posted December 25, 2007 02:29 PM              

Pluto: transformation, regeneration, endings, beginnings, deep spiritual/psychological intensity (not the same as emotional intensity), power of self determination and spiritual will, house it occupies is about as important as the sun/moon and nodes in terms of defining a mode of being for generating a "new self."

Scorpio: passionate, sexual, sensitive, deeply relationship oriented, suspicious, sharing resources with close ones, intensely loyal, committed, persistent, strategic, intuitive, cautious, sensual, resourceful

Pluto is not sensual, sexual, concerned with resources or committments. It is not loyal or cautious. None of these things consistently come up for people in pluto transits.

Pluto's mode of action is spiritual and psychological - often in a way that challenges the person to accept the process without fully understanding it. This is not something associated with scorpio. Scorpios succeed most often by taking calculated risks - not trusting what they do not know.

Pluto is a universal and transpersonal energy. It can function solely within an individual, in relationships or in groups and societies. Scorpio is fundamentally about relationships.

Pluto is about the core, irreducible point of "I-ness" in the soul. In mystical traditions like Kabbalah it is associated with the very beginning, first point of light of emanation. Scorpio is fundamentally about deep emotional relating and merging with another not solitariness. It is the last of the "relational" signs - starting with leo.

posted December 25, 2007 04:02 PM              

------------------
Capricorn sun / Scorpio rising / Sagittarius moon

posted December 25, 2007 04:47 PM            

The Phoenix is thought to be the highest form of Scorpio, and it fits right in with Pluto.

I think Scorpio is misunderstood.

posted December 25, 2007 05:27 PM              

I see them as two distinctly dif modes of operation. Pluto is spiritual and universally directed. Pluto's placement makes no sense after neptune if it goes with scorpio. Scorpio is emotional and relationship directed.

posted December 25, 2007 07:46 PM            

also pluto has it's challenging traits too...power issues,paranoia,trust issues,suspicion are well known manifestions of pluto being misused.

also it varies how astrologers view Pluto,but some do view Pluto as sexual too...I think that it has to do with the intensity as well as the penetration,as well as letting go of stuff...like with sex,it can be eliminating of build up from sexual fluids. Some people think that sex can be therapeutic. That's why some remark to some people as being aggressive or have anger issues about them having to "get laid" I don't really agree with that philosophy myself. Also rape is form of power more than sex but it does involving sexual act. Scorpio is a sign associated with sex,but it is also sign associated with power. Both Pluto and Scorpio can be secretive but also uncover secrets too.

Not all Scorpios are into sex.....many can be celibate...they can transcend the desire for sex and channel into other areas like creativity,spirituality....I feel that it's the intensity of the emotions that are very connected to the sexuality of the Scorpio. The intensity of the emotions doesn't have to manifest into sex...it can manifest into numerous things....even things like research,investigating things.

posted December 25, 2007 09:44 PM            

I agree with you on some points and disagree on others.

There is a BIG difference between those with Planets in SCORPIO, and those people with Planets aspecting PLUTO. For one, Pluto is NOT Scorpio. The sign Scorpio is representative of a type of specific energy that most people have come to associate with the Planet Pluto, however, that's not to say that Pluto and Scorpio are one in the same.

I'm a Pluto person. I say this not because I have many planets in Scorpio. But because I have many planets aspecting Pluto. For one, my Sun is conjunct Pluto. My Moon is square Pluto, my Mars is square Pluto. My chart ruler is trine Pluto, the list goes on. These aspects do not make me Scorpio-like. They tend to influence me in a way that can be best associated with the Planet Pluto.

For a long time, I've seen a distinct difference between Scorpio and Pluto. Not so much as to say they're entirely different, but I see that people use them in a way that interchanges and substitutes one for another, when really, they're way off.

You're right- Pluto is a highly spiritually developed and universally directed planet as it should logically be due to its placement in the solar system and relationship to other planets. Pluto is all about universal transformations, not the great awakenings Uranus brings about, but mass destruction from the eventual greater good. It's the old tear down everything in order to evolve story. I mean, if Neptune is associated with religion, spirituality, heaven, angels and all that good stuff, then by God...Pluto must be the CREATOR himself. You would think...

Pluto works differently, (in my opinion) in that, someone with the Moon conjunct Pluto doesn't just get jealous and super possessive. Their life is marked by intensely extreme spiritual experience (whether it be the complete absence/rejection of life itself or the obsessive reverence of all living things). Pluto isn't about jealousy and secretiveness. It's about death, rebirth, and evolution. People with the Sun and/or Moon in aspect to Pluto will go through the many transformations, "mini deaths", and evolutions in their lives. Their lives will be marked by extreme circumstance after extreme circumstance...whether projected or acted out, that literally seem to put them in situations that are life (as they know it) vs. death (complete and utter change where ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is the same).

