posted August 26, 2007 07:26 AM              

I have come across the theory of the "Dwads"; are you familiar with it?

It`s a way to further divide the zodiac, so you can see the difference between people who have been born under the same sign.
Let`s say you have a Sun in Aries; now we all know that not all people with Sun in Aries are the same, some are more careful than others, more diplomatic etc.
I know you can explain these differences with the houses, different aspects and such.

This is the point where the Dwads come in; it is another theory to explain the difference. You just divide the 30° of each sign into equal parts; you fit the whole zodiac in one sign so to speak.
There is a table I found to calculate the exact degrees.

It`s on this side: http://koti.mbnet.fi/neptunia/dwads.htm

It starts with Aries:
00° - 2,5° of Aries would be: Aries
2,5° - 5° of Aries would be: Taurus
and so on.

In Taurus it would go like:
00° - 2,5° Taurus
2,5° - 5° Gemini
and so on.

So,`let me give you an example from my chart.
My Venus is on 6°08 Capricorn.

So my Venus falls into the Dwad from 5° - 7,5°, and this is the Pisces-Dwad.

The column for capricorn would look like that:

Capricorn
00° - 2°30: Capricorn
2°30 - 5°00: Aquarius
5°00 - 7°30: Pisces

NOw you can calculate even the exact degree: as you can see every Dwad spans 2,5° or 150 minutes or arc.
So, 5 minutes of arc in the normal zodiac equal one degree in the Dwads.
So, if my Venus was at 5°05 Capricorn, then the exact Dwad degree would be 1° Pisces.
If it was 5°30, then the exact Dwad degree would be 6° Pisces.
To make this short: You just have to see in which Dwad the planet falls (Pisces-Dwad), and then you look, at which degree this special Dwad would start (5°00) and then you see how many minutes of arc your Planet is away from that beginning point.
In my case: 6°07 - 5°00; which means my Venus is 1° and 7 minutes of arc into the Pisces Dwad.
Now I convert that into minutes, and since 1° equals 60 minutes, I can say, my Venus is 60 + 7 minutes = 67 minutes into the Pisces-Dwad.
NOw, if I got that result, I just have to divide it by 5 to get the Dwad-degree.
67:5= 13,4
So, my Venus is approximately on 13,5° in the Pisces Dwad.
Of course it`s still on 6° Capricorn, the Dwad is just an additonal information.
Someonw with Venus on 13° Capricorn, would have their Venus also in the Gemini-Dwad.

Now both of us could probably relate to the description of Venus in Capricorn, but still there would be some differences between us. In my case there would be a distinct romantic and idealistic undertone to love, which wouldn`t be captured by the Capricorn-venus.
In the case of the other person, there would be a more mental undertone, some more lightness to that Venus-position, but maybe a bit less emotional and vulnerable.
So the Dwads add a subtle influence to our signs.

I personally have found that if oyu calculate the exact degrees of the Dwads, you can see interesting interconnections in your own chart.

for example: in my own chart the ruler of my 7th house is Mercury, well placed in my horoscope. So I should not have any difficulties in asessing love relationships, and I should take them easy. But I am prone to fall in love with unavailable partners, to rather dream of love than actually do something about it. I also can fall prey to my dreams and illusions very quickly; those are all things I definitely wouldn`t connect with Mercury, with Gemini in my 7th house.
But my nice, outgoing DC-ruler Mercury falls into the Libra-Dwad and is very closely opposite the Dwad of my Neptune. It seems there is an underlying note of Neptunian influence to my 7th house, which is even more emphasized since my Venus is in Pisces Dwad.

Or some other example. In the Dwads I have a close Saturn-Pluto-conjunction in Capricorn-Dwad, sitting exactly on my Sun-Moon-midpoint and opposing my Saturn / ERos, Vertex in Cancer. I can relate to it very much. Of course it is a repeating theme; since I have Saturn in 8 and Pluto in 10 anyway (Saturn-Pluto all over the place); but it seems to me that this theme of controlling my emotions and especially my more sensual, needing and loving side (Sun-Moon-mp, Eros) reaches deep down under the surface into the deeper layers of my personality (that would be the Dwads I guess).

I also found that my Dwad-Venus in Pisces is often triggered in relationships as are other placements, too.
Well, I would only look for conjunctions and oppositions for a start, so the chart doesn`t get too cluttered.
But it seems to me, those Dwads add something interesting and insightful to the chart.

