posted August 08, 2007 05:25 PM            

Actually...

...I do have one particular story that relates to this and I will try to keep it as brief as possible (although it soooo isn't). I apologize in advance since this is incredibly long. I really am trying to answer this question, in a sense, with actual experience.

In the last two years I have fallen in love twice. The relationship with the second guy recently ended (as you know). The funny thing about these guys is that they both have the same birthday: November 1st. This is also interesting because Guy #1 was born in 1980 and Guy#2 was born in 1972. Since I was born in 1976 I am sort of sandwiched right between them. What is also noteworthy is that my best friend's birthdate is November 1st 1974.

When I met each of them the transiting Moon was conjunct my natal Moon in Taurus; transiting Isis was conjunct the transiting Ascendant;the transiting Sun was at 10 degrees.

They also drive the exact same car: make, model, year and colour. They wear the same pair of obscure running shoes. They (as well as my best friend) have all studied psychology as their undergrad in university. There are a lot of other weird synchronicities...

Their astrology charts, although 8 years apart, were strangely similar. For example: Each of their respective Suns (obviously) and Venus in the same sign, same degree, almost to the minute. I won't go into all their astro-similarities but as an example, the aspects they made to my chart were very similar as well:

(I will try to only include 'karmic' connections

Their Karma in my 5th House
Their Amor (both in the same sign at a critical degree) in my 8th House
My NN conjunct Guy#1's name asteroid
My Anti-Vertex conjunct Guy #2's name asteroid
Guy #1's Vertex conjunct my Saturn
Guy #2's Vertex conjunct my IC
My NN conjunct their Suns

There are so many more aspects I could write here that were identical or very similar between their charts and mine. In most cases, even the orb was identical. Things like Cupido conjunct Karma, Valentine trine Karma, Psyche trine Karma, Amor oppose Karma, Ceres trine Karma, My Name asteroid trine Karma,POF oppose Karma, Amor trine Eros,Karma trine Amor,Sun trine Ascendant and IC, Pluto conjunct Venus,Saturn sextile Venus, Guy #1's Isis was sextile my Isis and Guy #2's Isis was sextile my Osiris, etc. etc.

What occured between me and Guy #1 was intense and messy. But it was the most love I had ever felt for any man up to that point in my life. I knew it wasn't going to last because of his age and maturity/level of life experience and so after 6 months, 2 weeks and 3 days I ended it. He also agreed it had to end, but he would show up at my door telling me that he didn't want to be without me, that maybe this was a mistake.

Then I sat around for months, truly depressed, wondering why the universe could not send me the 35 year old version of Guy#1. Eleven months after we broke up, I met Guy#2 (who was 34) and I knew I was going to fall in love with him as soon as we met, despite my worry of karma.

I did. And the same (but a more mature) situation developed between us as the one I had with Guy#1. The pushing forward emotionally and then pulling away. The I love you's that never quite got to "I'm in love with you"...simply "I think I might be in love with you...maybe..." But very real, very deep and hugely transformational.

My relationship with Guy#2 ended 6 months, 2 weeks and 2 days after we first met. He broke up with me. And yet he still contacted me, leaving me a flower on my doorstep and telling me that he didn't want to be without me; that maybe he was making the biggest mistake of his life.

There are so many more synchronicities and similarities and some very compelling differences too. (Guy#1 was very spiritual but immature and Guy#2 was an athiest but incredibly mature.)

So the point here (finally) is that I had karma with both of them. Astrologically, it was more than clear. Beyond what I wrote above, with Guy#1, his Saturn fell in my 4th conjuncting my Karma and my Saturn fell in his 8th conjuncting his Vertex. With Guy#2 his Saturn fell in my 12th, his Moon in my 4th and my Sun in his 4th.

Now to your questions Jane:

<<<...would I feel the same with them all? When I make eye contact with all of them will I feel that electrical rush I get with my bf? Will their kisses make me feel the same? Will I be able to lose myself in conversation with all of them?>>>>

I felt something very similar with both of them. At its root, it was an unconditional love that I had never before experienced within the context of intimate relationships. Whether I was making eye contact with them, or kissing them, or talking their ears off, there was an incredibly similar feeling and energy. It is almost eerie when I think back. There was a sameness to the way I felt when they wrapped themselves around me...like we were as safe and comfortable as we had even been before.

I found that throughout my relationship with Guy#2 that he would even say the exact same things to me that Guy#1 had said, word for word. And that's notable since alot of these simliar phrases were spiritually based and Guy #2 is an athiest. But he still said them, word for word.

The timelines of what happened between us were different but most of the exact same events occured, although it was like with Guy#2 that they occured and were handled in a more softened way...like the harshness of much of the events was diluted and communication and understanding occured almost immediately. Similar events which were not worked through with Guy#1 found peace and forgiveness when they occured in my relationship with Guy#2.

posted August 08, 2007 05:26 PM            

Those two words have come up more for me in the past 2 years than I can count. I have struggled with wondering if I manifested Guy#2 to complete my karma with Guy#1 or if it was destiny/fate all along.

I have pulled apart every feeling I (have) had for both of them to make sure I was being honest with myself (and them). I have worked hard not to compare the two relationships in the same way I compared their astrology. I have cried myself to sleep because I've never loved anyone in the world ( besides my Dog ) in such a complete, unconditional way as these two people, although in slightly different ways.