People with the Sun/Moon in Scorpio handle this energy a bit differently in that they feel the passion and the intensity associated with the concept of Pluto however these actual themes and occurrences may not have actually directly occured in their lives. Of course this depends on other aspects...

Then there's your take on Scorpio I mildly disagree with. Yes, the sign is known for emotions...mainly because it is a *water* sign. Most people of all signs, at all times, have some issues with their emotions. After all, emotions are what make us human beings after all and are what set us apart from all over species on Earth. To say Scorpio can't be related to Pluto because of it's association with emotion is kind of a bogus statement. Secondly, relationship oriented? Is this because it is the next after Libra, the sign that is connotated with relationships? I don't think that RELATIONSHIPS are the actual focus so much as the intimacy. Intimacy at it's root being the absolute ability to completely immerse yourself with one another and "feel" an incredible closeness. Isn't intimacy related to spirituality? You cannot be spiritually developed without being intimately connected to your beliefs. Pluto = Mass transformation, upheavals, and regeneration. As I stated before humans are emotional beings. We can train ourselves to be logical, but at the end of the day, we're still as emotional as the next person beside us. As human beings we cannot TRULY transform without going through some kind of emotional upset/mass shock/disturbance. Whether it be positive or negative, it's massive....massive inspiration, a massive sense of helplessness....and phenomenally large exposure to something that stirs us, for better or worse. If we had no emotions, it wouldn't matter, would it?

Transformation itself is a concept. The amount of passion and drama that Scorpio influenced (not to be confused with Pluto-influenced) people thrust, project, and incorporate into their daily lives is tremendous. Living day to day with such dramatic highs and lows, is only a catalyst to change. We change most when we are constantly not just learning to walk on our own two feet, but learning harsh, painful consequences every time we fall.

Now you know quite a bit about astrology- what's the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of a sign of fixed quality. The abhorrence to change. So why would you see Scorpios or any fixed sign in that matter, making CHANGE and TRANSFORMATION the focus of their lives. You wouldn't...9 times out of 10, you'll see a fixed sign of any nature (other aspects/signs/planets permitting of course) doing everything in their power to keep things the way they are. With fixed signs, the more tightly you hold onto something, the more control you have over it.

Just as...

Taurus holds onto its material stuff and its values
Leo holds onto its pride and never loses its sense of self
Scorpio holds onto its emotional resources and the experiences it has accumulated that give it a better knowledge/understanding of its strength and knowledge how to survive (adaptation = emotional evolution)
Aquarius holds onto its knowledge and the absolute freedom that comes with being an individual in the very sense of the word...

Maybe thats why it appears to you that Scorpios are relationship oriented and tied down by their emotions. But remember, this is a sign of depth for a reason.

posted December 26, 2007 12:28 AM            

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

I think that it could be hard for me to separate Pluto from Scorpio in my chart.

Sun in Scorpio contraparallel Pluto - '42
Mercury in Scorpio sextile South Pluto Node - '02
Venus in Scorpio trine North Pluto Node - '30

posted December 26, 2007 01:11 AM            

I checked out Christopher Reeve's chart.
I don't know why she focused on Aries in regards to Sports. Sagittarius is also a sign associated with adventure. It is the centaur which has half the body of a horse. Futhermore, Christopher Reeve's Moon is conjunct Mars in Sagittarius with 5'43 orb. Moon conjunct Mars can be energetic,very active,and feel the need to be competitive. He has Mars quincunx Uranus with only 6 minutes of arc,and that's an aspect that can indicate strong potential for accidents. It can be very erratic and impulsive too.
His Mars placed in 5th house which is a house associated wtih amusement,gambling,and speculation,and that could fit in with sports, and it is even trine his Ascendant and Pluto. His 5th house ruler,Jupiter is also square his Ascendant and Pluto too,and that could be an indicator of sportsman.

Geocentric Planetary Nodes:
North Mars Node square Sun with only 2 minutes of arc and Mercury with 37 minutes of arc. North Mars Node strong in his chart can indicate being energetic,very active,and competitive.
North Uranus Node is oppose Mars with 1'37 orb and South Uranus Node is conjunct Moon with 1'35 orb and quincunx Midheaven with 29 minutes of arc and that can fit in with accidents.

