posted December 01, 2007 05:48 AM              

I`ve been inspired by the other topic on Lilith to think a bit more about this one, especially since she`s been appearing a lot in my life and dreams (as have Kaali, Sati and Parvati lately).

But I think if we look Lilith, we must also look at Priapus, since they are Yin and Yang, like Sun and Moon, Venus and Mars, Isis and Osiris, Kaali / Parvati / Sati and Shiva.

Black Moon Lilith (and that`s the one we are talking about, right? Not the asteroid Lilith?) is the apogee (the most distant point to earth), while Priapos is the perigee (the nearest point).

Well, like with the NN there`s an interpolated placement of Lilith and a true one. But unlike with the Nodes these degrees can vary very much like even a sign or so. In my own case the difference is not so huge: Interpolated Lilith is on 24° Aquarius and true Lilith is on 28° Lilith.
For Priapos I only found the interpolated placement on astrocom. In my case 00° Leo.
Both points are mostly in opposite or quinkunx-signs I think.

The SAbian for the interpolated Lilith is:
A butterfly with its right wing more perfectly formed.

For the true Lilith it is:
A butterfly emerging from a Chrysalis.

I think it is astonishing, that both times the Sabian has to do with butterflies.
Especially since once a friend of mine used to call me that. She was a strange girl, but she might have been onto something.
Well, but astrologically even more interesting is the fact that the butterfly is a symbol of the Psyche, and the asteroid Psyche is also on 24° Aquarius, conjunct my Lilith. So it`s safe to say, my Lilith seems to have something to do with butterflies. And I`ve always been a magnet to them. Really, they sit down onto my glasses, my hair, all around my head. It`s always been an amusement to my families.
But back to Lilith, I actually feel that both SAbians describe me very well. Actually they are describing a process I am going through. From relying on my reason, my mind towards an emerging of spirituality.

The Sabian for Priapos is:
Under emotional stress blood rushes to a man`s head.
It describes a feeling of powerlessness, of the urge for action with being restraint at the same time. And that is very much me, too.
I wonder where the true Priapos is and if it would also reflect some kind of process like my Lilith-positions do.

posted December 01, 2007 06:44 AM              

It sais that Lilith is the point of fascination,where a person feels the emotional urge to grow beyond themselves. It`s the point where a person has much power, but often decides to suppress the power. Or she exaggerates the urge to be independent, which often forces her to be distant to other people.

Priapus now is a point, where you feel rather powerless. But at this point you have a strong capability and longing to merge with others, to feel for them, to develop empathy and basically it`s the point where oyu can adapt to others to the point of losing yourself.

Priapus is also the god of health and fertility (son of Venus and Bacchus / Dionysos). And it seems, according to mythology, he was having a constant erection. Well, what could you expect of a God, who is son of the goddess of erotic love and the god of extasy? lol
But I think it just symbolizes that he is very much in touch with the earth, with all instincts, with a strong desire to merge and become ONE with earth / life.

Maybe the difference between Lilith and Priapus is like this:
Both are driven by very strong desires.
But Lilith demands to be equal, independent, to voluntarily turn to someone, or else she will repell or be repelled. She can`t make any compromises. In the best sense she`s painfully truthful, and she makes great sacrifices (like being rejected from society) to maintain her independence.

Priapos on the other hand has such a great need to merge, that he will sacrifice the truth for it. He will make any compromises that are necessary to be close to someone. But since PRiapos is also a male God, he seems to be also prone to become sexually violent or absusive, to force closeness to his "object of affection".
At least the myth tell about him attempting to rape at least two goddesses / nymphs. But everytime the rape has been interrupted, before it could be done, and Priapus has been kicked out.
He is a nasty little god, isn`t he? At least int he myth.
But on the positive side he has a very direct access to his fertility and lust.

I`m not really sure what to make of it astrologically. But maybe Priapus depicts a point in the horoscope where there is an overwhelming urge to merge, which may become so overwhelming and desperate that you may humilate yourself, by committing really low acts (be they destructive towards others as in an attempted rape. or be they selfdestructive, by "offering" yourself, even if oyu know that you will never get back enough, so that you will be satisfied; the willingness to live a lie just to feel the illusion of merging.)