What do you think about it?

Oh here are some interesting links:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/neptunia/dwads.htm http://koti.mbnet.fi/neptunia/essays/dwadch1.htm http://koti.mbnet.fi/neptunia/essays/dwproj1.htm http://koti.mbnet.fi/neptunia/essays/dwsoul1.htm http://koti.mbnet.fi/neptunia/essays/dwwhy1.htm

DD

posted August 28, 2007 03:12 AM            

I had looked into those before, but only for my Sun & Moon. This time I did a full dwad chart for me & my bf.

Some synastry:
--his dwad venus conjuncts my radix mars; my dwad neptune conjuncts his radix mars. (Radix = regular natal placement.) That site says the radix person can work out on the practical level the inner ideas of the dwad person. So I guess my physical nature is just what his inner venus seeks & likewise with his physical nature and my inner neptune. Interesting planets involved, since neptune is called the higher vibration of venus, so we each have similar inner energy conjunct the others external mars.

--his dwad sun & pluto conjunct my radix ascendant & his own radix eros.

--Something we have in common in our dwad charts is that we both have a sun-pluto conjunction. That site said that if a person has a dwad planet conjunct their dwad sun, she would feel a natural sympathy with people of that planet's sign (or other people with that aspect). That's definitely true for both me & my bf with scorpios.

--Something else I found interesting is that we both have our dwad moon in the other's natal sun sign.

My dwad Venus conjuncts my dwad Pluto. Maybe that's what I've been feeling all this time, & not my wide Venus square Pluto?

posted August 28, 2007 04:30 PM              

Izo,
have you tried to use the Dwads for your synastry? If yes, what were the results? Were there any connections?

Oz,
seems like you`re living my inner Venus in the outside. lol

Jane,
Your Venus is really on 13 Cap? I didn`t know that. lol
However, seems you have quite strong Dwad-natal interaction.

I find this Dwad-theory more and more compelling, because it seems to explain some interaction that is hard to understand otherwise.

I never knew why I was so draw to people with Sun or Moon in Scorpio or with Pluto-aspects. Well, my Venus is square Pluto, but that didn`t really explain it. It would explain, why I fall for the Mars-Pluto or Scorpio ascendenders (love your new created word), but not so much, why so many men with Moon in Scorpio and Sun in aspect to Pluto are attractive to me.
But as it is my Dwad Sun is conjunct my natal Pluto, maybe that does explain it a bit.

I also think, that your Venus-pluto-conjunction in the Dwads emphasizes your wide Venus-Pluto-aspect.

In my case it even explains why I am so fascinated with Keanu REeves. The obvious synastry is strange, to put it mildly, with very much quinkunxes from his Venus / Mars to my Sun / Mercury, Moon to Moon, Pluto to Moon, and a T-square of his stellium in Virgo opposite my chartruler and square my Stellium in Sagittarius.

But what I felt around him was a very Plutonian vibe, and so I would have expected to find a Venus - Pluto or Mars-Pluto-aspect in the synastry. NOt just because he appears very Plutonian to me (well, he has Pluto conjunct ASC after all), but because in every single synastry with men I found attractive this aspect appeared, and that even extends to celebrities. There is ALWAYS a Venus-Pluto, Mars-Pluto, Sun-Pluto, Moon-Pluto or ASC-Pluto aspect. No exception.
WEll, except for him. HIs Pluto is opposite my chartruler and quinkunx my Moon, but that`s about it (well, his Moon, Venus and Mars fall into my 8th house, but I was talking about aspects).

HOwever, in the Dwads the picture changes drastically.

My Dwad Venus is exactly opposite his natal Pluto.
My Dwad Pluto is opposite his natal Venus and natal Mars.

My Dwad Pluto is opposite his natal Moon and conjunct his Dwad Moon.
HIs Dwad Pluto is exactly conjunct my natal Moon.

Well, that surely looks interesting. lol

But I need to research more "real" synastries, to see how important exactly the Dwads are.

Well, for my natal horoscope it fits at least.
And in your synastry it seems to fit, too.

posted August 29, 2007 03:22 AM            

have you looked at dwad placements in natal & vice versa?

posted August 29, 2007 09:33 AM              

thank you for further backing up the Dwad-theory! You have pretty intense Dwads btw. Whoa.

Jane,

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ope you always unintentionally use my own placements when giving an example!