Midpoints:
Mars/Uranus midpoint conjunct Sun with 1'02 orb and Mercury with 27 minutes of arc can indicate being energetic,very active,impulsive, and high degree of potential for accidents.

another thing to is that Pluto is in 1st house. The 1st house is associated with Aries. The 12 houses correspond with the 12 signs of the zodiac.
That's why some astrologers have books with cookbook intepretations of planet in sign and planet in house with the same interpretation. Take Jeffrey Wolf Green's book on Pluto. He has Pluto in 1st and Pluto in Aries under the same interpretation....Pluto in 2nd and Pluto in Taurus same interpretation and so on.

posted December 26, 2007 03:59 AM            

That makes sense.

I have Moon quincunx Pluto and conjunct the 8th house ruler(Mars). I even have Moon semisquare Geocentric South Pluto Node with 7 minutes of arc. I am male. My mother has Moon in Scorpio square Pluto. She even has Moon trine trine Geocentric North Pluto Node with 11 minutes of arc and sextile Geocentric South Pluto Node with 1'37 orb. My maternal grandfather had Moon trine Pluto. My maternal grandmother had Moon sextile Pluto. She even has Moon trine Geocentric South Pluto Node with 33 minutes of arc.

My girlfriend has Moon in Scorpio in 7th/8th conjunct 8th house ruler Pluto,and her mother has Moon sextile Pluto. Her father has Moon in Scorpio.

I definitely see some astrogenetics going on here.

But I see it with the Sun too

I have Sun in Scorpio contraparallel Pluto. My father had Sun contrapararallel Pluto. My mother has Sun sextile/parallel Pluto. My maternal grandfather had Sun in 8th parallel Pluto and conjunct 8th house ruler(Mercury)

my mother's paternal halfsiblings:
my mother is the oldest...I am listing the oldest to youngest

My Aunt Isabel has Sun trine Pluto and oppose 8th house ruler(Moon)
My Uncle Dino has Sun in Scorpio square 8th house ruler(Moon)
My Uncle Eddie has Sun conjunct Pluto and sextile 8th house ruler(Neptune)
My Aunt Dede has Sun in Scorpio sextile Geocentric South Pluto Node with 1'18 orb

as you see, all 5 of my paternal grandfather's children have either Sun in Scorpio,Sun-Pluto,and/or Sun-8th house ruler aspect, even Geocentric Pluto Node which has affinity with my grandfather's Sun in 8th parallel Pluto and conjunct 8th house ruler(Mercury)

My mother ended up being with a man that had a Sun-Pluto declination aspect like her father and together became parents of a Sun in Scorpio contraparallel Pluto son.

posted December 26, 2007 04:45 PM            

It is in mine. We all have different planets, positions, and aspects. Perhaps there are other influences affect the Scorpios you have come into contact with making it hard to see this theme.

Also, given the secretive nature of Scorpio, I would be careful before assuming you know these Scorpios as well as you believe you do. All things considered, no one in my life knows the true on goings in my life. I might share a snippet or two at some point after the fact, but that is the closest it comes. Perhaps not the best way, but it is what feels comfortable and safe to me.

Regeneration is a major theme in my life. But, only I know enough about my entire life to be able to easily make that connection.

Take it for what you will, but I disagree with you...

posted December 26, 2007 05:53 PM            

exactly...many Scorpios can be misunderstood because they tend to be very complexed. This is definitely true for me. I kept a lot of things secret from people like my being abused by my parents as well as my special education past.

posted December 26, 2007 10:53 PM              

Like Glaucus and alcheme, my life is , in a way, dedicated to the regeneration of my SELF , if that makes sense..and when I want to change things, I get rid of the previous state totally..I "destroy" it, in order to start something new. I do this with even the simplest things.

------------------
Capricorn sun / Scorpio rising / Sagittarius moon

posted December 27, 2007 04:18 AM            

quote:

---

So why would you see Scorpios or any fixed sign in that matter, making CHANGE and TRANSFORMATION the focus of their lives. You wouldn't...9 times out of 10, you'll see a fixed sign of any nature (other aspects/signs/planets permitting of course) doing everything in their power to keep things the way they are.

---

Fixity hasn't been my path at all...when I was younger, I would actually force change in my life. To stay the same, live in the same place for too long, do the same thing for too long, was like a slow death after a while.

Granted, Pluto is a singleton in my chart, in terms of being my only planet in a mutable sign (Virgo), but I put more credence in the house in which Pluto lies than the sign (the only planet in a mutable house).

Actually, every Scorp I can think of that I know personally has had a life full of transformative events and often explosive, sudden change. In my xp the fixed signs have some quality of stubbornness to them, not an outright resistance to change. I've known Cappys w/ Cappy-heavy charts that were far more resistant to change than the most stubborn Taurus' I've met.

