posted September 12, 2007 02:13 AM              

Anyway, I have planets both in my 4th (Mars and Venus; also Mercury making a conjunction to the IC from the 3rd) and in my 10th (Saturn and Pluto). And yes, they form oppositions (except for Venus). My parents argue a lot and they were separated at some point, but got back together. I always got caught in the middle. I think my 4th house does speak of my father (especially Mercury and Mars; I don't see Venus, but maybe that's because it is my least aspected planet ~ 1 aspect: conj Chiron) and my 10th house of my mother (I definitely see her as Saturn and Pluto ~ she has Pluto conj her Asc).

I also read one of Liz Greene's fabulous articles lately and it made me think about this stuff in more detail. It's about triangles and I do seem to be prone to them - and guess what, I have almost every indicator that she mentions! Here are some quotes about 10th and 4th houses:
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_triangle_e.htm

quote:

---

The parental significators usually show up very powerfully, and in such a way as to involve one’s emotional and sexual needs and one’s image of oneself as a man or woman. We might find planets in the 10th or the 4th house, which immediately suggests the parent is a carrier for or representative of something mythic and archetypal. Having no planets in the parental houses does not mean there are no conflicts with the parents, or no subjective image which we project on them. But it is often easier to perceive the parent as another person, another human, however flawed. When planets occupy these houses, the planetary gods appear with the parent’s face, wearing the parent’s clothes. A piece of our own destiny, our own inner journey, comes to meet us in very early life, disguised as mother or father and passed down through the family inheritance. While this is not "bad" or "negative", it does imply something powerful, fascinating, and compulsive about the parental relationship which requires a greater degree of consciousness and a greater effort at integration.
Repeating triangles in adult life are frequently linked with planets in the parental houses. Often we will see Venus in the 10th or 4th. Venus describes what we perceive as beautiful and of value, and therefore what we love, both in ourselves and in others. If a parent appears in the birth chart as Venus, that parent is going to be a symbol of what we recognise as most beautiful, most valuable, and most worthwhile. That in itself is not negative. But it may mean that we project our own beauty and worth on the parent, and a lot then depends on how the parent handles such a projection. [...]
If we leave the Venusian image projected on the parent, we may never recognise it in ourselves. Then we will keep looking for parental surrogates on whom we can place this image of all that is worthwhile and desirable in life, and we will keep finding Venusian love-objects who seem worth so much more than we do ourselves. Or we may try to reclaim Venus by playing her ourselves, pitting one lover against another in order to convince ourselves that we are really of value after all. Where Venus is, we love.
Rivalry is one of the most characteristic attributes of Venus placed in the house of the parent of one’s own sex. We may wind up feeling a lot like Snow White a good deal of the time. With Venus in the 10th in a woman’s chart, there may be deep and painful rivalry between mother and daughter. [...]
If one is a little girl with Venus in the 4th house, one may well try to split the parents, because father is the beloved with whom one shares some very lovely and pleasurable feelings. And if the parental marriage is insecure, and the mother unconsciously begins to behave in a hostile or competitive way, is her behaviour surprising?