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i think those planets of his in your 8th house also contribute a lot to you feeling his plutonian vibe.

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HIs Moon sextile his Pluto / ASC and quinkunx my Moon.
His Venus sextile his Jupiter and quinkunx my Sun / Mercury.
They caught my attention, because it was always my planets becoming the Apex-planet of the Yod. But I don`t really know what that means. If it means anything at all.

Apart from that a comparision of the natal connections are interesting, too.
For example:
HIs DSC in Pisces; Neptune conjunct my ASC
The ruler of his 7th house in 3rd house; the ruler of my 1st house in 3rd house.
My DSC in Gemini; his MErcury conjunct Sun and ASC.
HIs Venus / Mars in Cancer - my Venus in Capricorn
His Venus in 11th house - my Moon in Aquarius
His Venus conjunct Mars - the ruler of my 7th house in 1st house, Venus in 1st house
my Venus square Pluto - his Pluto conjunct ASC

There are quite some complimentary connections; and I sometimes wonder if this may be enough to feel a certain kind of attraction to someone. Even without very strong synastric connections.

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have you looked at dwad placements in natal & vice versa?

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so, all that 8th house action probably increases the scorpio influence on my character.

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--in synastry, my bf (that now means "best fiancee" ) and i have some strong house overlays involving dwad planets in natal houses, & natal planets in dwad houses. lots of 7th, 5th, 4th, & 1st house action, plus asc/dsc conjunctions.

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DD

posted August 30, 2007 08:18 AM              

Hugs!

posted September 02, 2007 03:39 AM            

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How about Moon on 17° Leo this time?

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I can speak from personal experience that the quincunx is very valid!
I haven't looked into yods, but now you have me curious to read up on it.
Edit: We have a yod. My Pluto (chart ruler) sextiles my Neptune (5th house ruler) & they both form a quincunx with his Mercury (his 7th house ruler). His Mercury falls in my 7th house.

I think those connections you listed can absolutely create an attraction. They're sort of affinities & that sense of familiarity is a strong part of attraction. Perhaps the lack of strong synastric connections indicates that if you were to meet, there would be a sense of familiarity & appreciation of one another but no real glue holding you together. Sorta like, "I love you! Have a nice life." But your dwad-natal synastry is strong. I think your regular synastry is strong too, actually. There's a lack of harmonious aspects, but the affinities could make up for that. Maybe those hard aspects are actually a positive thing & add to the attraction since they add the necessary friction to keep it from being just a sympathetic feeling. Hmm, that's giving me the idea that maybe in general the more affinities a couple share, the more "hard" aspects they can experience before those aspects cause a serious stress?

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And the "best fiancee" - is this just recently? Can I congratulate?

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posted September 02, 2007 08:24 AM              

I`m sorry, I didnīt get back to this thread earlier, but I`m glad to hear you have reconciled.
And actually you`re not the only ones, who maybe feel the pressure of an approaching marriage. The husband of my best friend spent the night before the wedding on the couch. And they have been a happily married couple for 4 years now. So, sometimes the pressure just has to be released.
HOwever, I congratulate you then to your engagement.

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So close! My Moon's @ 22š Leo.

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I imagine that would produce a magnetic attraction. Emotionally, the person would be compellingly different but deeply familiar at the same time.

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I can speak from personal experience that the quincunx is very valid!

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I haven't looked into yods, but now you have me curious to read up on it.

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[quoteEdit: We have a yod. My Pluto (chart ruler) sextiles my Neptune (5th house ruler) & they both form a quincunx with his Mercury (his 7th house ruler). His Mercury falls in my 7th house.[/quote]
That looks like a very strong yod, indeed, especially since it emphasises such important houses. How do you experience this yod?

posted September 02, 2007 08:24 AM              

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But your dwad-natal synastry is strong. I think your regular synastry is strong too, actually.

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However, in the mentioned example I stuck with the pure main aspects, and left out some things I would consider myself as being of some importance.
For example: his Venus-Mars-conjunction is not ONLY quinkunx my Sun-Mercury.
It happens to conjunct my Eros and Vertex and is opposite my Sun-Moon-midpoint. His Venus is also solstice-opposite my Mars / ASC, and his Mars is solstice-opposite my Node / ASC.
(The solstice-aspects are considered by several astrologers as slightly less strong than conjunctions; I`m still researching them, but have found some evidences for the truth of it in the charts I analysed).