All I can surmise is that there are all kinds of karmic experiences we must (choose to?) go through and when we meet these people we will find the evidence within the charts but the real truth will be how we feel when we're with them....or without. And how we change because of them and, for me, how we become more loving people simply by the experience of knowing them is the evidence.

I can honestly say that I am a more loving, compassionate and forgiving person because of both my "Guys".

Truthfully, I wish I could be with Guy#2. Not just because the end is more recent and the pain is more fresh. I work with Guy#1 and see him often and when I see him now, I can remember how I felt and I still feel the same depth of love for him, but it's not the same "kind" of love I have for Guy#2.

I guess I am not meant to be with either of them, but it has been an experience that has made me begin to think of karma/destiny versus choice in new and different ways.

I really have no absolute conclusions except for my belief in love and if we don't have a choice in regards to those with whom we share our destinies then we certainly do have the choice in how we choose to be within those relationships. How will we act at the beginning, the middle...and the end? With anger and frustration or compassion? Pain and regret or love and gratitude?

Jane, I think if you met all the people in the world who had the same birthday as your boyfriend it wouldn't matter because it is him you love ~ his soul, his eyes, his conversation and kisses. Those karmic aspects in a chart are, I think, there to perhaps show us the nature of the karma and I find that to be ultimately more difficult than actually defining that there is indeed inherent karma. And then there's choice. You can have all the destiny indicators in the world with someone (or someones) but if even one person chooses to go another way then that is their choice, no? I do believe that free will is a huge part of karma.

At least that is what I have decided to believe until someone or something shows me otherwise

Anyhow, I'm not sure if my ridiculously long tale has made sense of anything for you. I know that in a way I'm still trying to make sense of it. There are a lot of things that make me feel confused and frustrated. But I think GeminiLover75 said it best and definitely with the most word economy:

<<<Maybe, the ones you actually come into contact with are the ones you have karmic history with.>>> and <<< Because something in each person has the free will to choose what they do with the events and situations that play out in synchronicity with the transits>>> and <<<I believe there can be more than one soulmate, but they all come into our path to teach us different lessons.>>>

~ Love

posted August 10, 2007 01:51 AM            

quote:

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All I can surmise is that there are all kinds of karmic experiences we must (choose to?) go through and when we meet these people we will find the evidence within the charts but the real truth will be how we feel when we're with them....or without. And how we change because of them and, for me, how we become more loving people simply by the experience of knowing them is the evidence.

---

Yes, I completely agree that the real truth is how we feel, not what the chart says. I think that if two people really have a soul connection, then, like you said, the relationship will be transformative. The connection will be far from superficial or indifferent. So what I've concluded is that people with a past life connection will share karmic synastry and a deep connection. One without the other, and I would think that a past life history between the two is unlikely.

You said in the other thread that you could feel the connection right when you met your soulmates. I've experienced that too. When I was 9 and met someone who would become one of my best friends, I can remember thinking to myself that she was going to be someone very important in my life, a "forever" kind of friend. I could just tell. And that's happened a number of times in my life. (I am close with people who I didn't expect to form such a deep connection with though. When meeting, I thought they'd be, to quote Fight Club, "single-serving friends", so I've definitely been wrong. I wonder if with the second group I lack "karmic" indicators while I have it with the first group? Think I'll check that out. That was a very long parenthetical comment. )

quote:

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Jane, I think if you met all the people in the world who had the same birthday as your boyfriend it wouldn't matter because it is him you love ~ his soul, his eyes, his conversation and kisses. Those karmic aspects in a chart are, I think, there to perhaps show us the nature of the karma and I find that to be ultimately more difficult than actually defining that there is indeed inherent karma. And then there's choice. You can have all the destiny indicators in the world with someone (or someones) but if even one person chooses to go another way then that is their choice, no? I do believe that free will is a huge part of karma.

---

What freaked me out was the thought that the nature of the karma I share with my bf could be identical with all the men born when he was. When I'm saying karma, I just mean a past life history. Take S.Node contacts, for instance. In that Soul Union thread, the conventional interpretation seems to be that the planet person owes the Node person and the nature of the debt can be discovered by the planet involved. If it's Venus, it was a love relationship. Moon, and it was a parent-child relationship (I think that's the interp for that one). So in my case, I have Eros on his S.Node...so in a past life, we had an erotic relationship. That's the take on that aspect. But I doubt that means that I had an erotic relationship with and "owe" all of my bf's astro twins. I think with many or all of them, my Eros on their S.Node is meaningless, at least in terms of past lives. It could just mean that that type of relationship with me would feel very natural to them. So I think it's important with all these "past life" indicators--Nodes, Saturn, Pluto, water house--to also keep in mind their other, non-past life meanings. The "past life" interpretation may not apply but the one about how the two will impact one another may (and I say "may" b/c synastry depends on how people use their charts, free will, etc.).

posted August 10, 2007 04:44 PM            

I think my own personal lifepath is partially about learning to have more faith in the universe and maybe questioning it too much is missing the point...?

Anyhow, I also know what you mean about "single-serving friends" and I've definitely been wrong about that too. My theory is that when we meet people who end up in our lives for much longer than we thought, they may well be the people with whom we need to share long term lessons/experiences. And those connections may be less "comfortable" initially but probably just as important.