The one area where I would have to admit I was fixed/resistant to change, was with regards to relationships...and I see it with a lot of my fellow Scorps. Once we're all in, we won't let go quite often until we're nearly destroyed from the experience. But then there's that renewal thing all over again...we rise from the ashes of our former emotional selves and (ideally) move on.

I think that correlates to whomever said that Scorps were all about relationships...I think there is some truth to that, because I think that Leo/Virgo/Libra/Scorp are about the element's expression with others, as opposed to Aries/Tau/Gem/Cancer which are more about the element's expression as one/self and the last four signs which seem to be more about an element's expression/relation to the larger whole.

So thinking that just because we're a fixed sign means that transformation and change wouldn't be a focus of our lives is IMHO not fully understanding the nature of fixity. As it relates to Scorp anyway.

posted December 27, 2007 06:52 AM            

Much like you, Isis, I've got 5 planets in Scorpio, at least 6 planets aspecting Pluto, All of my inner planets, plus Pluto in fixed signs and houses, the whole shabang....but that doesn't mean anything if I choose to act out a less FIXED aspect of my personality. I mean according to my chart, I should be the most stubborn son of a ***** around (and I can be). But I'm also quite vacillating and can't hold onto a thing, whether it be an opinion, relationship, w/e. I need to make constant changes in my life or I'd be extremely bored and I wouldn't grow as a person.

Fixity isn't meant to be take like you literally resist change. It's also not something you wake up and think "I'm going to keep everything from changing". It's something that just is, kind of like Scorpio's relationship with transformation. Fixed doesn't mean unchanging. Fixed means steadiness, stability, maintenance, etc. Not every Taurus is going to be as stubborn and unchanging as the next, and not every Scorpio is going to be as possessive and controlling as the next.

Generally, that which I wrote about Fixity and Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius stands for what each sign stands for through interpretation.

And I honestly think it's not relationships but intimacy. Relationships are the fastest and easiest and most obvious way to find that intimacy Scorpio's crave which is why they may seem more "relationship" oriented.

But when I think of relationship-oriented, I think of Libra...someone in relationships for the sole sake of being with or partnered with someone else. That's not a Scorpio thing.

Of course everyone's different here. I mean if we look at this as a personal experience kind of thing, we'd be here all day with all kinds of different ideas and angles. But objectively speaking, if you think about it...does Scorpio seek a mate for the sake of being in a relationship or do they seek depth and profoundity of purpose? Do they seek being partnered to become an "us" or do they seek sharing their entire self with something/someone as fully and whole heartedly as possible?

Idk, that to me screams intimacy...

posted December 27, 2007 09:19 AM            

play devil advocates here,

Some people who have planets in tropical Scorpio might have them in Libra constellation,and I am not talking about Sidereal Zodiac which is different.

My Mercury and Venus are in tropical Scorpio,but they are in the constellation of Libra. My Mercury is even in alignment(conjunct my ecliptic longitude) the beta star of Libra,Zuben Eschamali, the Southern Scales.

My Sun is in tropical Scorpio,but it is in the constellation of Virgo with the alpha star of Virgo, Spica as my heliacal rising star.

Libra was once part of the Scorpion constellation as the Scorpion's Claws too.

There could be an intensity that Libra has but it's overlooked.

That's just my opinion.

I have been thinking of moving away from the tropical zodiac and utilizing the actual constellations.

posted December 27, 2007 10:20 PM            

quote:

---

Fixity isn't meant to be take like you literally resist change.

---

quote:

---

So why would you see Scorpios or any fixed sign in that matter, making CHANGE and TRANSFORMATION the focus of their lives. You wouldn't...9 times out of 10, you'll see a fixed sign of any nature (other aspects/signs/planets permitting of course) doing everything in their power to keep things the way they are.

---

I'm kinda confused because your statements seem to contradict each other. On one hand, "9 times out of 10 we'll do everything in our power to keep things the way they are", and on the other, "fixity isn't meant to be taken that one literally resists change".

I guess my point was the same that you came to later in your last post: that fixed doesn't mean unchanging. It just that you seemed to say fixed=resistant to change in the original post, the "9 times out of 10" thing, and that was what I was addressing.

With regards to the relationships thing, I don't think of a relationship as it relates to what we've been talking about, as only a one on one love thing...the idea that's conjured up by Libra - it's relating to others, not as a whole (humanity) but as individuals, a cross between the singularity of expression in the first four signs, and the humanistic level of expression of the last four.