Also, some interesting dw`s, like
Sun-Node
Karma - Eros
Venus - Valentine
Moon - Vertex (both conjunctions, even though a tad wide with almost 5°)

My question now is: how do they weigh in, if I judge the strength of a synastry chart? Do aspects, especially conjunction and opposition, to the Sun-Moon-mp influence that effect?
For example: let`s take someone`s Sun, which is unaspected by the other ones planets, but actually is conjunct Sun-Moon-mp and Vertex, is it still considered a weak unaspected lonesome Sun?

However, I even had a very short peek at the Draconics, and couldn`t help but notice a DW of Sun-Moon-conjunction (ARies and Gemini), and his draconic Sun also conjuncts my SN, Kaali, DC and opposite my Neptune, Mars.
His draconic Pluto /ASC exactly conjuncts my natal Karma.
HIs draconic Venus / Mars conjunction conjuncts my draconic Venus / Isis / Osiris.
And while his natal Moon, Venus, Mars fall into my 8th house.
And my Sun, Mercury and Venus fall into his 4th house,

his draconic Sun, Mercury, ASC fall into my 7th house, and his draconic Moon, Venus and Mars fall into my 4th house.
My draconic Mars and ASC fall into his 7th house, and my draconic Sun, Mercury, Venus fall into his 8th house.
SEems an exchange of the 4th and 8th house takes place in the draconic, which I found very interesting, even though it`s slightly off topic here, I guess. lol

Also, what I always find intersting is looking at the progressed synastry. It even seems to work with celebrities, actors, singers you develop an interest for. At least in my case.
Wehn I took notice of him for the first time, his draconic Sun was exactly conjunct my Pluto, which is kinda funny, because I noticed him in a role, that couldn`t have been more Plutonic (Don John in Much Ado about nothing); add to that the fact that he has a natal Sun-Pluto-conjunction and I have a Dwad Sun-Pluto-conjunction, and you`ll know why I resonated with him in that moment.
Also, his progressed Venus was trine my natal Sun, which is said to be a conventional love-aspect. Of course, since I didn`t meet him, no relationship occured, but given the circumstances a connection was made, because I noticed him and developed some interest (which is also true to the symbolism of Venus).
Funny enough, this year and last year, when that interest surfaced again, his progressed mars has just come into an opposition to my natal Moon and progressed Mercury (my 7th house ruler) and progressed Venus. His progressed Sun / ASC are exactly square my Sun-Moon-mp and his progressed Moon will actually conjoin my natal Moon (ruler of 8th house) and progressed Venus (ruler of 5th house) and progressed Mercury (ruler of 7th house) next spring.
Iam really amazed at how exact that progressed synastry works in all cases (well, in all cases I know of at least), even when it`s just something like a "celebrity-adoration"-thing.

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There's a lack of harmonious aspects, but the affinities could make up for that. Maybe those hard aspects are actually a positive thing & add to the attraction since they add the necessary friction to keep it from being just a sympathetic feeling. Hmm, that's giving me the idea that maybe in general the more affinities a couple share, the more "hard" aspects they can experience before those aspects cause a serious stress?

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...t. mercury was aspecting his natal isis very, very tightly. so that could be read as "communication + wife = proposal." poor guy, he really had no choice.

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DD

posted September 04, 2007 01:13 AM            

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Do you mind to elaborate on this a bit more?
The quinkunx aspect just puzzles me alot.

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I haven't read much about the quincunx, so I don't know if my understanding of it is in line with the conventional view on it. I've read that the quincunx swings between a trine & an opposition. That description makes sense to me. When you're in the opposition phase, the person appears very different from you, sometimes in an attractive & complementary way, sometimes in a bewildering & irritating way. Then, something will click & you'll feel so connected with the person. Now you're in the trine phase. Relating is harmonious, you've never felt so understood by someone else...and then--bam--the opposition part swings into view & you feel like you're from two different planets. So which is real? Is there really an affinity or really a significant difference? I think both are real. But I like that. I want enough of a similarity to feel understood & to understand. But I also want a difference that takes me out of myself & expands who I am. I want to love another person for who he is, & to do that, I personally think it helps if the person is different from me in some major ways. If he's too similar, am I really loving him or just an extension of myself that I'm projecting on him? It's easier to more clearly see the person as a unique individual when his differences remind me that he is his own person. I pay closer attention when there are differences.