Split families - oppositions from 4th to 10th

Triangles may develop within the family through the parents splitting up. Often this is portrayed in the birth chart by oppositions from the 4th to the 10th. Such oppositions do not inevitably indicate that the parents have separated, but usually there is conflict and separation on a psychological level, if not a physical one. One experiences the parents in opposition, and when this happens we are usually forced to take sides. Our own inability to cope with the situation impels us to do so, and sometimes one parent cannot refrain from trying to elicit the child’s loyalty as a weapon against the other parent. In this situation the bottom line, as ever, involves a contradiction within the individual, experienced first through the parents, reflected by opposing planets in the chart, and ultimately needing to be dealt with on an inner level. But unconsciousness on the part of the parents can make this a longer and harder process. Even if we are subjected to no parental pressure, it is unlikely that we can cope with divided loyalties at such a young age. And in such circumstances it would take extremely wise and conscious parents to be in sufficient accord with each other to place no emotional pressure of any kind on their child. Usually, if the parents are so unhappy that they are separating, they are not in the mood to be cooperative. Separations release primal emotions in us, and these may involve considerable vindictiveness - especially if the separation is triggered by a triangle.
Often the child winds up feeling like a football in a particularly aggressive football match. One parent - especially if he or she is the Betrayed - may attempt to claim possession of the child, overtly or subtly, in order to hurt the Betrayer. There are certain scripts which appear to be read by lots of people. For example: "Your father left me because he was a ******* . He was incapable of loving. He didn’t love any of us, otherwise he wouldn’t have gone off with that woman." The message to a male child might be: "I hope you don’t grow up to be like him." The message to a female child might be: "I hope you don’t grow up to marry somebody like him." Such messages do not have to be spoken. They may be communicated through martyrdom and ongoing misery. The Betrayed, when parents split up, will usually have great power over the child’s psyche because of the compassion he or she can draw out of the child. Children are not equipped to step out of the fray and look objectively at the break-up. It must be someone’s fault, either their own or one of the parents. And children also dare not reject those messages, because they are terrified of angering the parent who is now the sole caretaker. In our society, when parents split up, the mother usually gets the child - even if this is not psychologically the best solution for that particular child. There are many instances where the father might be emotionally better equipped to raise the child, but the courts of law do not see it that way. The mother must be quite floridly appalling to have her child taken away from her. If the parents are not actually married, the father’s rights may be nonexistent in terms of access. One might well question whether a father really merits having his child torn away and turned against him solely because he has betrayed his wife. But triangles have a way of generating very unpleasant emotional consequences which carry on down the generations and breed more triangles.[...]
If there are oppositions between the 4th and the 10th in the child’s chart, then the child’s own inner division colludes with the parents’ division. I have seen many, many examples over the years where the person has had to deny great love for a parent in such circumstances. The denial may be believed even by the person himself or herself. When we see Venus, Moon, Neptune, Sun, or Jupiter in a parental house, we know that there is a powerful positive bond with the parent, even if the relationship has also been very difficult. If any of these planets are in the 4th, they are likely to describe strongly positive and even idealised feelings for the father. But if there has been a break-up and the father has gone off - or if there are oppositions from planets in the 10th, even if he hasn’t gone off - it may prove impossible for the person to keep such feelings in consciousness.[...]The relationship is destroyed, and the child, who is now grown up, says, "Oh, I haven’t seen my father much since the divorce. I have very little to do with him. I see him occasionally, but we don’t have much of a relationship." All the positive, loving feelings have been pushed underground, because we do not cope well with divided loyalties. We suppress them because we have to survive psychologically; and we have to live with mother.

---

I am not really sure what I am asking here... I am still confused myself and I don't know how I am supposed to feel about this or what to do to correct the matter...

posted September 12, 2007 02:29 AM              

Seems interesting that it makes harmonious aspects to my moon (mother) and sun (father).

posted September 12, 2007 02:49 AM              

I don't know what to make of your Neptune and Venus either. I hope someone more experienced will give us more clues.
The article I posted is very interesting, but veeery long . There are more clues for triangles; Liz Greene also suggested aspects from Saturn and Chiron:

quote:

---

Insecurities which generate triangles - Saturn and Chiron

There is another consequence of family triangles - the potential alienation between oneself and others of one’s own sex. An unresolved Oedipal battle may result in a loss of trust in one’s own sexuality. If a situation of intense rivalry and competitiveness occurred with the same-sex parent, there will inevitably be effects in terms of our friendships and the way that we interact with our own sex later. If a woman has a mother who is an insurmountable rival, at whose hands she has suffered a painful and humiliating childhood defeat, confidence in her femininity may be undermined. And because she does not trust herself, she will not trust other women. They will all seem to have the power to "take away" those she loves. This mistrust of one’s own sex can be very acute.[...] The same applies to men. If a man has experienced a situation of destructive competitiveness with his father, then, in any later relationship in which he becomes involved, the issue of rivalry will always raise its head, because other men always seem to be potential rivals. One must be on guard all the time. This is not possessiveness in the ordinary sense. Its roots are quite different.
Placements such as Venus aspecting Saturn or Chiron can contribute to this dynamic, not because they are in themselves Oedipal, but because they reflect certain insecurities which can be compounded by the family triangle. Mars aspecting Saturn and Chiron may also reflect deep sexual insecurities which are heightened by family triangles and lead to feelings of defeat. These sets of aspects may compel a repetition of the failure later, or an attempt to heal the hurt by proving one’s sexual potency through triangles. There is no single astrological pattern which describes a propensity for triangles, but rather, many different combinations which can describe different images of and responses to the parents, and different ways of reacting to the natural and inevitable Oedipal phase of childhood. Venus-Saturn and Venus-Chiron do not "cause" a person to be drawn into triangles, but they describe a deep and innate awareness of human limits which, in childhood, when there is no real comprehension of what this could offer in a positive sense, can lead the child into feeling inadequate and damaged. The loss or alienation of a beloved parent will then be attributed to one’s own failings, and later in life one may feel one cannot "keep" a partner because a rival will always take him or her away.