But I think there must also be a positive way to see Priapus and Lilith. Maybe Priapus can offer that empathy like it has been said in that article I mentioned.

posted December 01, 2007 07:45 AM              

Priapus falls into Leo into my 8th house and is square Uranus and opposite dr Pluto.

It seems, Uranus plays an important part here, since it`s conjuncting both Lilith and Priapus, and Lilith is also in the sign of Aquarius and Priapus in Leo, so the Aquarius-Leo-axis is emphasised again.

And yes, it`s true, I`ve always been the independent one, the detached one. I rather stay on the outside, a detached spectator of the show, analyzing and thinking and writing (that would be the 3rd house then I guess - draconic Lilith is also in Gemini). Noone ever managed to restrain my thoughts or opinions,e ven though I learned that I better not voice EVERYTHING I think, because it sometimes is so unsuitable for the society I am living in. For example, when I started doing astrology (Uranus again?), I had to fight very hard for it, for acceptance of my family, of everyone around it. I would lie if I said the incapibility of others to understand me didn`t hurt me; but despite being hurt I never gave it up. It would have meant to give a part of myself up.
Same goes for my love of the musical-theatre; I was the one who introduced my family and friends to it, and in the end I convinced several of them that it`s not all that bad. But they only accepted it when a larger part of society began to like going to musicals, too. And then they were kinda surprised and said: "You were right all along." But the fights I`ve had! The fights I still have when I dare to go to a musical or film more than once (waste of time is what I hear the most).
But yes, I can see where my Lilith plays out.
Even though I admit it sometimes, I keep quiet, even though I know I probably should speak up. The interesting thing is I can speak up for others and I can sometimes - often convince people of a good cause. I remember when I was 10 or 11, I was giving a speech in front of class and convinced the whole class to donate a large amount of money to a good cause, helping children who are having cancer.
My teacher was very surprised about this, because I was always the quiet, the shy one. But if it`s important, it seems my words have some power.
But to speak up for my own cause?
Forget it. Doesn`t work for me. lol

Another fascet of such an Uranian Lilith maybe is the fact that I do have some difficulties to accept and express my own feminine side.
I can use my thoughts and analysis-skills to suppress anything emotional, to rationalize every feeling, until it seems that I don`t have one.
Oh and of course, I don`t have physical needs either. As a true Aquarius (living in arrogant selfdenial) I am satisfied with living in my mind.

And then there comes Priapus into play. In Leo. In 8th house. SEems there are some rather strong urges to merge hidden somewhere in my psyche.
And since Priapus squares Uranus and opposes dr Pluto, it might surface in rather unpredictable, vehement ways.

And now there comes this man into play, this singer I have been thinking about such a lot. In a way my attraction to him seems to be a LIlith- Priapus-story. And surprise, surprise, like me he has some real troubles with his own Lilith-Priapus.

His Lilith in Pisces is conjunct his Saturn and Chiron and opposite his Uranus, Pluto and Priapus.
It kinda makes sense that he`s gay, doesn`t it? With a Lilith under such tension, phew! And Priapus is in the mix, too.
Ouch. Seems the female as well as the male principle are tied with some psychological woundings he has inside.

The common thing we have is the combination of Lilith with Uranus and Priapus with Uranus and Pluto.

But even more than that, some of my planets fall into that combination, too.
My draconic Mars and draconic ASC are conjunct his Lilith, SAturn and Chiron and opposite his Uranus, Pluto and Priapus (of course means that his Uranus, Pluto and Priapus are conjunct my dr DSC - and boy did he shake my soul!).
This opposition is square to his draconic Juno in Gemini and also squares my tropical Sun and Mercury on the GC.
And that Sun/Mercury-conjunction on mine falls exactly onto the empty spot, making this configuration a Grand Cross. I`ts like I`m a piece of the puzzle. lol
And oh surprise, it all became so obsessive when Transit Pluto started conjuncting my Sun and Mercury and our Composite Sun, which is also there.