Perhaps intimacy is a better word to use, more specific, although most Scorps I've come across don't conjure up the word intimacy in my mind, because although Scorps are supposed to have a deep understanding of it, most of us have a real fear of it - like anyone I guess - except that we're supposed to be all about it. I've yet to meet a Scorp who doesn't fail at that task abysmally, if for no other reason than because it's hard to get intimate w/ someone, on any level, when you rub them the wrong way, and we Scorps do seem to often be unintentionally rubbing people the wrong way. LOL

But that comes back to the fact that our individual experiences with others don't paint the whole - but what else have we often got to judge by but our experiences?

But I think you do have a point, I think if Libra's do want relationships just for the sake of being partnered w/ someone else (which I think is actually kinda selling Libras short), Scorpios long to connect on a deep level, and not just romantically.

Personally, I'm enjoying this conversation immensely because it helps me to further understand the nature of the whole Scorpionic/Plutonian thing. Everyone's insight is really interesting. I'm the first to admit I'm no astrology expert. I didn't want for this to become a 'who's right/wrong thing', and my apologies if my comment about not understanding the nature of fixity came across that way or put anyone in a position to be on the defensive.

posted December 28, 2007 07:51 AM              

Great insight, very interesting. I have many Pluto aspects and Mars as water singleton in Scorpio, so I *think* I kind of know what you are talking about. Having Plutonic-planets certainly seems to be quite different from Scorpionic planets.

There is one thing I disagree with:

quote:

---

Pluto is not sensual, sexual, concerned with resources or committments. It is not loyal or cautious. None of these things consistently come up for people in pluto transits.

---

I feel Pluto IS connected with resources. Not in the sense of shared resources with other people, but resources you can reach for within one self. A personal well, if you like. Does it make any sense?

Aen

posted December 28, 2007 07:54 AM            

I think this is a great topic and that LL hasn't had many "great" topics floating at the top of its forums for a while

Yea, I know I can be confusing when I relay a message, I should have specified. I mean, I know that not every fixed sign is as fixed as the textbooks like to make us seem. But for a general picture and understanding of how the fixed mode works, I used that 9 out of 10 example.

I also realized I sold Libras a littttttttttttttle short with that comment so I kinda wanna reel back on that. What I meant more of was just that I don't think Scorpios are "relationship oriented" as the term literally suggests. I used Libra solely because Libra is the sign of relationships, but thats not to say they lack any depth cuz Venus can surprise sometimes

I too, find it interesting how Scorpio is supposed to be about intimacy and so many Scorps I know are terribly afraid of it. Hell, I'll be the first to admit I am (it's probably due to strong Uranus influence too).

Also if you think about it, is any sign really all about what they're supposed to signify? I know this is highly generalized....but I'll use an example. I know a girl with 7 planets in Aquarius. Sure she likes her friends, and is quite different. But she's the clingiest, most emotional, family obsessed, romantic, Anti-Textbook Aquarius I've ever known. Friends and freedom are definitely not the center of her life, she has major issues keeping friends around and GIVING people freedom

Sometimes aspects modify so much that it can dramatically alter the sign's typical expression. So, long story short, some Scorpios may be more into their intimacy/passion thing than others who could do without.

posted December 28, 2007 08:08 AM              

quote:

---

Pluto works differently, (in my opinion) in that, someone with the Moon conjunct Pluto doesn't just get jealous and super possessive. Their life is marked by intensely extreme spiritual experience (whether it be the complete absence/rejection of life itself or the obsessive reverence of all living things).

---

Oh, yes.

quote:

---

As human beings we cannot TRULY transform without going through some kind of emotional upset/mass shock/disturbance. Whether it be positive or negative, it's massive....massive inspiration, a massive sense of helplessness....and phenomenally large exposure to something that stirs us, for better or worse. If we had no emotions, it wouldn't matter, would it?

---

Love and joy are not emotions but much sterner stuff. I can't prove it, but I guess that if you go deep enough into either of them, you know it is so. But as far as emotions go, they can be transformed. Personally, I consider transformation of emotions (and therefore getting rid of them) an utterly Plutonic thing.

posted December 28, 2007 03:49 PM            

Since learning about my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD, those are the first that I let people know about me because those are things that are major life themes because they affected every area in my life. Besides,I am an advocate/activist in regards to those things,and I feel that is my main life purpose.

I am most fortunate to find a woman that loves me for who/what I am as I love for her who/whatshe is,and she's not neurodivergent like me. She's neurotypical. Because I have problems with communications(receptive-expressive language overall),she and I have had some communications problems,but we end up overcoming them. Patience and perseverance have helped our relationship.

here are some urls to sites in regards to dealing with learning disabilities in relationships http://www.ncld.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=419
http://www.ldonline.org/article/6007
http://www.ncld.org/content/view/607/480/