---

posted September 12, 2007 05:17 AM              

I do notice that my sun is opposite my moon, with moon conjunct Uranus and sun opposite Uranus. I interpret this as my need for 'space' and independence from both parents. With Uranus conjunct moon I am literally closer to my mother but still like my personal space, and with Uranus opposite my sun there is much more of a distance between myself and my father.

The whole separation of my parents hasn't really manifested itself as a huge drama to me, but more that it's created moments of discomfort me particularly when it comes to issues of doing what *I* want, and issues of keeping my own space, along with having both parents say bad things about each other to me every now and then. I happen to take my mother's side, and although I can sympathise with how my father might have perceived things, I don't think it's his place to say bad things about my mother to me. It's more of an annoyance to me than anything else.

posted September 12, 2007 06:40 AM              

As you know i have busy 4th house with Saturn, Uranus and Neptun there.
For me it goes to everything related to the 4th house, so i do have "problem" not personally with either my Mom or Father rather regarding "Where is home"? "Where am i belong to?"
In short: coldness (emotionally, especially with my father) and confusion.
So, Saturn surely shows the lack of emotions in relation with my father, but for example, my Mother has SAg ASC and my IC is in Sag, while my Father is Gemini and my MC is in Gemini. So, its not clear at all.

About Moon and Sun.
Moon in 1st house in Virgo, trine Venus and Mars, but oppose Mercury(my chart ruler)
SO, my Mother is very important to me, but also quite strict and while generally we have a good relation, it happens that i feel she doesnt understand me.

My Sun in the 8th and the only aspect is a square with Neptun. I dont really know how to interpret it - since my Father is everything but neptunian - , maybe Neptun gives more confusion over how i see my father. And guess the darkness of the 8th house doesnt help much

About Synastry, well, its quite interesting especially with my Mother.
We have Moon conjunct Mars DW, my Asc fall in her 8th house, Venus-Saturn DW (square and opposition)my Cap stellium oppose her Cancer stellium...but fortunately there are other harmonious aspects as well.

But anyway, i love them.

posted September 12, 2007 12:48 PM              

These aspects square my Jupiter in the 7th house.

My mom was an Aqua, my dad a Cancer.

posted September 15, 2007 02:39 AM              

from what you wrote, it means you also have a Moon-Chiron conjunction with your mother in synastry. I have that with my father... but never quite knew how to interpret it. I'm the Moon, he's the Chiron (just like you and your mother). Emotional healing from my father? Kind of unlikely... with his Saturn squaring my Moon (this one I do feel).

Hey, Cat!

Your father sounds like an amazing person! I am very happy for you!!

GLB,

posted September 15, 2007 03:58 AM            

sorry to hear of all ur problems..

i know someone who's parents got divorced a couple of years ago. and i know that there was a lot of tension between them from many years before that. here it was the woman cheating on the man. dont know the time of birth but here are his aspects:

Sun Trine Moon 3°02
Sun Sextile Saturn 7°50
Sun Conjunction Uranus 4°44
Moon Sextile Saturn 4°48
Moon Trine Uranus 1°42
Moon Quincunx Neptune 0°18
Moon Square Pluto 0°54
Mercury Conjunction Venus 0°09
Mercury Square Jupiter 1°05
Venus Square Jupiter 0°56
Mars Square Uranus 4°00
Mars Trine Neptune 5°59
Mars Sextile Pluto 4°48
Saturn Sextile Uranus 3°06
Saturn Square Neptune 5°06
Saturn Trine Ascendant 4°36
Neptune Sextile Pluto 1°12

he's a scorpio and these are his placements :

Planetary positions
Sun Scorpio 16°15'10
Moon Cancer 19°17'35
Mercury Sagittarius 5°48'12
Venus Sagittarius 5°56'55
Mars Leo 24°59'18
Jupiter Virgo 6°52'57
Saturn Virgo 24°05'34
Uranus Scorpio 20°59'27
Neptune Sagittarius 18°59'48
Pluto Libra 20°11'23
True Node Virgo 5°33'11

the guy now stays with his dad. actually he's hardly ever home. he is mostly out (abroad) for business. i think he just prefers being away coz i think he feels theres nothing here for him.... i know he went thru a really rough time...but of what i've heard he's very much in touch with his mum also and is quite attatched to both his parents....

hope this helps..

p.s: i've posted the planetary positions in westrn zodiac(as it was easier), even though i normally use sidereal.

posted September 17, 2007 08:37 PM            

b. 18 Feb 1978 at 11:00am
in Tainan, Taiwan