Other intersting conjunctions / Oppositions are:

his dr Lilith / dr Saturn / dr Chiron opposes my dr Chiron

his dr Priapus conjuncts my dr Chiron

my Lilith opposes his dr Mars
my Lilith conjuncts his dr Valentine

my dr Lilith opposies his MErcury and Osiris
my dr Lilith conjuncts his dr Jupiter and dr Karma

my Priapus conjuncts his Jupiter and Karma
my Priapus conjuncts his dr Siva
my Priapus conjuncts his dr Psyche

my dr Priapus conjuncts his NEptune
my dr Priapus conjuncts his dr Eros

Most of those aspects are very exact.

I`m not sure what that all means, but as I said, it does feel like a Lilith-Priapus-story to me, from my part I mean.
Interesting my Lilith and my Priapus both are tied to his Karma.
And his Lilith and Priapus are both tied to my Chiron.
Hmm.

Has anyone an idea, how to interprete that?

posted December 01, 2007 07:47 AM              

the true black Moon Lilith is h13, while Priapus is h21 I think. It`s listed under the hypothetical objects / planets, since both are only calculated points.

posted December 01, 2007 10:02 AM            

My Black Moon Lilith (the h13: osc) conjuncts my DC at 0 degrees, squares Karma at 0 deg, and Jupiter (2 deg) and squares Isis/Osiris (1 deg).

My Priapus (h21: intp.) is in my 6th house and conjuncts the Lilith that Astro.com lists with their asteroids by 2 deg, and sextiles my moon at 0 deg.

Sounds loverly...

8th

posted December 01, 2007 09:38 PM              

The Pope Blessing The Faithful

and for the oppsn
29-30 deg Gemini

A Parade Of Bathing Beauties Before Large Beach Crowds

posted December 02, 2007 07:19 AM              

I`m sorry, but I must have given you the wrong "code" for Priapus. It`s actually h22; h21 is the true Lilith, which means your mean and true Lilith are on exactly the same spot,w hich doesn`t happen all that often.

Also I noticed that all your mentioned objects are widely conjuncting / opposing my Sun/ Mercury-conjunction on 26° Sagittarius. Interesting.
No wonder you were the one who introduced me to the meaning of Isis and Kaali and helped me understand it a bit better.

I like your Sabian for Lilith.

posted December 02, 2007 11:04 AM            

all the heavenly bodies have planetary nodes and perigree/apogee and perihelion/aphelion

Black Moon Lilith is the lunar apogee, and so its the point of the orbit where it's farthest from the Earth. The lunar perigree is the point of the orbit where it's closest to the Earth.

Because its the lunar apogee/perigree axis, I think that naming it Lilith is taking away from or denying the lunar symbolism.
My Sun is conjunct the true lunar apogee with 22 minutes of arc,and so the Sun is fused with lunar symbolism. My Sun trines Moon with 2'10 orb. So with my Sun trine Moon and conjunct its apogee/oppose its perigree, I am strongly connected to the lunar symbolism like the feminine archetype,and I do have strong feminine traits for a male that have led to problems for me. With Sun as the father,with the apogee/perigree connection,my father had strong feminine traits too and they probably led him to have problems in society.

The point of the orbit of a planet closest to the earth is perigree and the farthest point away from the planet is apogee. Some astrologers use the perigree/apogee of other planets too when using geocentric(earth-centered)chart.

The point of the orbit of a planet closest to the Sun is perihelion and the farthest point away from the Sun is aphelion. Some astrologers use perihelion/aphelion of other planets too when using heliocentric(Sun-centered)chart.

My Mercury is conjunct its Apogee in Geocentric chart. Mercury is conjunct its Aphelion/oppose its Perihelion in Heliocentric Chart. These configurations indicate strong Mercurial symbolism but also problematic too.

