope I do the same for them. They're my oatmeal cookies. (Sickening, I know.)

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That's a beautiful analogy

posted August 11, 2007 03:06 AM              

"'
chironic wounds are painful in a sad and gentle way. In a way that informs wisdom and life experience. These are wounds that deepen us and in a very real and immediate way elicit compassion in us for others dealing with a similar wound. They do not leave us clutching the railing, gasping for air, struggling to stand up straight (figuratively). These wounds evoke humility and spiritual searching. They are, in truth, beautiful wounds. Their beauty is easy to see and the joy and giving that results from these wounds far outweigh the suffering.
""

posted August 11, 2007 03:59 AM              

That's the best insight into the differences between Chiron and Pluto I've seen and even though you use some big words (which I had to look up! ) it was very understandable. I had flipped through "The Idiot's Guide To Astrology", but even it didn't have much to say about Chiron and it certainly didn't show the differences between the wounds we receive from it and Pluto.

I'm off to read your other threads now.

Thanks for sharing all you've learned through your own research!!

posted August 11, 2007 07:08 PM              

my bf ( as Izo) has many Cinderella linkages ( 4 ) so he does tend to atract wealth people who enjoys him for who he is.
He has all those Kiron traits yoiuve talked about:it aspects his Sun/Moon/Venus/Neptune/Pluto in a soft way.

Me on the other hand, have all hard aspects from it to my Sun/Venus/Jup/Uranus...only trines my AC/Merc..

posted August 13, 2007 09:58 AM              

That was cool. I've always had problem with stomaching the "unhealable wound" stuff and I've only found one astrologer so far who's take is different and not so hopelessly gloomy. He sees Chiron more like a place of universal joke. Learn to see the humour and share it with the world.

Love your take on the differences between Plutonian and Chironic connections. I have all personal planets covered - Pluto aspecting Sun, Moon, Mercury and Mars. Chiron aspecting Venus - so I think I sort of get the different feel thing.