The quincunx can also work where you feel the trine opposition simultaneously. You both want the exact same thing (harmony) but are going about it or expressing it in very different ways (opposition), so different that you can't even see that you atually want the same thing. This is something that comes up sometimes in my relationship & when it does I think of it as our quincunx coming out to play.

It's hard to tell how much of what I'm describing is quincunx energy & how much is simply two people relating, especially two people of the opposite sex.

In my relationship, we have some prominent quincunx energy: our suns are quincunx & our moons are quincunx by sign. What I like about the quincunx is that it leads us to create points of view that are our "ours"--not his, not mine, but something that works for both of us. It's more than compromise though, which I think of as being external. This is an internal growth.

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She told about her own chart; she and her husband have several yods, and when after many years of friendship they finally realized they were in love, their friends apparently said with a sigh: "What took you so long to realize this? WE have known from the start."

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posted September 04, 2007 01:16 AM            

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n the synastry there were hard aspects of Pluto to Venus or Mars, probably those persons would actually enjoy the intensity of those aspects, because it`s something they have natally and crave for, while people who are not in tune with venus-Pluto, would easily be scared away.

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posted September 05, 2007 10:41 AM              

thank you for your interesting thoughts on the quincunx. I think sometimes it`s even a good thing to not have read so much, so you can develop your own view on this. And your take on quinkunx was just awesome to read.

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That description makes sense to me. When you're in the opposition phase, the person appears very different from you, sometimes in an attractive & complementary way, sometimes in a bewildering & irritating way. Then, something will click & you'll feel so connected with the person. Now you're in the trine phase. Relating is harmonious, you've never felt so understood by someone else...and then--bam--the opposition part swings into view & you feel like you're from two different planets.

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Her Sun is sextile my Saturn and quinkunx my Moon (I have a natal Moon-Saturn-quinkunx).
This is a yod, actually; and I think the Sun-Moon-quinkunx is quite important here.
It`s like sometimes we feel we`re as different as from different planets. Her Sun is in Virgo in the 4th house; my Moon is in Aquarius in the 2nd house.
To me she seemed to always care about what others think and do, always asking: "If I do that, what will my mother, my husband, my boyfriend, society think of me?"
And I would say: "Who cares what others think? Just do what you feel comfortable to do. You have to live with your choices, not the other people."
It really always came down to the difference of her always relating to society rules and me never relating to society rules.
In a way we have been playing our roles in that friendship: she - the dependent one, who deeply cares for others and shows her care; whose peace of mind depends on the reactions of the world around her.
me - independent, detached, who wouldn`t show how much I really care; denying any influence others could have on my decisions.

Interesting thing is we were both right and wrong. And over time we learned much from each other; she learned to rely more on herself, that she is a strong person deep inside (She has an Aries Moon in 11th house,which happens to be her chartruler for God`s sake!) and I learned that I actually need other persons and that I`m a part of this society and so, of course I am influenced by them, and that it`s okay to sometimes be weak and dependent and not strong, that I can allow others to care for me, sometimes, and that it doesn`t mean I "sell" myself (I have Neptune conjunct Mars-ASC square my chartruler in Pisces - so, this softer side is also a part of me).

Those are the different sides of us; and they haven`t gone. I will still be the more independent one who is saying: Who cares what your neighbour thinks if you`re sleeping until noon on a wednesday?,
and she`ll be always the one who wants to "look good" on the outside.
But we learned to accept those differences, and we learned to use them for our personal growth.

And on other times there`s such a great harmony and udnerstanding between us. We just get each other.
I understand her need of being accepted and admired by others, and I understand the sacrifices she is making for this goal. But it`s not my way, and if it gets too the point, that she is harming herself psychologically I will intervene.
On the other hand she understands my need to be alone and to feel independent, but if I proceed so far, that I withdraw from the outer world and get lost in my inner cocoon, she will intervene and drag me along to a party.

Maybe that is what the quinkunx is about. At least our quinkunx.

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ilarity to feel understood & to understand. But I also want a difference that takes me out of myself & expands who I am. I want to love another person for who he is, & to do that, I personally think it helps if the person is different from me in some major ways. If he's too similar, am I really loving him or just an extension of myself that I'm projecting on him? It's easier to more clearly see the person as a unique individual when his differences remind me that he is his own person.

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