Astronomically oriented Astrologers told me that you can use all the Ptolemaic Aspects with the perigree/apogee and the perihelion/aphelion axises

here is a site that shows perihelion/aphelion http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/physical_science/physi cs/mechanics/orbit/perihelion_aphelion.html&edu=high

The terms perihelion and aphelion apply specifically to objects orbiting the Sun. There are similar terms for the closest and furthest points in orbits around other bodies, such as Earth, the Moon, and other planets and stars. The most commonly used are:

* Earth - perigee and apogee
* Moon - perilune (or periselene) and apolune (or aposelene)
* a star - periastron and apastron
* Jupiter - perijove and apojove
* a generic object - periapsis or apoapsis

Kepler software calculates apogee/perigree of the Moon and planets and aphelion/perihelion of the planets.

Jonathan Dunn's ephemeral calculates the perigree/perigree of the Moon and other heavenly bodies including even minor planets like asteroids,centaurs,kuiper belt objects. http://www.megadelfi.com/~jonathan/pos/

posted December 02, 2007 03:17 PM              

No i ubderstood why you asked Venus

DD wHAT a great research you did and the conclusion youve made is impressive!

JOhny+s PRIAPUS is 20 cancer:

" Venetian gondoliers in a serenade." - what a nice picture! I once dreamt we were in a gondolier in Venice and then went to a tea shop hihihi

OSC APOGEE - 3 Cap
" The human soul, in its eagerness for new experiences, seeks embodiment" -dont know what means to say here..

Intp APOGEE - 9 Cap
" An angel comes carrying a harp." - he´s my dear angel all right

My PRIAPUS - 26 Leo
" After heavy storms a rainbow appears." - i cant really see here whats my vulnerability...hmm may be my idealistic personality? When im in the clouds i dont see the storms comming and then..BUMP into my face?

OSC APOGEE - 9 Pisces
"The race begins: intent on outdistancing his rivals, a jockey spurs his horse to great speed" - well..may be my

INTP APOGEE - 15 Aqua
" Two lovebirds sitting on a fence and singing happily." - this image is too way sweet to be considered a dark side ...?

posted December 03, 2007 10:55 AM            

In geocentric chart, the perigree/apogee axis of Jupiter and beyond relate to the collective.....the same with the geocentric nodes

posted December 04, 2007 12:32 PM            

Personally,I use the osculating lunar apogee just like I use the true lunar node which is the same as osculating lunar node. I use the osculating perigree/apogee and nodes of the heavenly bodies.

posted December 04, 2007 12:44 PM              

I also agree to a certain extent on your take on the symbolism. That it`s all lunar symbolism.
Maybe the extra labelling as Lilith reminds us a little that "Luna has teeth"; we seem to forget that someone and only see the caring, sweet, moody side of the moon. But there`s more to it, the dark side for example, which for me is just like Lilith has been described.

So in a way the Moon includes Lilith as well as Eve, psychologically, and that gives a rather complete picture of the feminine side of everyone, at least in my opinion. We have both of these sides, and maybe it`s just time to remember the powerful, long suppressed (Lilith) side of the Moon in us.
At least for me this is true.

Thank you also for your explanation on the nodes. I`m still chewing on those.

posted December 23, 2007 11:17 AM            

Priapus rules masculine energy, biological instincts, unconscious repression; also represents the Kundalini energy, the Serpent, the symbol of Temptation. In female's chart it is said to represent the astro-erogenous zone/

posted December 23, 2007 12:37 PM            

Referring to the lunar perigree as priapus and say that it has to do with male energy takes away from the lunar symbolism of the lunar perigree.

Lunar perigree is the closest point of the moon's orbit to the earth. If anything,it would seem that would be a strong lunar symbolism,and have a feminine energy.

A conjunction to the perigree or its heliocentric equivalent perihelion of an object would seem that it would relate to symbolism of that object...the same thing with apogee or its heliocentric equivalent,aphelion.

all the 12th harmonic aspects can be used with those points too just like they can be used with the nodes.

You can get the calculations for the perigree/apogee and the perihelion/aphelion axis here http://www.megadelfi.com/~jonathan/pos/

The geocentric option is the default. the perigree/apogee will be listed as perihelion/aphelion. if you look at the lunar apogee and the placement of black moon is exact,that's because lunar apogee is the black moon.